2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

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thesealocust
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby thesealocust » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:46 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Veyron wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:OMG a lot of the top 10 is under 50 percent now. I remember when I first began looking at law schools every top 10 had at least 50 percent of the class in nlj 250--Columbia used to have 70+ percent.....this is really getting bad. Look what happened to Duke!!!! 38 percent


You think its bad now? Wait till CO' 2011 comes out!


+1. The massive anal rapeage didn't begin until c/o 2011. I remember reading some article after c/o 2010 did OCI about how the t14 was recession proof (suggesting these numbers were really good).


c/o 2010, OCI 2008, also had the carnage of the lowest recorded fulltime offer rates for 2009 SAs. Honestly it's anybody's guess right now how c/o 2010 and 2011 will compare, beyond both being bad.

My personal guess is we'll see 10-15 schools with only minor shuffling/reversion to the mean, then total carnage. The no offer waves were indiscriminate (if a firm could only make 25% offers, it was unlikely to choose based on law school attended) and that's what dampened the numbers for class of 2010. Law firm hiring reductions, by all accounts, had profoundly different effects on different schools. As a random example, Cravath went from hiring ~100 to hiring ~20. To get just 20 students, they recruited from a narrower section of schools. Cravath was hardly the only firm making such decisions.

09042014
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:05 pm

thesealocust wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
Veyron wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:OMG a lot of the top 10 is under 50 percent now. I remember when I first began looking at law schools every top 10 had at least 50 percent of the class in nlj 250--Columbia used to have 70+ percent.....this is really getting bad. Look what happened to Duke!!!! 38 percent


You think its bad now? Wait till CO' 2011 comes out!


+1. The massive anal rapeage didn't begin until c/o 2011. I remember reading some article after c/o 2010 did OCI about how the t14 was recession proof (suggesting these numbers were really good).


c/o 2010, OCI 2008, also had the carnage of the lowest recorded fulltime offer rates for 2009 SAs. Honestly it's anybody's guess right now how c/o 2010 and 2011 will compare, beyond both being bad.

My personal guess is we'll see 10-15 schools with only minor shuffling/reversion to the mean, then total carnage. The no offer waves were indiscriminate (if a firm could only make 25% offers, it was unlikely to choose based on law school attended) and that's what dampened the numbers for class of 2010. Law firm hiring reductions, by all accounts, had profoundly different effects on different schools. As a random example, Cravath went from hiring ~100 to hiring ~20. To get just 20 students, they recruited from a narrower section of schools. Cravath was hardly the only firm making such decisions.


A lot Chicago firms only went to Harvard, Michigan, Chicago, and Northwestern for OCI for C/O 2011. Illinois, Wustl and Notre Dame are fucked for that year. I wonder if other markets followed suit.

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Grizz
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Grizz » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:43 pm

drylo wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
drylo wrote:
keg411 wrote:It also doesn't say that Vandy's clerkships were Article III clerkships (which are basically only the kind that are linked to BigLaw). My guess is much of that number is state court clerkships, which, while are great and lead to employment, are not going to lead to NLJ250-type employment and more likely place in small firm jobs.


The link shows what the clerkships are. Most are Art. III. Three are bankruptcy. Two state supreme courts. One Delaware chancery (which is no worse, and arguably better, than Art. III if you want to do corporate). And then a couple lower state courts (but a couple of these aren't class of 2010 anyway--maybe career clerks?--so they don't count in the 17%).


There's so few people who do clerk that even if 6-10 people turns out didn't do article 3, that 17% drops to something much lower.


That's basically true. I just said that most were Art. III. The exact numbers are on that site, but there are maybe 7-8 from class of 2010 that are not Art. III. That would make around 13-14% Art. III.

But if we are concerned with how much of the class has six-figure earning potential, you have to assume that the Delaware Chancery clerkship leads into an NLJ 250 firm (or at least the option of an NLJ 250 firm). Same very well may be true of bankruptcy and state supreme court, as well.


