Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

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Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:06 pm

I am at HYS and interested in transactional work at a V5. I'm heading into my second year with the possibility of being managing editor at a relevant secondary journal to the type of work I want to be doing. I can also apply to the primary law journal/law review and maybe get on that. I clearly can't do both. Doing grunt work on the primary journal is unappealing to me, and I heard corporate firms don't care as much about it if you're a transactional lawyer instead of a litigation attorney.

What will help more for OCI?

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Wow, really? Just because of its selectivity? And I've been curious about this: if one gets on the flagship journal, could you just say "selected for xxxx" on your resume for the purposes of OCI and choose not to participate in doing the gruntwork?

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:44 am

I was managing editor of a significant secondary journal of my school while I was on law review in my second year (T6). It's definitely possible, and probably beneficial--job-wise as well as personal growth-wise--to do both (although don't plan on doing much else if you want to keep your grades up). If you've gotta pick one or the other, being managing editor in your second year is going to be a far more personally rewarding experience than being a 2L on law review, but professionally it will not help you as much.

Stats
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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Stats » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:50 am

I don't think LR is going to help you at OCI. My informal analysis of last year's TLS OCI data suggested there was a weak or negligible boost associated with LR membership. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=147849

I do think LR helps for certain things, like clerkships and, relatedly, gaining access to a few very elite litigation-oriented firms that exhibit a strong preference for clerks (e.g., susman, W&C). However, if your goal is to do transactional work, and you're at HYS and have the grades necessary for LR to be a choice, rather than an aspiration, I think you will be best served by choosing the experience you prefer. The reality is that your choice will likely have no effect on your recruiting experience at any V5 firm (including WLRK), but it may have a huge impact on your enjoyment of life (depending upon how LR is run, and how high your tolerance for uncompensated tedium is). If I were in your position, I would take the ME position in a heartbeat.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:11 am

Great posts. Thanks guys. I know it's technically possible to do both LR and ME, but I don't want to burn out in my second year.

Danteshek
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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Danteshek » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:Great posts. Thanks guys. I know it's technically possible to do both LR and ME, but I don't want to burn out in my second year.


Don't be a wuss. Do both. This is a good way to signal that you are better than everyone else at your school.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:24 am

Danteshek wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Great posts. Thanks guys. I know it's technically possible to do both LR and ME, but I don't want to burn out in my second year.


Don't be a wuss. Do both. This is a good way to signal that you are better than everyone else at your school.


To what end?

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Danteshek » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Great posts. Thanks guys. I know it's technically possible to do both LR and ME, but I don't want to burn out in my second year.


Don't be a wuss. Do both. This is a good way to signal that you are better than everyone else at your school.


To what end?


Dude, if you want to be really successful, this should not even be a question. And seeing that you go to a top school, that is what I expect from you.

Basically, you have a choice. You can either ride the coattails of your school (lame), or you can outperform.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:13 am

Danteshek wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Great posts. Thanks guys. I know it's technically possible to do both LR and ME, but I don't want to burn out in my second year.


Don't be a wuss. Do both. This is a good way to signal that you are better than everyone else at your school.


To what end?


Dude, if you want to be really successful, this should not even be a question. And seeing that you go to a top school, that is what I expect from you.

Basically, you have a choice. You can either ride the coattails of your school (lame), or you can outperform.


Not sure if you're serious or not, but my grades are good enough that I won't be riding on any coattails.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Danteshek » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:29 am

Ok.

What does the Managing Editor actually do at this Journal? Is he involved in editorial policy / actual editing, or is he a glorified social chair?

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby phoenixsoars » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:52 am

.
Last edited by phoenixsoars on Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stats
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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Stats » Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:45 am

Danteshek wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Great posts. Thanks guys. I know it's technically possible to do both LR and ME, but I don't want to burn out in my second year.


Don't be a wuss. Do both. This is a good way to signal that you are better than everyone else at your school.


I assume/hope you are being facetious.

To reiterate, students greatly overestimate the importance of law review. They mistake correlation with causation--that is, they assume that because many people on law review end up at good firms, law review membership itself is important to good firms at OCI. It is possible that some firms care about this, but evidence suggests this is generally not the case at V5/V10/V20/V100 firms; a .05 increase in GPA will provide a better return at OCI than will law review membership.

