What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

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Anacreon
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What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby Anacreon » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:51 pm

I assume Illinois and WUSTL are peer schools in the Illinois market but correct me if I'm mistaken. So, I guess I'm not really trying to separate the schools but rather just wanting to get an inclusive analysis.

What are the career prospects for median students at these schools in Chicago? Can an 'average' student from one of these schools score a market paying job? If not, what should they expect? I'm looking for examples; anecdotal evidence OK.

All voices welcomed.

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, clerkship, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

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xcountryjunkie
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby xcountryjunkie » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:58 pm

Anonymous? Really?

dakatz
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby dakatz » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I assume Illinois and WUSTL are peer schools in the Illinois market but correct me if I'm mistaken. So, I guess I'm not really trying to separate the schools but rather just wanting to get an inclusive analysis.

What are the career prospects for median students at these schools in Chicago? Can an 'average' student from one of these schools score a market paying job? If not, what should they expect? I'm looking for examples; anecdotal evidence OK.

All voices welcomed.


I would imagine it would be VERY tough for a median student from either school to get a market paying job in Chicago absent some sort of amazing sort factor or connection in a firm. There are people in the top 30% struggling to find jobs by all accounts from schools in the 15-25 range. So median doesn't sound like a place you would want to be from either school.

StateSchoolSplitter
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby StateSchoolSplitter » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:03 pm

dakatz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I assume Illinois and WUSTL are peer schools in the Illinois market but correct me if I'm mistaken. So, I guess I'm not really trying to separate the schools but rather just wanting to get an inclusive analysis.

What are the career prospects for median students at these schools in Chicago? Can an 'average' student from one of these schools score a market paying job? If not, what should they expect? I'm looking for examples; anecdotal evidence OK.

All voices welcomed.


I would imagine it would be VERY tough for a median student from either school to get a market paying job in Chicago absent some sort of amazing sort factor or connection in a firm. There are people in the top 30% struggling to find jobs by all accounts from schools in the 15-25 range. So median doesn't sound like a place you would want to be from either school.


What do median students "get"?

dakatz
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby dakatz » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dakatz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I assume Illinois and WUSTL are peer schools in the Illinois market but correct me if I'm mistaken. So, I guess I'm not really trying to separate the schools but rather just wanting to get an inclusive analysis.

What are the career prospects for median students at these schools in Chicago? Can an 'average' student from one of these schools score a market paying job? If not, what should they expect? I'm looking for examples; anecdotal evidence OK.

All voices welcomed.


I would imagine it would be VERY tough for a median student from either school to get a market paying job in Chicago absent some sort of amazing sort factor or connection in a firm. There are people in the top 30% struggling to find jobs by all accounts from schools in the 15-25 range. So median doesn't sound like a place you would want to be from either school.


What do median students "get"?


I'd imagine that the majority of students who don't work for large firms end up with smaller firms, with public interest organizations, public defenders, etc. Its not like there aren't opportunities outside of large law firms. No one said a median student is screwed, especially not from a solid T25 school.

StateSchoolSplitter
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby StateSchoolSplitter » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:17 pm

dakatz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dakatz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I assume Illinois and WUSTL are peer schools in the Illinois market but correct me if I'm mistaken. So, I guess I'm not really trying to separate the schools but rather just wanting to get an inclusive analysis.

What are the career prospects for median students at these schools in Chicago? Can an 'average' student from one of these schools score a market paying job? If not, what should they expect? I'm looking for examples; anecdotal evidence OK.

All voices welcomed.


I would imagine it would be VERY tough for a median student from either school to get a market paying job in Chicago absent some sort of amazing sort factor or connection in a firm. There are people in the top 30% struggling to find jobs by all accounts from schools in the 15-25 range. So median doesn't sound like a place you would want to be from either school.


What do median students "get"?


I'd imagine that the majority of students who don't work for large firms end up with smaller firms, with public interest organizations, public defenders, etc. Its not like there aren't opportunities outside of large law firms. No one said a median student is screwed, especially not from a solid T25 school.