I calculated 10% Article III. There were some State Supremes tossed in there as well.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:59 pm

A little late to the game, but apparently Indiana--Bloomington has been fairly open tot he public with their employment statistics. I was a little shocked. Despite sub-average pay almost across the board, they seemed to place a good chunk of their class.

And then I read here that class of 2009 should have been pre-ITE.

dyingisforfools
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby dyingisforfools » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:08 pm

thesealocust wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?


It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.


I'm curious where you're getting this CCN grouping from since in every year they've (NYU) placed worse than at least one of MVPBDN and last year worse than 3 of them. In addition, they've never placed as well or better than CC.


Dude, give the NYU thing a rest, please. The post you're attacking isn't even about placement in general, it's about V10 firm placement. And CCN is absolutely a 'tier' with respect to top firm placement.

The V10, every year, contains 7-8 enormous NYC law firms that have HUGE biases in favor of NYU. Those are Wachtell, Cravath, S&C, Skadden, DPW, Simpson Thacher, Cleary, and Weil. Here is some hard data about why NYU wipes the fucking floor with MVPB et al.

Cliff notes version: yes, Columbia places a bit better than NYU. These data prove that. NYU also has two to three times the number of attorneys in V10 firms than Penn or UVA. You could try to argue that UVA is self selecting away from NYC, but no way in hell that holds for Penn - and NYU still wipes the floor with Penn.

Firm / Current Attorneys:

WLRK:
-------
Harvard: 46
Columbia: 47
NYU: 31
Penn: 16
UVA: 2

Cravath:
-------
Harvard: 78
Columbia: 96
NYU: 45
Penn: 30
UVA: 8

S&C:
-------
Harvard: 118
Columbia: 96
NYU: 70
Penn: 34
UVA: 37

Skadden:
-------
Harvard: 3 pages worth of results
Columbia: 3 pages worth of results
NYU: 3 pages worth of results
Penn: 1 page of results
Virginia: 1 page of results

DPW:
-------
Harvard: 164
Columbia: 121
NYU: 96
Penn: 24
Virginia: 25

STB (NYC Office only)
-------
Harvard: 73
Columbia: 94
NYU: 74
Penn: 48
UVA: 41

Cleary:
-------
Harvard: 157
Columbia: 138
NYU: 142
Penn: 36
UVA: 10

Weil (may include undegrad / be quite inaccurate)
-------
Harvard: 90
Columbia: 120
NYU: 114
Penn: 91
VA: 50


THIS IS THE WRONG WAY TO INTERPRET THESE STATISTICS. THERE ARE 450 1L STUDENTS AT NYU LAW; THERE ARE 250 1L STUDENTS IN A PENN LAW. YOU SHOULD SCALE THE PENN NUMBERS BY MULTIPLYING THEM BY 450/250=1.8. THIS IS THE RATIO OF THE ENTERING CLASS SIZE OF NYU TO THAT OF PENN.

LET ME HELP YOU:

WLRK
NYU 31
PENN 28.8

CRAVATH
NYU 45
PENN 54

S&C
NYU 70
PENN 61.2

DPW
NYU 96
PENN 43.2

STB (NYC OFFICE ONLY)
NYU 74
PENN 86.4

CLEARY
NYU 113
PENN 64.8

WEIL-COULD BE INACCURATE SINCE STATS INCLUDE UGRAD
NYU 114
PENN 163.8

SO MAYBE IT WASN'T A COINCIDENCE THAT NYU HAD "TWO OR THREE TIMES" THE NUMBER OF ASSOCIATES CONSIDERING THAT NYU HAS NEARLY TWICE AS MANY STUDENTS AS PENN. MY ANALYSIS DOES NOT EVEN CONSIDER THE FACT THAT NYU HAS ONLY MARGINALLY BETTER EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES THAN PENN, DESPITE HAVING A MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE LSAT INTERQUARTILE RANGE.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:24 pm

What the hell is a more competitive LSAT interquartile range?

