Reneging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

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rose711
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby rose711 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:26 pm

Why did you accept a non-paying job if you need money and can't afford it? Here is some advice: don't take a job that doesn't pay - no matter how much it might hypothetically enhance your future - if you need money.

You've created this problem yourself, whining about some imbalance of power that every student, associate and clerk faces makes you look like a loser.

If you need money to live, you should withdraw from the non-paying job so you can find paying work. But wait, you said you would stay with this non-paying job if the paying one pans out...so maybe you don't really need the money?

You should stick to the offer you have accepted. I think you know that. Maybe you just want people to tell you that what you want to do is ok, some people will think it is ok, others won't. I think you've already made up your mind to drop your first offer the second you get a better one. And now you're rationalizing it by acting like your classmates welfare is your biggest concern.
Last edited by rose711 on Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dood
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby dood » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:27 pm

reneg and dont poast about it

seatown12
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby seatown12 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:33 pm

BeenDidThat wrote: As to the firms "reneging" on their offers...they offer you a position with the firm, which you can accept. But they retain the option to fire you, like most employers do, unless you have some sort of contractually guaranteed time of employment. That's not reneging. Continued employment is not guaranteed by the contract.

...

I love these infantile rationalizations of being a two-faced liar.


You can't have it both ways boss. Employment is either at-will or it isn't. If an employer can fire an individual for any reason or none OP has an equal ability to back out without having his character impugned on the interwebs.

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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:35 pm

.

TheStrand
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby TheStrand » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:38 pm

It is absurdly expensive for them to conduct these background checks. There are agencies and offices that can't even afford to take on unpaid interns because there's no budget for the bg check. If you are going to go back on your word to work with them, at least do it before they start this process.

@stanford4me What's difficult about it? Don't think you can keep your word, then don't give it. It's not as if OP is suffering some grievous injury because he is taking the position.
@anonymous So Latham withdrew offers so now any student can renege on a promise to accept? That's ludicrous. It would be one thing if this particular office had a history of giving offers that were not concrete, or were not 100% guaranteeing him the position. Then, I could see this as OP hedging his bets. But he is not thinking about keeping them on the line and interviewing with the firm because he thinks there's a chance he's going to get screwed out of an offer. He's doing it because he potentially has something else he'd like better. And as for "why do employers get to take their sweet time picking when 1ls are freaking out" in what world does it make sense for the interviewee get to make the rules about hiring just because they're stressed out by the process. I'm not denying that it's incredibly stressful for people to wait, or even defending the timelines, I'm just saying the power is on their side for a logical reason--they are the ones who have to work with whomever they hire, they are the ones who create the positions, and they are the ones who actually have to interview and choose. You are not entitled to a position or to determine when you will be picked. If a firm such as OP's chooses to take its sweet time and potentially miss out on the best candidates who get other faster offers then that's its prerogative

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A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:48 pm

These "oh noes, you are breakeen your promiz" people are either hypocritical or holier than thou.....both annoying.

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Borhas
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Borhas » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:25 pm

breaking a promise =/= lying

you guys are seriously over reacting w/ the moral disdain... and I say this as a VERY judgmental person

seatown12 wrote:
BeenDidThat wrote: As to the firms "reneging" on their offers...they offer you a position with the firm, which you can accept. But they retain the option to fire you, like most employers do, unless you have some sort of contractually guaranteed time of employment. That's not reneging. Continued employment is not guaranteed by the contract.

...

I love these infantile rationalizations of being a two-faced liar.


You can't have it both ways boss. Employment is either at-will or it isn't. If an employer can fire an individual for any reason or none OP has an equal ability to back out without having his character impugned on the interwebs.


+1

quitting at will is the only leverage employees have

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:55 pm

TheStrand wrote:It is absurdly expensive for them to conduct these background checks. There are agencies and offices that can't even afford to take on unpaid interns because there's no budget for the bg check. If you are going to go back on your word to work with them, at least do it before they start this process.

@stanford4me What's difficult about it? Don't think you can keep your word, then don't give it. It's not as if OP is suffering some grievous injury because he is taking the position.

I used to think like you did until I had a very long conversation with both of my parents who told me that it's not bad to look out for myself when it comes to employment. Trust me, they aren't at all worried about the well-being of OP. Incurring the costs of a BG check is a risk associated with the hiring process, one which they are willing to accept. That's how markets work.