How have you racked up such a high post count without ever visiting TLS?

dakatz
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby dakatz » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:22 pm

Because TLS exists in a vacuum skewed completely toward one end of a spectrum that essentially discounts the existence of all other options. By spending some time in the real world, you come to see that the majority of things people say on here, while generally accurate, are often exaggerated. For example, I can point to a number of students who graduated last year from a T25 around median. Many of them are working in small firms with salaries between about 40K and 60K. By TLS standards, these students are screwed and have failed. But they seem to be relatively happy with what they are doing and have faith that they will move up. Again, it would be foolish to take the exaggerations on here as gospel.

But sure, if you want to adopt the TLS "big law or bust" mentality, then yes, those median students are screwed

StateSchoolSplitter
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby StateSchoolSplitter » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:24 pm

dakatz wrote:Because TLS exists in a vacuum skewed completely toward one end of a spectrum that essentially discounts the existence of all other options. By spending some time in the real world, you come to see that the majority of things people say on here, while generally accurate, are often exaggerated. For example, I can point to a number of students who graduated last year from a T25 around median. Many of them are working in small firms with salaries between about 40K and 60K. By TLS standards, these students are screwed and have failed. But they seem to be relatively happy with what they are doing and have faith that they will move up. Again, it would be foolish to take the exaggerations on here as gospel.

But sure, if you want to adopt the TLS "big law or bust" mentality, then yes, those median students are screwed


I'm curious how many of these students ended up in Chicago. 40-60k there isn't much.

09042014
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dakatz wrote:Because TLS exists in a vacuum skewed completely toward one end of a spectrum that essentially discounts the existence of all other options. By spending some time in the real world, you come to see that the majority of things people say on here, while generally accurate, are often exaggerated. For example, I can point to a number of students who graduated last year from a T25 around median. Many of them are working in small firms with salaries between about 40K and 60K. By TLS standards, these students are screwed and have failed. But they seem to be relatively happy with what they are doing and have faith that they will move up. Again, it would be foolish to take the exaggerations on here as gospel.

But sure, if you want to adopt the TLS "big law or bust" mentality, then yes, those median students are screwed


I'm curious how many of these students ended up in Chicago. 40-60k there isn't much.



60K is very comfortable, with no debt.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:56 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dakatz wrote:Because TLS exists in a vacuum skewed completely toward one end of a spectrum that essentially discounts the existence of all other options. By spending some time in the real world, you come to see that the majority of things people say on here, while generally accurate, are often exaggerated. For example, I can point to a number of students who graduated last year from a T25 around median. Many of them are working in small firms with salaries between about 40K and 60K. By TLS standards, these students are screwed and have failed. But they seem to be relatively happy with what they are doing and have faith that they will move up. Again, it would be foolish to take the exaggerations on here as gospel.

But sure, if you want to adopt the TLS "big law or bust" mentality, then yes, those median students are screwed


I'm curious how many of these students ended up in Chicago. 40-60k there isn't much.



60K is very comfortable, with no debt.


Assume around $120k worth.

09042014
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dakatz wrote:Because TLS exists in a vacuum skewed completely toward one end of a spectrum that essentially discounts the existence of all other options. By spending some time in the real world, you come to see that the majority of things people say on here, while generally accurate, are often exaggerated. For example, I can point to a number of students who graduated last year from a T25 around median. Many of them are working in small firms with salaries between about 40K and 60K. By TLS standards, these students are screwed and have failed. But they seem to be relatively happy with what they are doing and have faith that they will move up. Again, it would be foolish to take the exaggerations on here as gospel.

But sure, if you want to adopt the TLS "big law or bust" mentality, then yes, those median students are screwed


I'm curious how many of these students ended up in Chicago. 40-60k there isn't much.



60K is very comfortable, with no debt.


Assume around $120k worth.


1.5K a month in loan payments. It's doable, but it won't be great. You'll have to live in a shitty neighborhood and commute.

Anonymous User
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
60K is very comfortable, with no debt.


Assume around $120k worth.


1.5K a month in loan payments. It's doable, but it won't be great. You'll have to live in a shitty neighborhood and commute.


More than half are Federal Loans, for what that's worth.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:12 pm

Anacreon wrote:What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?


LOL

Anonymous User wrote:What do median students "get"?


Absent a good amount of luck, contacts, etc, they are not very easily finding paying legal jobs ITE. Things are rough out there. I'm in the c/o 2011, so things have most likely gotten better since my job hunt (there were literally 250 summer associate positions across all the Chicago NALP firms (including IP firms) last summer-- search under my moniker, I posted up a comprehesive chart a while ago listing all the employers and how many spots they hired, including a total tally for the past 3 years). But I still don't think a $40-60K job at median at a UIUC or WUSTL is even close to a sure thing. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I would not bank on it until the economy recovers (obviously if this is a "I'm considering going to law school next year or the year after that" type question, the economy most likley will have recovered by the time you gradaute).