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JG Hall
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby JG Hall » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:25 pm

dyingisforfools wrote:THIS IS THE WRONG WAY TO INTERPRET THESE STATISTICS. THERE ARE 450 1L STUDENTS AT NYU LAW; THERE ARE 250 1L STUDENTS IN A PENN LAW. YOU SHOULD SCALE THE PENN NUMBERS BY MULTIPLYING THEM BY 450/250=1.8. THIS IS THE RATIO OF THE ENTERING CLASS SIZE OF NYU TO THAT OF PENN.

LET ME HELP YOU:

WLRK
NYU 31
PENN 28.8

CRAVATH
NYU 45
PENN 54

S&C
NYU 70
PENN 61.2

DPW
NYU 96
PENN 43.2

STB (NYC OFFICE ONLY)
NYU 74
PENN 86.4

CLEARY
NYU 113
PENN 64.8

WEIL-COULD BE INACCURATE SINCE STATS INCLUDE UGRAD
NYU 114
PENN 163.8

SO MAYBE IT WASN'T A COINCIDENCE THAT NYU HAD "TWO OR THREE TIMES" THE NUMBER OF ASSOCIATES CONSIDERING THAT NYU HAS NEARLY TWICE AS MANY STUDENTS AS PENN. MY ANALYSIS DOES NOT EVEN CONSIDER THE FACT THAT NYU HAS ONLY MARGINALLY BETTER EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES THAN PENN, DESPITE HAVING A MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE LSAT INTERQUARTILE RANGE.

you made an alt to troll for Penn in ALL CAPS. notwinning.

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theturkeyisfat
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby theturkeyisfat » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:28 pm


THIS IS THE WRONG WAY TO INTERPRET THESE STATISTICS. THERE ARE 450 1L STUDENTS AT NYU LAW; THERE ARE 250 1L STUDENTS IN A PENN LAW. YOU SHOULD SCALE THE PENN NUMBERS BY MULTIPLYING THEM BY 450/250=1.8. THIS IS THE RATIO OF THE ENTERING CLASS SIZE OF NYU TO THAT OF PENN.

LET ME HELP YOU:

WLRK
NYU 31
PENN 28.8

CRAVATH
NYU 45
PENN 54

S&C
NYU 70
PENN 61.2

DPW
NYU 96
PENN 43.2

STB (NYC OFFICE ONLY)
NYU 74
PENN 86.4

CLEARY
NYU 113
PENN 64.8

WEIL-COULD BE INACCURATE SINCE STATS INCLUDE UGRAD
NYU 114
PENN 163.8

SO MAYBE IT WASN'T A COINCIDENCE THAT NYU HAD "TWO OR THREE TIMES" THE NUMBER OF ASSOCIATES CONSIDERING THAT NYU HAS NEARLY TWICE AS MANY STUDENTS AS PENN. MY ANALYSIS DOES NOT EVEN CONSIDER THE FACT THAT NYU HAS ONLY MARGINALLY BETTER EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES THAN PENN, DESPITE HAVING A MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE LSAT INTERQUARTILE RANGE.


YOU CAN FIND THE CAPSLOCK BUTTON ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF YOUR KEYBOARD.

also, i understand that ITE means after the economic crisis/legal market bust, but what do the three letters stand for exactly?

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:06 pm

theturkeyisfat wrote:also, i understand that ITE means after the economic crisis/legal market bust, but what do the three letters stand for exactly?

In this economy.

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lisjjen
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby lisjjen » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:09 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
theturkeyisfat wrote:also, i understand that ITE means after the economic crisis/legal market bust, but what do the three letters stand for exactly?

In this economy.


Though it gets thrown around contextually all over the place.

