I'm feeling a "JumpJump-esque" thread coming on.... Bring on the memes.Lawquacious wrote:While I'm not unfamiliar with what I consider to be your frequently diminutive and overstated posts, it is definitely possible I'm wrong on this. However, 'at will' employment doesn't necessarily preclude quasi-contract recovery for reliance damages.
Reneging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer Forum
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
- A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
nigelfrost wrote:I'm feeling a "JumpJump-esque" thread coming on.... Bring on the memes.Lawquacious wrote:While I'm not unfamiliar with what I consider to be your frequently diminutive and overstated posts, it is definitely possible I'm wrong on this. However, 'at will' employment doesn't necessarily preclude quasi-contract recovery for reliance damages.
- A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
Ok I'm sorry, but you really need to stop this madhat 1L contracts frenzy. I will just spell it out for you: there are no reliance damages, or any other damages. There has been no paperwork and no terms. I've verbally accepted an offer to volunteer there in the summer, with no defined terms at all and subsequent to me passing a background check. The ONLY issue is one of etiquette and retaliation. And can everyone in general stop with the hissy fits, dick-measuring, and name calling? This is a legitimate issue many people deal with in their job search, and it's not offensive to our moral dignities just to talk it out or have a contrary opinion! I've heard great points from both sides, and I'm definitely going to talk to my CSO about it, which I was not going to do before this thread.Lawquacious wrote: I wasn't saying you should be concerned about being sued (I said something along the lines that I see no way the govt. would consider that), but I do think that if at some point in the future you reneged on an employment agreement with a private employer who relied on your word that you were taking the job that they could possibly seek reliance damages (and I think that is by no means totally far-fetched as certain people seem to be indicating, although it may not happen often). Maybe I should have been clear in the first place that any recovery would likely need to be 'equitable' in nature though, and in that sense there may not be a true and binding K except as implied by law. But I definitely don't think that section of what I said really applies to your situation currently (in terms of needing to fear suit); I do think it may highlight that what you are considering is not entirely trivial or necessarily just a matter of etiquette though. Blowing off an offer you have accepted in the professional world could at some point have legal consequences, even if only 'equitably' determined rather than 'at law'.
a 1L summer job can matter, I don't know where you're getting your cynicism. Yes they tell us most 1L jobs are equal and employers won't knock you for doing PI or government or whatever, but there are some 1L jobs that stand out. Particularly, I've spoken to a few attorneys who landed big firm fellowships their 1L year, then were invited back their 2L summer because they'd been there, and are now associates at those firms. They'd probably say that their 1L job mattered. It also matters to big firms when a big name firm is on your resume. It's a niche situation, but that's what we're talking about here, since my goal is to land one of those big firm jobs in the major city I'm in. Could I do it with the DAO on my resume? It's possible, but it's a lot easier to network around the screening process than try to get through based on grades I haven't earned yet.nigelfrost wrote:This thread has been a delight, due in no small part to the fact that OP thinks his/her 1L summer job is going to matter in the long run.
- Stanford4Me
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
When it comes to firm jobs they can matter.nigelfrost wrote:This thread has been a delight, due in no small part to the fact that OP thinks his/her 1L summer job is going to matter in the long run.
My 1L SA gig guarantees me a second-half summer position my 2L year. Yeah, that matters.
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- vamedic03
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
^this is spot on. Everyone else should probably stop.G. T. L. Rev. wrote:I would stick with the DA job in that circumstance, but I'd be disappointed about how things turned out for a little while. Then, I'd realize that the firm opportunity is still there for 2L summer, and that I did the right thing. Soon, I'd feel a lot better. Life would, contrary to some of the hyperventilating going on above, go on.Anonymous User wrote:There's a point where I think any reasonable person would reneg though, for instance if you an application out for a fellowship at a huge national firm that pays $30k, and you don't have to interview to get a 2L SA there. If that came through, would any of you really take the volunteer summer DA job because you said you would over the phone?
Speak of the devil! I mean, come on. Risking your future? It may feel that way right now, but I promise that 1L summer doesn't determine anyone's future. And slightly coerced? They forced you to apply for the position? And to accept once it was offered? Your original post sure didn't make it sound this way ("I got real and just accepted a government that I got on the spot at an interview."). In any event, I bet the DA wished s/he had those kind of powers. Just think how useful they'd be in plea negotiations!! And on juries! The possibilities really are limitless.At some point you are risking your future over your uninformed, slightly coerced acceptance.