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:29 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anacreon wrote:What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?


LOL

Anonymous User wrote:What do median students "get"?


Absent a good amount of luck, contacts, etc, they are not very easily finding paying legal jobs ITE. Things are rough out there. I'm in the c/o 2011, so things have most likely gotten better since my job hunt (there were literally 250 summer associate positions across all the Chicago NALP firms (including IP firms) last summer-- search under my moniker, I posted up a comprehesive chart a while ago listing all the employers and how many spots they hired, including a total tally for the past 3 years). But I still don't think a $40-60K job at median at a UIUC or WUSTL is even close to a sure thing. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I would not bank on it until the economy recovers (obviously if this is a "I'm considering going to law school next year or the year after that" type question, the economy most likley will have recovered by the time you gradaute).


I would be class of 2015.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby gabbagabba » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
60K is very comfortable, with no debt.


Assume around $120k worth.


1.5K a month in loan payments. It's doable, but it won't be great. You'll have to live in a shitty neighborhood and commute.


More than half are Federal Loans, for what that's worth.


Doesn't make much of a difference, really.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anacreon wrote:What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?


LOL

Anonymous User wrote:What do median students "get"?


Absent a good amount of luck, contacts, etc, they are not very easily finding paying legal jobs ITE. Things are rough out there. I'm in the c/o 2011, so things have most likely gotten better since my job hunt (there were literally 250 summer associate positions across all the Chicago NALP firms (including IP firms) last summer-- search under my moniker, I posted up a comprehesive chart a while ago listing all the employers and how many spots they hired, including a total tally for the past 3 years). But I still don't think a $40-60K job at median at a UIUC or WUSTL is even close to a sure thing. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I would not bank on it until the economy recovers (obviously if this is a "I'm considering going to law school next year or the year after that" type question, the economy most likley will have recovered by the time you gradaute).


I would be class of 2015.


Yeah, you'll be alright. I'd be surprised if there isn't pretty substantial recovery by fall 2013 (when you'll do OCI), and even if you miss it at OCI, I can't imagine the job market will be like it is now in 2015 (for a post-graduation job search) where median at a t25 = boned.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:21 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anacreon wrote:What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?


LOL

Anonymous User wrote:What do median students "get"?


Absent a good amount of luck, contacts, etc, they are not very easily finding paying legal jobs ITE. Things are rough out there. I'm in the c/o 2011, so things have most likely gotten better since my job hunt (there were literally 250 summer associate positions across all the Chicago NALP firms (including IP firms) last summer-- search under my moniker, I posted up a comprehesive chart a while ago listing all the employers and how many spots they hired, including a total tally for the past 3 years). But I still don't think a $40-60K job at median at a UIUC or WUSTL is even close to a sure thing. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I would not bank on it until the economy recovers (obviously if this is a "I'm considering going to law school next year or the year after that" type question, the economy most likley will have recovered by the time you gradaute).


I would be class of 2015.


Yeah, you'll be alright. I'd be surprised if there isn't pretty substantial recovery by fall 2013 (when you'll do OCI), and even if you miss it at OCI, I can't imagine the job market will be like it is now in 2015 (for a post-graduation job search) where median at a t25 = boned.


What were things like in the best of times for median Illini students? I figure by my OCI it will be somewhere between now and then.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:31 am

No one is paying $1500 in loans on a 60K salary......With IBR, you'd be paying about 600 tops. I think you could live a fine life in Chicago or most other cities with that salary and loan repayment burden.

09042014
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:No one is paying $1500 in loans on a 60K salary......With IBR, you'd be paying about 600 tops. I think you could live a fine life in Chicago or most other cities with that salary and loan repayment burden.


IBR isn't smart to use if you are in private practice. Its better to pay it off when you are young than to let interest build up forever.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:40 am

Are there government jobs available? State/local/federal in Chicago?

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:What were things like in the best of times for median Illini students? I figure by my OCI it will be somewhere between now and then.