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A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:01 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:
TheStrand wrote:It is absurdly expensive for them to conduct these background checks. There are agencies and offices that can't even afford to take on unpaid interns because there's no budget for the bg check. If you are going to go back on your word to work with them, at least do it before they start this process.

@stanford4me What's difficult about it? Don't think you can keep your word, then don't give it. It's not as if OP is suffering some grievous injury because he is taking the position.

I used to think like you did until I had a very long conversation with both of my parents who told me that it's not bad to look out for myself when it comes to employment. Trust me, they aren't at all worried about the well-being of OP. Incurring the costs of a BG check is a risk associated with the hiring process, one which they are willing to accept. That's how markets work.

+1. I'm almost positive the whole reputation following you around thing for reneging is a brain washing technique used by CSO's around the country so they have an easier time talking to judges/offices/firms.

Anonymous User
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:44 pm

OP here. Damn, some of you are really bitter and angry. I'm facing a decision, the moral dilemma is part of it, but I was also hoping to get a sense of the impact one decision may have over the other, and many of your replies (either way) have been very helpful. On the other hand, if you're uncomfortable meeting resistance to your position, that's your own issue and no amount of name-calling/violent moral disdain is helping your case.

The background check is a good point, because they didn't ask me any background questions so I won't necessarily pass. I don't like the idea that my employment there is still contingent on anything if I'm passing up callbacks, although realistically there probably isn't a whole lot that could go wrong there.

rose711 wrote:Why did you accept a non-paying job if you need money and can't afford it? Here is some advice: don't take a job that doesn't pay - no matter how much it might hypothetically enhance your future - if you need money.

You should stick to the offer you have accepted. I think you know that. Maybe you just want people to tell you that what you want to do is ok, some people will think it is ok, others won't. I think you've already made up your mind to drop your first offer the second you get a better one. And now you're rationalizing it by acting like your classmates welfare is your biggest concern.


Are you even a law student?

Anyway, I'd be very happy at the gov't job. I know for 1L all you're looking for is experience. The only real consideration (besides my superficial wants) is that the biglaw job is a fellowship that can lead to future employment, which I would not be willing to give up over a teenage conception of "keeping my word" (after all, isn't my employment terminable at will on both ends? I'm not a sharecropper). The arguments against it are burning my bridges with a powerful gov't agency in a big city, or burning the bridges of my classmates/school, which I am loyal to. Will the DA's even care?

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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anyway, I'd be very happy at the gov't job. I know for 1L all you're looking for is experience. The only real consideration (besides my superficial wants) is that the biglaw job is a fellowship that can lead to future employment, which I would not be willing to give up over a teenage conception of "keeping my word" (after all, isn't my employment terminable at will on both ends? I'm not a sharecropper). The arguments against it are burning my bridges with a powerful gov't agency in a big city, or burning the bridges of my classmates/school, which I am loyal to. Will the DA's even care?


The more stuff like this that I see, the more I understand why people view lawyers as sleazy and morally corrupt. If you didn't want to work there, you shouldn't have accepted to begin with. I realize that you didn't have the other offer yet, but you should have realized that there was still a chance that the firm would call. Unlike some of the folks here, I've been in your situation: accepted an offer only to have a better firm with higher pay come calling. Like with you, TLS folks encouraged me to take the higher-paying job and essentially said screw keeping your word. Still, I kept my word to the first firm because it's the right thing to do. (Naive? Not really. Where I'm from, people generally keep their word and expect the courtesy to be returned. Sure, I guess it's different in NY, LA, and other major metropolitan areas where half the people have never heard of such courtesies and expect to screw and be screwed, but there's no reason you have to follow suit.) My offer came the day after I accepted the other, so there wasn't really anytime to withdraw, which is much like yourself. If you have a family to support and your kids are going to starve if you don't accept the paying firm job, then go ahead and renege. I think most anybody would be understanding. Otherwise, be a man (or woman?) and hold up your end of the bargain.

To more directly answer your question: No, the DA's office probably won't be negatively impacted by a single 1L intern withdrawal, but that's still no reason not to honor your commitment. If you decide to renege on your acceptance anyway, at least do so as soon as possible to minimize the impact. While I won't argue that you have a duty not to "burn bridges" for your school or classmates, it certainly won't help you personally in the general area, and your "loyalty" might at least influence that much.