Face it: you could've not applied, or declined when offered the job. You also probably could've asked for more time to consider the offer. But you didn't. You seem to believe that you are entitled to a summer job, and that's the critical flaw. You aren't--nobody is. When you voluntarily applied and voluntarily accepted, that was that. Before doing so, you were free to do whatever you damn well pleased, or to do nothing at all. Section 90 of the Restatement isn't what makes your commitment matter, either. Instead, your sense of personal dignity, professionalism, and knowledge that the legal world is a small one should have supplied that notion.
At this point, however, the thread is a lost cause. You asked the question, and got a variety of answers--some you preferred, others which you obviously did not. In the end, you will probably not get the firm job, and all this will be moot.
- A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
Your nose is turning a little brown va.....vamedic03 wrote:^this is spot on. Everyone else should probably stop.G. T. L. Rev. wrote:I would stick with the DA job in that circumstance, but I'd be disappointed about how things turned out for a little while. Then, I'd realize that the firm opportunity is still there for 2L summer, and that I did the right thing. Soon, I'd feel a lot better. Life would, contrary to some of the hyperventilating going on above, go on.Anonymous User wrote:There's a point where I think any reasonable person would reneg though, for instance if you an application out for a fellowship at a huge national firm that pays $30k, and you don't have to interview to get a 2L SA there. If that came through, would any of you really take the volunteer summer DA job because you said you would over the phone?
Speak of the devil! I mean, come on. Risking your future? It may feel that way right now, but I promise that 1L summer doesn't determine anyone's future. And slightly coerced? They forced you to apply for the position? And to accept once it was offered? Your original post sure didn't make it sound this way ("I got real and just accepted a government that I got on the spot at an interview."). In any event, I bet the DA wished s/he had those kind of powers. Just think how useful they'd be in plea negotiations!! And on juries! The possibilities really are limitless.At some point you are risking your future over your uninformed, slightly coerced acceptance.
Face it: you could've not applied, or declined when offered the job. You also probably could've asked for more time to consider the offer. But you didn't. You seem to believe that you are entitled to a summer job, and that's the critical flaw. You aren't--nobody is. When you voluntarily applied and voluntarily accepted, that was that. Before doing so, you were free to do whatever you damn well pleased, or to do nothing at all. Section 90 of the Restatement isn't what makes your commitment matter, either. Instead, your sense of personal dignity, professionalism, and knowledge that the legal world is a small one should have supplied that notion.
At this point, however, the thread is a lost cause. You asked the question, and got a variety of answers--some you preferred, others which you obviously did not. In the end, you will probably not get the firm job, and all this will be moot.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
I didn't sense that OP felt entitled to a job. On the other hand, it seems that you and others feel that employers are entitled to law student labor by virtue of offering unpaid summer "jobs." I find it hard to believe that anyone would agree that "personal dignity" and "professionalism" require a broke law student in the hypo laid out by OP to turn down $30,000 as you say you would. I also don't really think that if you were the DA you would demand OP turn down the money to work for you. Anybody who would has lost sight of reality and their opinions can be safely disregarded.G. T. L. Rev. wrote: Face it: you could've not applied, or declined when offered the job. You also probably could've asked for more time to consider the offer. But you didn't. You seem to believe that you are entitled to a summer job, and that's the critical flaw. You aren't--nobody is. When you voluntarily applied and voluntarily accepted, that was that. Before doing so, you were free to do whatever you damn well pleased, or to do nothing at all. Section 90 of the Restatement isn't what makes your commitment matter, either. Instead, your sense of personal dignity, professionalism, and knowledge that the legal world is a small one should have supplied that notion.
Would "personal dignity" and "professionalism" prevent OP from backing out of the DA job to care for his dying mother? The answer has to be yes if this is truly about principles. Otherwise you all are just judging OP's motivations, which are none of our business.