Some aspects of law review can be rewarding (certainly not 2L editing, though), and I think that I would still do it if I were interested in clerking. But I think that an ME position will probably be more rewarding, and will be seen by many employers as involving more responsibility than a lowly editor position on law review.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Alyosha » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:08 pm

Stats wrote:I don't think LR is going to help you at OCI. My informal analysis of last year's TLS OCI data suggested there was a weak or negligible boost associated with LR membership. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=147849

I do think LR helps for certain things, like clerkships and, relatedly, gaining access to a few very elite litigation-oriented firms that exhibit a strong preference for clerks (e.g., susman, W&C). However, if your goal is to do transactional work, and you're at HYS and have the grades necessary for LR to be a choice, rather than an aspiration, I think you will be best served by choosing the experience you prefer. The reality is that your choice will likely have no effect on your recruiting experience at any V5 firm (including WLRK), but it may have a huge impact on your enjoyment of life (depending upon how LR is run, and how high your tolerance for uncompensated tedium is). If I were in your position, I would take the ME position in a heartbeat.


I'm sure this is true at HYS, but in my experience law review was very important for OCI. At my T30, the same group of people took up almost all the OCI interviews (we're on a pre select system). Most of that group were on law review. Other than IP, I bet the vast majority of people who got anything out of OCI were on law review.

I appreciate all the work you did compiling those statistics, and I know you were just responding to the OP's particular situation. I just want to point out that the lower down the rankings you go, the more dangerous it is to decline law review. You need all the help you can get ITE.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Stats » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:40 pm

Alyosha wrote:
I'm sure this is true at HYS, but in my experience law review was very important for OCI. At my T30, the same group of people took up almost all the OCI interviews (we're on a pre select system). Most of that group were on law review. Other than IP, I bet the vast majority of people who got anything out of OCI were on law review.

I appreciate all the work you did compiling those statistics, and I know you were just responding to the OP's particular situation. I just want to point out that the lower down the rankings you go, the more dangerous it is to decline law review. You need all the help you can get ITE.


It's possible that LR membership becomes important at lower ranked schools, but you can't draw that inference simply from the fact that most of the people who got jobs out of OCI were on LR. What you need to look at is the experience of people who wrote on to LR with good but not great grades as well as the experience of people who had the grades that were necessary for LR but declined membership (a rarity). It's really tough to disentangle these factors without looking at large samples.

That said, I certainly wouldn't advise against LR at a school that only places 10-20% of its students during OCI. Even if the boost is largely insignificant, the risk associated with being even marginally disadvantaged is too great to justify.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Danteshek » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:30 pm

Stats wrote: Some aspects of law review can be rewarding (certainly not 2L editing, though)


I take issue with the notion that 2L editing, which I am nearly finished with, is not rewarding. If I had not gone through that process, I never would have been able to write an Article that was accepted for publication this year by a good secondary journal at another law school.


Stats wrote:; a .05 increase in GPA will provide a better return at OCI than will law review membership.


You are forgetting that law review membership stays on your bio forever, while grades become unimportant once you actually become a competent lawyer with a career.

But, feel free to discount my opinion, since I am just a lowly member (Articles Editor elect) of a T2 Law Review.
Last edited by Danteshek on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stats
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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Stats » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:51 pm

Danteshek wrote:I take issue with the notion that 2L editing, which I am nearly finished with, is not rewarding. If I had not gone through that process, I never would have been able to write an Article that was accepted for publication this year by a good secondary journal at another law school.


I'm not sure how 2L editing works on your journal, but on my journal it entailed (1) proofreading 6-10 page segments of articles/notes, (2) photocopying source materials and verifying propositions, (3) bluebooking citations, (4) occasional line editing. Unless you're not at all detail oriented coming into LR, this sort of activity doesn't teach you anything you couldn't pick up editing your own note.

By contrast, 3L work is enriching for most students, I think. Depending upon what job you choose, you can cultivate jedi-level technical skills, gain exposure to many different areas of legal scholarship, learn a lot about the article/note writing process, or, if you get a board position, gain leadership experience.

Danteshek wrote:
Stats wrote:; a .05 increase in GPA will provide a better return at OCI than will law review membership.


You are forgetting that law review membership stays on your bio forever, while grades become unimportant once you actually become a competent lawyer with a career.


It's debatable whether, in transactional practice, this will pay any real dividends down the road--especially if you're comparing a leadership position on a secondary journal to a non-leadership position on LR. In any event, the OP is specifically interested in OCI experience.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:12 pm

Stats wrote:I don't think LR is going to help you at OCI. My informal analysis of last year's TLS OCI data suggested there was a weak or negligible boost associated with LR membership. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=147849

I do think LR helps for certain things, like clerkships and, relatedly, gaining access to a few very elite litigation-oriented firms that exhibit a strong preference for clerks (e.g., susman, W&C). However, if your goal is to do transactional work, and you're at HYS and have the grades necessary for LR to be a choice, rather than an aspiration, I think you will be best served by choosing the experience you prefer. The reality is that your choice will likely have no effect on your recruiting experience at any V5 firm (including WLRK), but it may have a huge impact on your enjoyment of life (depending upon how LR is run, and how high your tolerance for uncompensated tedium is). If I were in your position, I would take the ME position in a heartbeat.