(For those who want to call me hypocritical or "holier than thou," go ahead. However, I don't really see how this could be perceived as hypocritical since I followed my own advice (even if it was slightly detrimental), and I'm just trying to give the OP some decent advice as opposed to being "holier than thou.") Also, the post is anonymous because I've posted details of my offers elsewhere, and there's no need to make that more public than it already is.

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LLB2JD
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby LLB2JD » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:42 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
TheStrand wrote:Jesus. First with the people who want to ED to a school then continue applying and putting down deposits at others and now with the people who accept job offers and then back out. Keep your word. It's just that simple.

cr. When the going got rough, firms stood by their summers and first years. We owe them at least this much.



lolwut? It's about time people sometimes started making decisions that benefits them personally. These folks would not think twice about dropping you if they perceive you are a strain on their bottom-line.

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dood
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby dood » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:46 pm

LLB2JD wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
TheStrand wrote:Jesus. First with the people who want to ED to a school then continue applying and putting down deposits at others and now with the people who accept job offers and then back out. Keep your word. It's just that simple.

cr. When the going got rough, firms stood by their summers and first years. We owe them at least this much.



lolwut? It's about time people sometimes started making decisions that benefits them personally. These folks would not think twice about dropping you if they perceive you are a strain on their bottom-line.


lololololwut seriously. "firms stood by their summers and first years" - this is a joke right??

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stonepeep
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby stonepeep » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:00 pm

Why do people stress out so much about what they do over 1L summer? You're statistically unlikely to turn a 1L job at a firm into a 2L or permanent job, anyway, so just stick with the job you have.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:00 pm

I would definitely check with career services. I'm pretty sure at my law school they expressly forbid accepting an offer and then repudiating it. In the context of any school policy against this, I wouldn't be totally surprised if it was considered an honor code violation to do so. I'm sure truly extenuating circumstances could allow for exceptions though.

The other thing you may want to consider is that there may be contract-related implications (though perhaps only equitably enforced due to 'at will' employment laws) in accepting an offer and then repudiating it- if the employer has relied on your acceptance. I strongly doubt the government would seriously consider suing you over it, but if it was a private employer who was relying on you then I'm not sure that would be totally out of the question. [Edited this paragraph based on feedback pertinent to 'law' v. 'equity'].

The timing thing does suck IMO, but I think etiquette (and perhaps school policy or law in some cases) governs how this situation is handled, and I think that going back on the acceptance is probably really only acceptable if there are truly extenuating circumstances (i.e. something that would prevent you from doing the job such as personal emergency). As far as I can tell, what you do your 1L summer isn't critical in any case (though I think it should certainly be legally-related), and even if the gov job isn't paying there may be some way to get loans for it. I know with federal and state judicial externships at my school it is possible to enroll in class of sorts through the school that basically allows for funding of the non-paying externship.

Good luck with your decision. Really, it is probably a moot point since you don't have the second job yet (and I imagine there could be a considerable number of students interviewing for it), but I think this is a dilemma or potential dilemma that a lot of law students struggle with.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:02 pm

dood wrote:
LLB2JD wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
TheStrand wrote:Jesus. First with the people who want to ED to a school then continue applying and putting down deposits at others and now with the people who accept job offers and then back out. Keep your word. It's just that simple.

cr. When the going got rough, firms stood by their summers and first years. We owe them at least this much.



lolwut? It's about time people sometimes started making decisions that benefits them personally. These folks would not think twice about dropping you if they perceive you are a strain on their bottom-line.


lololololwut seriously. "firms stood by their summers and first years" - this is a joke right??



Yes, I think it was definitely sarcasm (I believe Kohinoor is known for that, but could be mistaken).

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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby thesealocust » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:04 pm

Lawquacious wrote:The other thing you may want to consider is that it is possible there is an actual verbal (binding) contract you created by 'accepting' the 'offer,' and that seeking to withdraw from the deal late in the game to take another job could be considered a 'repudiation.' I strongly doubt the government would seriously consider suing you over it, but if it was a private employer who was relying on you then I'm not sure that would be totally out of the question. At the very least though, I think it is possible that you could be considered in some form of contract violation if you verbally accepted a clear offer of employment that has sufficiently definite terms (i.e. dates, position, etc).