Last edited by seatown12 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
- A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
Perfectly stated. If it was paying, it would be another story entirely.seatown12 wrote:I didn't sense that OP felt entitled to a job. On the other hand, it seems that you and others feel that employers are entitled to law student labor by virtue of offering unpaid summer "jobs." I find it hard to believe that anyone would agree that "personal dignity" and "professionalism" require a broke law student in the hypo laid out by OP to turn down $30,000 as you say you would. I also don't really think that if you were the DA you would demand OP turn down the money to work for you. Anybody who would has lost sight of reality and their opinions can be safely disregarded.G. T. L. Rev. wrote: Face it: you could've not applied, or declined when offered the job. You also probably could've asked for more time to consider the offer. But you didn't. You seem to believe that you are entitled to a summer job, and that's the critical flaw. You aren't--nobody is. When you voluntarily applied and voluntarily accepted, that was that. Before doing so, you were free to do whatever you damn well pleased, or to do nothing at all. Section 90 of the Restatement isn't what makes your commitment matter, either. Instead, your sense of personal dignity, professionalism, and knowledge that the legal world is a small one should have supplied that notion.
- romothesavior
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
Those of you "holier than thou" folks who think reneging on your word is the end of the world, go talk to the Lathamed folks who were told flat out by partnership that there would not be cutbacks, only to find themselves packing only a few months later. This is ITE, ladies and gents... welcome to the real world.
Also, I'm guessing this is an unpaid gig. Does anyone here really think your have an ethical obligation to turn down a job that could pay tens of thousands over the summer and possibly lead to full-time employment so you can work unpaid in a dead-end 1L job? GTFO. I could maybe see backing out being a bad thing if this employer would lose money or wind up with egg in their face if you backed out. But the DA loses almost nothing by a person backing out. It is free labor over the summer. Any employer who would take offense to a student backing out of an unpaid, dead-end internship to take a job that pays tens of thousands of dollars (thus lessening their massive debt burden), especially one that may lead to long-term employment in the shittiest of shitty job markets, is a real jackass of an employer. I can't believe current upperclassmen ITT are saying backing out is the wrong move. Did you all forget that law school costs tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of dollars? Did you forget that the legal economy is a shitstorm?
OP, do the interview and all that, but I honestly doubt this will even become an issue. Your odds of getting the firm job are likely to be slim. I just had to respond because of the asinine comments going on ITT.
Also, I'm guessing this is an unpaid gig. Does anyone here really think your have an ethical obligation to turn down a job that could pay tens of thousands over the summer and possibly lead to full-time employment so you can work unpaid in a dead-end 1L job? GTFO. I could maybe see backing out being a bad thing if this employer would lose money or wind up with egg in their face if you backed out. But the DA loses almost nothing by a person backing out. It is free labor over the summer. Any employer who would take offense to a student backing out of an unpaid, dead-end internship to take a job that pays tens of thousands of dollars (thus lessening their massive debt burden), especially one that may lead to long-term employment in the shittiest of shitty job markets, is a real jackass of an employer. I can't believe current upperclassmen ITT are saying backing out is the wrong move. Did you all forget that law school costs tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of dollars? Did you forget that the legal economy is a shitstorm?
OP, do the interview and all that, but I honestly doubt this will even become an issue. Your odds of getting the firm job are likely to be slim. I just had to respond because of the asinine comments going on ITT.
Last edited by romothesavior on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
- romothesavior
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
OP, PM me. I may have some information on this that would be helpful to you, but I don't want to share it in the thread.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
romothesavior wrote:OP, PM me. I may have some information on this that would be helpful to you, but I don't want to share it in the thread.
I feel robbed.
- A'nold
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
romothesavior wrote:Those of you "holier than thou" folks who think reneging on your word is the end of the world, go talk to the Lathamed folks who were told flat out by partnership that there would not be cutbacks, only to find themselves packing only a few months later. This is ITE, ladies and gents... welcome to the real world.
Also, I'm guessing this is an unpaid gig. Does anyone here really think your have an ethical obligation to turn down a job that could pay tens of thousands over the summer and possibly lead to full-time employment so you can work unpaid in a dead-end 1L job? GTFO. I could maybe see backing out being a bad thing if this employer would lose money or wind up with egg in their face if you backed out. But the DA loses almost nothing by a person backing out. It is free labor over the summer. Any employer who would take offense to a student backing out of an unpaid, dead-end internship to take a job that pays tens of thousands of dollars (thus lessening their massive debt burden), especially one that may lead to long-term employment in the shittiest of shitty job markets, is a real jackass of an employer. I can't believe current upperclassmen ITT are saying backing out is the wrong move. Did you all forget that law school costs tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of dollars? Did you forget that the legal economy is a shitstorm?
OP, do the interview and all that, but I honestly doubt this will even become an issue. Your odds of getting the firm job are likely to be slim. I just had to respond because of the asinine comments going on ITT.