I think it's really ballsy to suggest that someone should forego LR because of stats based on pretty shaky data.

To OP - go for LR. Any experiential benefit that you derive from a managing board position on a secondary as a 2L, you will also derive from being a managing board member of LR in your 3L year.

Additionally, LR does carry weight - especially with regards to clerkships. While, based on a small self-reported sample, LR may not effect OCI hiring - there's no reason to not take whatever bump you can derive from LR. That little bump might make the difference between getting the V5 of your dreams and not getting it. Why close doors?

Finally, you'll likely be exposed to a much higher level of scholarship on LR than on the secondary journal.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Stats » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:10 pm

vamedic03 wrote:I think it's really ballsy to suggest that someone should forego LR because of stats based on pretty shaky data.


Obviously I am not arguing that a 100 person sample = bulletproof evidence that LR has ZERO value at OCI. But it is probative, and given the OP's position (i.e., a class rank that undoubtedly exceeds cutoffs for every V5 firm and a desire to go into transactional practice), I do not think it's crazy (or "ballsy") to suggest that he/she should attach greater weight to the intrinsic value of the experience than its speculative value at OCI.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Blindmelon » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:37 pm

Stats wrote:
To reiterate, students greatly overestimate the importance of law review. They mistake correlation with causation--that is, they assume that because many people on law review end up at good firms, law review membership itself is important to good firms at OCI. It is possible that some firms care about this, but evidence suggests this is generally not the case at V5/V10/V20/V100 firms; a .05 increase in GPA will provide a better return at OCI than will law review membership.

Some aspects of law review can be rewarding (certainly not 2L editing, though), and I think that I would still do it if I were interested in clerking. But I think that an ME position will probably be more rewarding, and will be seen by many employers as involving more responsibility than a lowly editor position on law review.


I know its totally anectdotal, but I'm around median to top 1/3rd on LR at BU and I'll be at a V20 this summer and got a bunch of other offers. I know of someone who is around median with LR who will be at bigfirm in the OC.

Yes, LR doesn't trump grades, but I think its a huge boost to those without the grades. Also, at least 2 friends of mine with grades much better than me (top 10%, no LR) got 0 offers and another friend who is top 10% no LR got only 1 offer at a not well-known shop. Then again, I know non-LR people with V10 offers.

I've found that interviewers who were on their school's LR are much more prone to weigh it heavily. Then again, I think if you're going for a V5 firm, at least from a school like BU, you need it all.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:03 pm

Stats wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:I think it's really ballsy to suggest that someone should forego LR because of stats based on pretty shaky data.


Obviously I am not arguing that a 100 person sample = bulletproof evidence that LR has ZERO value at OCI. But it is probative, and given the OP's position (i.e., a class rank that undoubtedly exceeds cutoffs for every V5 firm and a desire to go into transactional practice), I do not think it's crazy (or "ballsy") to suggest that he/she should attach greater weight to the intrinsic value of the experience than its speculative value at OCI.


You have an unreliable 100 person sample. I don't see why you are encouraging OP to close doors based on this tiny, unreliable sample.

LR does have long lasting value:

(1) What if OP decides that he wants to enter academia? People change over the course of a couple years.

(2) What if OP decides to clerk? Perhaps OP won't like a transactional practice.

(3) It would be nice to have LR on the resume when one decides to lateral or apply for government.

But, most importantly, you're recommending that someone not consider LR based on weak data.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Alyosha » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:19 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Stats wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:I think it's really ballsy to suggest that someone should forego LR because of stats based on pretty shaky data.


Obviously I am not arguing that a 100 person sample = bulletproof evidence that LR has ZERO value at OCI. But it is probative, and given the OP's position (i.e., a class rank that undoubtedly exceeds cutoffs for every V5 firm and a desire to go into transactional practice), I do not think it's crazy (or "ballsy") to suggest that he/she should attach greater weight to the intrinsic value of the experience than its speculative value at OCI.


You have an unreliable 100 person sample. I don't see why you are encouraging OP to close doors based on this tiny, unreliable sample.

LR does have long lasting value:

(1) What if OP decides that he wants to enter academia? People change over the course of a couple years.

(2) What if OP decides to clerk? Perhaps OP won't like a transactional practice.

(3) It would be nice to have LR on the resume when one decides to lateral or apply for government.

But, most importantly, you're recommending that someone not consider LR based on weak data.


Agreed. Also it would be easy for OLs and 1Ls to read your post and think that law review generally doesn't help for OCI, rather than for this specific person.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:29 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Stats wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:I think it's really ballsy to suggest that someone should forego LR because of stats based on pretty shaky data.