lol, this is massively off base. At will employment, which is more or less the law everywhere, entitles employees to leave any job at any time. The 13th amendment (no joke) means that even if you tried to create such a contract, it couldn't be enforced by specific performance. And common law in almost every modern jurisdiction respects employee's unabridged rights to quit working, and even plan to compete against a former employer, at any time, for any reason. There is no remedy at law against somebody who says they'll take a job and then either doesn't (like OP is discussing) or later quits.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:08 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:The other thing you may want to consider is that it is possible there is an actual verbal (binding) contract you created by 'accepting' the 'offer,' and that seeking to withdraw from the deal late in the game to take another job could be considered a 'repudiation.' I strongly doubt the government would seriously consider suing you over it, but if it was a private employer who was relying on you then I'm not sure that would be totally out of the question. At the very least though, I think it is possible that you could be considered in some form of contract violation if you verbally accepted a clear offer of employment that has sufficiently definite terms (i.e. dates, position, etc).


lol, this is massively off base. At will employment, which is more or less the law everywhere, entitles employees to leave any job at any time. The 13th amendment (no joke) means that even if you tried to create such a contract, it couldn't be enforced by specific performance. And common law in almost every modern jurisdiction respects employee's unabridged rights to quit working, and even plan to compete against a former employer, at any time, for any reason. There is no remedy at law against somebody who says they'll take a job and then either doesn't (like OP is discussing) or later quits.



While I'm not unfamiliar with what I consider to be your frequently diminutive and overstated posts, it is definitely possible I'm wrong on this. However, 'at will' employment doesn't necessarily preclude quasi*-contract recovery for reliance damages.

*see below for correction/clarification

^^^
EDIT: O.K. I may have come off too strong on this SealLocust- I tend to take posts that I feel have a condescending tone personally, but I realize that it may not be your intention in your posts to come off that way and that I may be reading it in. So I apologize if any offense was taken to my comment above.

Also, Ks was admittedly not my strongest subject- at least in terms of the grade result- so while I still believe that there are remedies available in some cases where a person repudiates a verbal promise for employment even in 'at will' jurisdictions, it would actually not be a quasi-K (implied-in-law, where restitution damages are at issue for unjust enrichment), but I think the remedy would hinge on an implied-in-fact K (via promissory estoppel in order to satisfy a reliance interest). This in itself I don't think is a far-out idea; my Ks professor is a casebook author who I think it is safe to say is a bonafide expert in K law, and he talked about this type of scenario a fair amount (and again, I may not have understood it fully, but I doubt I am too far off about the possibility of liability for employment repudiations where there has been detrimental reliance, even in 'at will' jurisdictions).

However, it is true that it would be far-fetched to think this applies directly to OP's 1L (hypothetical) situation, so I can understand where you are coming from (not to mention my statement of how K law may work was prob not clear or necessarily accurate, especially in the initial part). I think there is a valid point though that if OP plans to do this type of thing in the future (accept a position, then wait a long time and eventually reject it when the company is counting on him) then there may be more at stake than just etiquette and possibly honor code as is the case here. I am willing to admit I may be wrong about any of the above though- I am a law student and not an expert or even an attorney at this point. And actually, I would feel some comfort if you were right in what I believe is your assertion that there is no way to get sued for employment repudiation in an 'at will' jurisdiction (which I think you are saying de facto covers pretty much everywhere now) even if there was detrimental reliance.

Really all this is a hypo anyway since OP doesn't have the firm job and my guess is that this won't be a real dilemma. Not wishing you anything but good luck though OP, and I hope you make the best decision if this option does materialize.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:24 pm

OP here. Not at all concerned about being sued, I'm not even going to dignify that with a response but I suggest you dust off your contracts books and figure that one out for yourself. On the other hand, you bring up a good point about the honor code, I will go ask my cso if there's anything expressly prohibiting this. For their reputation's sake, they will strongly discourage me from reneging, but it's nice to get a better sense of the consequences.

There's a point where I think any reasonable person would reneg though, for instance if you an application out for a fellowship at a huge national firm that pays $30k, and you don't have to interview to get a 2L SA there. If that came through, would any of you really take the volunteer summer DA job because you said you would over the phone? At some point you are risking your future over your uninformed, slightly coerced acceptance. I'm trying to hash out at what point the obvious detriments of reneging are worth the payoff of taking a much, much better job you didn't have the opportunity to consider when you accepted.

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dood
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby dood » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:32 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
dood wrote:
lololololwut seriously. "firms stood by their summers and first years" - this is a joke right??


Yes, I think it was definitely sarcasm (I believe Kohinoor is known for that, but could be mistaken).


ah ok that makes sense lol. never forget!!