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tome
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby tome » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:56 pm

I am no Penn fanboy, but even if you don't like his CAPS, you gotta admit he embarrassed the NYU troll.

snldude
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby snldude » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:03 pm

So if the economy doesn't get any better or worse, what are we thinking these numbers are going to look like for the class of 2014? better than this list? about the same?

i'm trying to decide whether to go to law school in the US (most likely UVA) or Canada (most like Toronto). my Canadian friends tell me that the market up there is much better, although the top salaries will never match those in the US (less risk, less reward). But if the numbers look like this Go-To list for my graduating class, UVA seems like a reasonable gamble.

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Malcolm8X
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Malcolm8X » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:09 pm

snldude wrote:So if the economy doesn't get any better or worse, what are we thinking these numbers are going to look like for the class of 2014? better than this list? about the same?

i'm trying to decide whether to go to law school in the US (most likely UVA) or Canada (most like Toronto). my Canadian friends tell me that the market up there is much better, although the top salaries will never match those in the US (less risk, less reward). But if the numbers look like this Go-To list for my graduating class, UVA seems like a reasonable gamble.


I wonder how law school is in Canada.. Is it as expensive (I highly doubt that)? What are the median salaries?

Trequartista
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Trequartista » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:24 pm

Malcolm8X wrote:
snldude wrote:So if the economy doesn't get any better or worse, what are we thinking these numbers are going to look like for the class of 2014? better than this list? about the same?

i'm trying to decide whether to go to law school in the US (most likely UVA) or Canada (most like Toronto). my Canadian friends tell me that the market up there is much better, although the top salaries will never match those in the US (less risk, less reward). But if the numbers look like this Go-To list for my graduating class, UVA seems like a reasonable gamble.


I wonder how law school is in Canada.. Is it as expensive (I highly doubt that)? What are the median salaries?


University of Toronto which is far and away the most expensive law school in Canada, has tution fees of around 32k for international students. Other law schools are even cheaper.

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Helmholtz
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:41 pm

nael wrote:
Malcolm8X wrote:
snldude wrote:So if the economy doesn't get any better or worse, what are we thinking these numbers are going to look like for the class of 2014? better than this list? about the same?

i'm trying to decide whether to go to law school in the US (most likely UVA) or Canada (most like Toronto). my Canadian friends tell me that the market up there is much better, although the top salaries will never match those in the US (less risk, less reward). But if the numbers look like this Go-To list for my graduating class, UVA seems like a reasonable gamble.


I wonder how law school is in Canada.. Is it as expensive (I highly doubt that)? What are the median salaries?


University of Toronto which is far and away the most expensive law school in Canada, has tution fees of around 32k for international students. Other law schools are even cheaper.


Of course bigCANADAlaw isn't exactly alluring, by any means.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:43 pm

Duno, how much does BIGCANADALAW pay?

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Helmholtz
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:44 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Duno, how much does BIGCANADALAW pay?


Not much, and I think they have some weird apprentice thing set up so you can't even get started right away after graduating from LS. fuck that

snldude
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby snldude » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:48 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Duno, how much does BIGCANADALAW pay?

You have to article for a year at $75,000. Then your salary increases approximately as follows: $100,000, $110,000. $130,000, $150,000, $170,000...plus a bonus, which largely depends on how many hours you bill. You can expect to work very long hours.

Considerably less than the US, but I think that if you do reasonably well at Toronto, you're pretty much in. So less stress/risk. I'd most likely be paying international tuition (32K) first year and domestic after that (~20K) because I've lived there for several years and should have permanent residency by then.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:49 pm

snldude wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Duno, how much does BIGCANADALAW pay?

You have to article for a year at $75,000. Then your salary increases approximately as follows: $100,000, $110,000. $130,000, $150,000, $170,000...plus a bonus, which largely depends on how many hours you bill. You can expect to work very long hours.

Considerably less than the US, but I think that if you do reasonably well at Toronto, you're pretty much in. So less stress/risk. I'd most likely be paying international tuition (32K) first year and domestic after that (~20K) because I've lived there for several years and should have permanent residency by then.