Romo, you really are a savior. *adoring eyes*
Way to actually bring some common sense into this child-like imaginary wasteland of a thread.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
A lot of 3L students scrambling for a job, any job, in this thread, obviously. OP, I think you know the right move here, you're just scared how it will look if you do it. It won't look bad, trust me. The detractors in this thread are dumbfounded that anyone even has to make this choice. They're most likely c/o 2011 that missed out on biglaw, and they are bitter that had they gone to law school two years later like you things might have been different.
If it makes you feel any better, I have a few friends that straight HUSTLED for a DA job (interned 1L and 2L summer, working there now as a 3L) and how did the DA reward them? By making what I'll nicely refer to as "politically motivated" hires. The DA doesn't give a shit about you, and you shouldn't behave any differently. Do what I said in my first post and stop sweating it. You're starting to sound like an attention whore.
If it makes you feel any better, I have a few friends that straight HUSTLED for a DA job (interned 1L and 2L summer, working there now as a 3L) and how did the DA reward them? By making what I'll nicely refer to as "politically motivated" hires. The DA doesn't give a shit about you, and you shouldn't behave any differently. Do what I said in my first post and stop sweating it. You're starting to sound like an attention whore.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
lolJethroTull wrote:A lot of 3L students scrambling for a job, any job, in this thread, obviously. OP, I think you know the right move here, you're just scared how it will look if you do it. It won't look bad, trust me. The detractors in this thread are dumbfounded that anyone even has to make this choice. They're most likely c/o 2011 that missed out on biglaw, and they are bitter that had they gone to law school two years later like you things might have been different.
If it makes you feel any better, I have a few friends that straight HUSTLED for a DA job (interned 1L and 2L summer, working there now as a 3L) and how did the DA reward them? By making what I'll nicely refer to as "politically motivated" hires. The DA doesn't give a shit about you, and you shouldn't behave any differently. Do what I said in my first post and stop sweating it. You're starting to sound like an attention whore.
- ggocat
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
No. It's not an obligation of any sort, and when you weigh pros and cons on the scale (including the "ethical" ones), the scale likely tips in favor of taking the firm job.romo wrote:Does anyone here really think your have an ethical obligation . . . .
I would hope the OP recognizes that there will be many opportunities in life for you to weigh the pros and cons, measure risk vs. reward, and make the "best" decision. It's easy to rationalize breaking your commitment. But you may be happier in the long run if you establish certain principles and try not to compromise them.
FWIW, I was in a similar position as OP, but I actually received an offer from the second employer. I declined because I already made a commitment elsewhere. GTLR's comment adequately describes my thoughts on the matter:
But maybe I'm just one of those butthurt holier-than-thou types.G. T. L. Rev. wrote:I would stick with the DA job in that circumstance, but I'd be disappointed about how things turned out for a little while. Then, I'd realize that the firm opportunity is still there for 2L summer, and that I did the right thing. Soon, I'd feel a lot better. Life would, contrary to some of the hyperventilating going on above, go on.
Last edited by ggocat on Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
renege away!!
no one ever gets to the top by being ethical!
=P
no one ever gets to the top by being ethical!
=P
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- romothesavior
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
See, I don't even see this as an ethical situation at all.phonepro wrote:renege away!!
no one ever gets to the top by being ethical!
=P
The average law student graduates with over 6 figures of debt. The average law student also has pretty piss-poor job prospects. Because of these very obvious realities of the world that we live in as students (which we certainly did not create or ask for), I'd say the average law student should do whatever they can to minimize their debt and increase their post-graduate job prospects. If an employer or the CSO or whoever wants to hurt your long-term best interests by holding you to some phantom ethical obligation to "keep your word" to work for free in a dead-end job, then I'd call that an unethical move on their part, not the other way around.
If the DA's office doesn't want people to bail, maybe they should pay them? We've got bills to pay, mouths to feed (either now or in the future), and tons of debt to pay off. We don't call it unethical when an established attorney jumps ship from one firm to another for financial or career reasons. Why would it be unethical for students (the most vulnerable class of people in the profession) to do what's best for our long-term interests? Most people involved in legal hiring or employee retention wouldn't bat an eye at laying you off or throwing you to the dogs (as we saw across the board ITE), so I think it is time we students ditched this silly notion that this crap matters one bit.