Obviously I am not arguing that a 100 person sample = bulletproof evidence that LR has ZERO value at OCI. But it is probative, and given the OP's position (i.e., a class rank that undoubtedly exceeds cutoffs for every V5 firm and a desire to go into transactional practice), I do not think it's crazy (or "ballsy") to suggest that he/she should attach greater weight to the intrinsic value of the experience than its speculative value at OCI.


You have an unreliable 100 person sample. I don't see why you are encouraging OP to close doors based on this tiny, unreliable sample.

LR does have long lasting value:

(1) What if OP decides that he wants to enter academia? People change over the course of a couple years.

(2) What if OP decides to clerk? Perhaps OP won't like a transactional practice.

(3) It would be nice to have LR on the resume when one decides to lateral or apply for government.

But, most importantly, you're recommending that someone not consider LR based on weak data.


Actually, I am interested in academia down the road, but I heard publishing and clerkships are what matter for that. And I don't think I want to clerk.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
Stats wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:I think it's really ballsy to suggest that someone should forego LR because of stats based on pretty shaky data.


Obviously I am not arguing that a 100 person sample = bulletproof evidence that LR has ZERO value at OCI. But it is probative, and given the OP's position (i.e., a class rank that undoubtedly exceeds cutoffs for every V5 firm and a desire to go into transactional practice), I do not think it's crazy (or "ballsy") to suggest that he/she should attach greater weight to the intrinsic value of the experience than its speculative value at OCI.


You have an unreliable 100 person sample. I don't see why you are encouraging OP to close doors based on this tiny, unreliable sample.

LR does have long lasting value:

(1) What if OP decides that he wants to enter academia? People change over the course of a couple years.

(2) What if OP decides to clerk? Perhaps OP won't like a transactional practice.

(3) It would be nice to have LR on the resume when one decides to lateral or apply for government.

But, most importantly, you're recommending that someone not consider LR based on weak data.


Actually, I am interested in academia down the road, but I heard publishing and clerkships are what matter for that. And I don't think I want to clerk.


If you're interested in academia, then LR is a must. Yes, clerkships and publishing are more important, but the likelihood of both is substantially increased by LR.

Further, many academia candidates are doing fellowships prior to applying for professor positions (i.e., the meat market). Having LR on your resume will aid in obtaining a fellowship. For any given GPA/Experience level, the candidate with LR is going to have some edge (who's know's its significance) over the candidate without LR.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby Stats » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:25 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Stats wrote:I don't think LR is going to help you at OCI. My informal analysis of last year's TLS OCI data suggested there was a weak or negligible boost associated with LR membership. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=147849

This is interesting data, but it is also subject to severe limitations, including (1) self-reported inputs; (2) a limited amount of input; and (3) a lack of differentiation by schools and by target firms. For purposes of OP's post, we need to know whether LR is better than secondary journal for 2L OCI at YHS for v5 firms. Your more general data doesn't speak to those specific criterions, so while the data may (or may not) be valid generally, when you are talking about v5 hiring, LR might be more important than otherwise, since hiring for those positions is more competitive than most other firm hiring.


Just to clarify this, the sample size is not idea, but that doesn't mean that it has no probative value. Indeed, the fact that there are strongly significant effects (e.g., the negative relationship b/w DC and certain aspects of recruiting) suggests that the sample is sufficiently large to pick up the major, easily quantified factors. As to lack of differentiation, as I noted, although I did not post additional regression data, I ran separate regressions w/V5, V10, and V20 restricted dependent variables, as well as various interaction terms, to try to tease out more nuanced relationships. In no case was LR statistically significant. Finally, the failure to distinguish between no journal and secondary journal membership would tend to bias the regressions in a way that is unfavorable to my position--that is, the inclusion of an additional dummy variable capturing the effect of secondary journal membership would be expected to decrease the significance of the LR dummy variable for obvious reasons.

Again, I'm not suggesting that this disposes of the question, but to the extent that the OP can be read as indicating a willingness to weigh the marginal value of LR against his/her personal preference for the ME position, I think it is pertinent.

I'm not going to belabor this any further as I think it may be getting off track. The OP is free to weigh my opinion as he/she sees fit.

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Re: Managing Editor of Relevant Secondary Journal or Primary J.

Postby zay » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:28 am

My suggestion would be to go for LR, and if you get on, great! Write your note/comment about something that affects transactional law (maybe some unsettled area of corporate law that may get litigated?) and cross your fingers that you get published. That's probably the best situation, in my view. Assuming you can do both LR and the other journal, that might not be bad too (but will be a lot more work, depending on how often the journals publish).




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