Dean Pless, on this forum, claimed 40% got biglaw. But I think his definition of biglaw was a bit broad (probably something like 100+ attorney law firms), and I think he most likely meant 40% of students who responded to the salary survey got biglaw. More realistically, probably around 1/3 of the class got biglaw. If I remember correctly, he said 10-15% got midlaw. I get the feeling it was really hit or miss at that school in the best of times, where the top of the class did really well, but the bottom of the class struggled, which gave the school it’s $100k /year average in 08 (since the top of the class got $160k /year jobs in Chicago).

09042014
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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:52 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What were things like in the best of times for median Illini students? I figure by my OCI it will be somewhere between now and then.


Dean Pless, on this forum, claimed 40% got biglaw. But I think his definition of biglaw was a bit broad (probably something like 100+ attorney law firms), and I think he most likely meant 40% of students who responded to the salary survey got biglaw. More realistically, probably around 1/3 of the class got biglaw. If I remember correctly, he said 10-15% got midlaw. I get the feeling it was really hit or miss at that school in the best of times, where the top of the class did really well, but the bottom of the class struggled, which gave the school it’s $100k /year average in 08 (since the top of the class got $160k /year jobs in Chicago).


I would be shocked if Class of 2011 was higher than 10%.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:Are there government jobs available? State/local/federal in Chicago?


Yes (obviously), there are government jobs available in Chicago. It doesn't mean you're going to get one being median at UIUC though. They are also extremely competitive right now. Pretty much any legal job in Chicago is insanely competitvie in Chicago because there's shitload of people who want to be there, and not that many jobs. Just think about it, there's something like 6 schools in the Chicago area, and then there's schools that rely on it, like UIUC, and then students from other schools that want to be there, such as from ND, Iowa, WUSTL, the rest of the t14 not in Chicago, etc, and all of them are competing for the small number of jobs available (for c/o 2011 that number was 250 spots in terms of NALP law firms -- or the size of NU's class alone). No idea how competitive something like Cook county PD will be in 2015 though.

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No one is paying $1500 in loans on a 60K salary......With IBR, you'd be paying about 600 tops. I think you could live a fine life in Chicago or most other cities with that salary and loan repayment burden.


IBR isn't smart to use if you are in private practice. Its better to pay it off when you are young than to let interest build up forever.


And there's the ridiculous tax bill in 25 years.


Desert Fox wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What were things like in the best of times for median Illini students? I figure by my OCI it will be somewhere between now and then.


Dean Pless, on this forum, claimed 40% got biglaw. But I think his definition of biglaw was a bit broad (probably something like 100+ attorney law firms), and I think he most likely meant 40% of students who responded to the salary survey got biglaw. More realistically, probably around 1/3 of the class got biglaw. If I remember correctly, he said 10-15% got midlaw. I get the feeling it was really hit or miss at that school in the best of times, where the top of the class did really well, but the bottom of the class struggled, which gave the school it’s $100k /year average in 08 (since the top of the class got $160k /year jobs in Chicago).


I would be shocked if Class of 2011 was higher than 10%.


As would I. I'd be surprised if even half the class of 2011 at UIUC has any paying legal jobs lined up at graduation... There's certainly a good number of people at my school in my class that still don't.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby mez06 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:27 am

Spy, how did you compute the number of total job openings per the NALP law firms?

And to the poster who stated that the UIUC salary and biglaw percentage numbers from UIUC were probably derived from only 40% of the students (being those who responded to the survery) is INCORRECT. Check the Dean Pless forum. He released information about private sector avgs, employment avgs, etc. from the past three years. And of that information he stated that the facts surrounding applicants employment history was missing less than 10 students information.

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Re: What are WUSTL/UIUC (t18-25) Median Prospects?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:36 pm

mez06 wrote:Spy, how did you compute the number of total job openings per the NALP law firms?


See chart below.

mez06 wrote:And to the poster who stated that the UIUC salary and biglaw percentage numbers from UIUC were probably derived from only 40% of the students (being those who responded to the survery) is INCORRECT.


That's not what I said... Re-read my previous post. I said I believed it was 40% of students, who responded to the salary survey, got biglaw (not that the number was probably derived from only 40% of the students).

Chart (this was a little better done on my previous post, but whatever):

NALP firms in Chicago (I think there are a good number of IP boutiques in here because I haven’t even heard of some of these firms).

Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010

The 256 number doesn’t seem to bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.




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