There may be times when backing out is the wrong move from a career/reputation perspective, and maybe it is even sketchy (bordering on unethical) in some situations, but this situation is NOT one of them.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
romothesavior wrote:See, I don't even see this as an ethical situation at all.
The average law student graduates with over 6 figures of debt. The average law student also has pretty piss-poor job prospects. Because of these very obvious realities of the world that we live in as students (which we certainly did not create or ask for), I'd say the average law student should do whatever they can to minimize their debt and increase their post-graduate job prospects.
LOL. Do you really beleive that law grads don't ask for six figure debts? Exactly how do law grads end up with that type of debt obligation if they don't ask for it? The piss poor job prospects are a function of supply and demand. Law students (myself included) have played a role on the supply side of the equation.
I don't buy your innocent victim rationalization.
- romothesavior
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
Cool story bro.xyzbca wrote:
LOL. Do you really beleive that law grads don't ask for six figure debts? Exactly how do law grads end up with that type of debt obligation if they don't ask for it? The piss poor job prospects are a function of supply and demand. Law students (myself included) have played a role on the supply side of the equation.
I don't buy your innocent victim rationalization.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
THANK you, this is what I was hoping to hash out by discussing it here. I'm trying to figure out whether this is a bad career move, because you never want to burn bridges. I talked to my CSO and they told me exactly what we thought they would, but the counselor also told me he had to tell me that, and that ultimately I'd make my own decision as an adult. He told me I shouldn't even take the interview.romothesavior wrote: There may be times when backing out is the wrong move from a career/reputation perspective, and maybe it is even sketchy (bordering on unethical) in some situations, but this situation is NOT one of them.
I'm definitely taking this interview. But I'm torn on what to do about the gov't job, because holding out for this firm job may take a while. I'm less comfortable sending in all my paperwork to the gov't job, waiting a month, and then backing out. On the other hand, part of me doesn't care what happens to me if I do that, when I have a shot at one of the biggest firms in the country.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
romothesavior wrote: There may be times when backing out is the wrong move from a career/reputation perspective, and maybe it is even sketchy (bordering on unethical) in some situations, but this situation is NOT one of them.
Yes this is. OP does not have the firm job yet. He probably has significantly less than a 50% shot at the firm job (probably less than 25%, depending on the firm). If OP reneges on the DA and does not get the firm job (the most probable outcome), he is really screwed for this summer, since it will be very hard to get a job in April, and not having a 1L summer job is one of the more detrimental things you can do before OCI.
Reneging now is absolutely the wrong move - ethically or self-interestedly. There's a better argument for reneging later, once OP has a firm job in hand - at least then it's the right decision from a self-interested perspective, if not from an ethical one. But it is absolutely stupid to renege now.
- romothesavior
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
No one is advocating backing out now.imchuckbass58 wrote:romothesavior wrote: There may be times when backing out is the wrong move from a career/reputation perspective, and maybe it is even sketchy (bordering on unethical) in some situations, but this situation is NOT one of them.
Yes this is. OP does not have the firm job yet. He probably has significantly less than a 50% shot at the firm job (probably less than 25%, depending on the firm). If OP reneges on the DA and does not get the firm job (the most probable outcome), he is really screwed for this summer, since it will be very hard to get a job in April, and not having a 1L summer job is one of the more detrimental things you can do before OCI.
Reneging now is absolutely the wrong move - ethically or self-interestedly. There's a better argument for reneging later, once OP has a firm job in hand - at least then it's the right decision from a self-interested perspective, if not from an ethical one. But it is absolutely stupid to renege now.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
What is on the table is leading the gov't job on until you see if you get the offer, and giving the firm job pressure to hurry up and decide. Pretty slimy, but you'd have plenty of time to cry yourself to the bank while not looking for a 2L job next year.
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Re: Renegging on my acceptance of 1L Summer Job Offer
OP here. Hypo became a reality. Does anyone with any sort of experience in the legal community have an idea of the real negative repercussions of reneging? Personal morals aside, how will this affect my career? I am probably just rationalizing here, but I just can't imagine that a human being would see this as the worst thing in the world if I explained the situation. I feel like he would see that the damage I'd be doing to the gov't is totally disproportionate the damage I'd be doing to myself.Anonymous User wrote:What is on the table is leading the gov't job on until you see if you get the offer, and giving the firm job pressure to hurry up and decide. Pretty slimy, but you'd have plenty of time to cry yourself to the bank while not looking for a 2L job next year.
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
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