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A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:02 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:The other thing you may want to consider is that it is possible there is an actual verbal (binding) contract you created by 'accepting' the 'offer,' and that seeking to withdraw from the deal late in the game to take another job could be considered a 'repudiation.' I strongly doubt the government would seriously consider suing you over it, but if it was a private employer who was relying on you then I'm not sure that would be totally out of the question. At the very least though, I think it is possible that you could be considered in some form of contract violation if you verbally accepted a clear offer of employment that has sufficiently definite terms (i.e. dates, position, etc).


lol, this is massively off base. At will employment, which is more or less the law everywhere, entitles employees to leave any job at any time. The 13th amendment (no joke) means that even if you tried to create such a contract, it couldn't be enforced by specific performance. And common law in almost every modern jurisdiction respects employee's unabridged rights to quit working, and even plan to compete against a former employer, at any time, for any reason. There is no remedy at law against somebody who says they'll take a job and then either doesn't (like OP is discussing) or later quits.



While I'm not unfamiliar with what I consider to be your frequently diminutive and overstated posts, it is definitely possible I'm wrong on this. However, 'at will' employment doesn't necessarily preclude quasi-contract recovery for reliance damages.

Are you mentally challenged?

Edit: oh and btw, why can't law students ever get sarcasm? How could Kohinoor's statement not jump out as being completely sarcastic, no matter who freaking posted it? Some of you guys completely blow my mind sometimes.....

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Lawquacious
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Not at all concerned about being sued, I'm not even going to dignify that with a response but I suggest you dust off your contracts books and figure that one out for yourself. On the other hand, you bring up a good point about the honor code, I will go ask my cso if there's anything expressly prohibiting this. For their reputation's sake, they will strongly discourage me from reneging, but it's nice to get a better sense of the consequences.

There's a point where I think any reasonable person would reneg though, for instance if you an application out for a fellowship at a huge national firm that pays $30k, and you don't have to interview to get a 2L SA there. If that came through, would any of you really take the volunteer summer DA job because you said you would over the phone? At some point you are risking your future over your uninformed, slightly coerced acceptance. I'm trying to hash out at what point the obvious detriments of reneging are worth the payoff of taking a much, much better job you didn't have the opportunity to consider when you accepted.



I wasn't saying you should be concerned about being sued (I said something along the lines that I see no way the govt. would consider that), but I do think that if at some point in the future you reneged on an employment agreement with a private employer who relied on your word that you were taking the job that they could possibly seek reliance damages (and I think that is by no means totally far-fetched as certain people seem to be indicating, although it may not happen often). Maybe I should have been clear in the first place that any recovery would likely need to be 'equitable' in nature though, and in that sense there may not be a true and binding K except by implication-in-fact. But I definitely don't think that section of what I said really applies to your situation currently (in terms of needing to fear suit); I do think it may highlight that what you are considering is not entirely trivial or necessarily just a matter of etiquette though. Blowing off an offer you have accepted in the professional world could at some point have legal consequences, even if only 'equitably' determined rather than 'at law'.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:25 pm

...
Last edited by Lawquacious on Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

nigelfrost
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby nigelfrost » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:27 pm

This thread has been a delight, due in no small part to the fact that OP thinks his/her 1L summer job is going to matter in the long run.

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A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:33 pm

A'nold wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
lol, this is massively off base. At will employment, which is more or less the law everywhere, entitles employees to leave any job at any time. The 13th amendment (no joke) means that even if you tried to create such a contract, it couldn't be enforced by specific performance. And common law in almost every modern jurisdiction respects employee's unabridged rights to quit working, and even plan to compete against a former employer, at any time, for any reason. There is no remedy at law against somebody who says they'll take a job and then either doesn't (like OP is discussing) or later quits.



While I'm not unfamiliar with what I consider to be your frequently diminutive and overstated posts, it is definitely possible I'm wrong on this. However, 'at will' employment doesn't necessarily preclude quasi-contract recovery for reliance damages.

Are you mentally challenged?

Edit: oh and btw, why can't law students ever get sarcasm? How could Kohinoor's statement not jump out as being completely sarcastic, no matter who freaking posted it? Some of you guys completely blow my mind sometimes.....


I don't appreciate the (implied) name-calling. If you can't recognize a valid point then I don't think it is my mental capability that is in question.

It was the bolded that I was mostly referring to, even though your quasi-contract theory is ridiculous in this situation. It's painful to watch people w/ a large ego trying to back pedal into a very weak argument that they can argue semantics about.




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