Bigcanadalaw sounds nice. How hard is it to get from a top Canadian school? And how hard is it to get into a top Canadian school?

snldude
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby snldude » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:07 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
snldude wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Duno, how much does BIGCANADALAW pay?

You have to article for a year at $75,000. Then your salary increases approximately as follows: $100,000, $110,000. $130,000, $150,000, $170,000...plus a bonus, which largely depends on how many hours you bill. You can expect to work very long hours.

Considerably less than the US, but I think that if you do reasonably well at Toronto, you're pretty much in. So less stress/risk. I'd most likely be paying international tuition (32K) first year and domestic after that (~20K) because I've lived there for several years and should have permanent residency by then.


Bigcanadalaw sounds nice. How hard is it to get from a top Canadian school? And how hard is it to get into a top Canadian school?

Those were the numbers from the big law firms in Toronto. You'll make less in secondary markets (Vancouver, Calgary). I don't know the exact numbers, but from what I've heard from lawyers and law students, if you are at U of Toronto and your grades aren't terrible and you don't blow the interviews, you'll get a biglaw job in Toronto. I got in there with a 3.4 and a 170 so I don't think it's terribly hard. I think you'll need to distinguish yourself more if you go to a different law school.

I'm considering it because I have lots of friends in Toronto and know I like the city. I got in at 2 T14s and I'm pretty sure I can cut it at those, but I'm just really worried about not getting a job and struggling to pay off debt for the next 10 years of my life. But I think part of me will always wonder how I could have done in the US.

Trequartista
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Trequartista » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:55 am

snldude wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Duno, how much does BIGCANADALAW pay?

You have to article for a year at $75,000. Then your salary increases approximately as follows: $100,000, $110,000. $130,000, $150,000, $170,000...plus a bonus, which largely depends on how many hours you bill. You can expect to work very long hours.

Considerably less than the US, but I think that if you do reasonably well at Toronto, you're pretty much in. So less stress/risk. I'd most likely be paying international tuition (32K) first year and domestic after that (~20K) because I've lived there for several years and should have permanent residency by then.


I think Toronto is a great deal. Most recent stats put placement into Canadian biglaw at 55& and a further 10 to 15% go to NYC biglaw. There are also clerkships and government positions.

Apart from Toronto though, it is really foolish to go to Canada. Osgoode places only a third of its class into Canadian Biglaw and other schools place even lower. But yeah if you can get into Toronto, then that's probably as good a deal as you are going to get outside of the T-14.

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BruceWayne
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:41 pm

thesealocust wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?


It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.


I'm curious where you're getting this CCN grouping from since in every year they've (NYU) placed worse than at least one of MVPBDN and last year worse than 3 of them. In addition, they've never placed as well or better than CC.


Dude, give the NYU thing a rest, please. The post you're attacking isn't even about placement in general, it's about V10 firm placement. And CCN is absolutely a 'tier' with respect to top firm placement.

The V10, every year, contains 7-8 enormous NYC law firms that have HUGE biases in favor of NYU. Those are Wachtell, Cravath, S&C, Skadden, DPW, Simpson Thacher, Cleary, and Weil. Here is some hard data about why NYU wipes the fucking floor with MVPB et al.

Cliff notes version: yes, Columbia places a bit better than NYU. These data prove that. NYU also has two to three times the number of attorneys in V10 firms than Penn or UVA. You could try to argue that UVA is self selecting away from NYC, but no way in hell that holds for Penn - and NYU still wipes the floor with Penn.

Firm / Current Attorneys:

WLRK:
-------
Harvard: 46
Columbia: 47
NYU: 31
Penn: 16
UVA: 2

Cravath:
-------
Harvard: 78
Columbia: 96
NYU: 45
Penn: 30
UVA: 8

S&C:
-------
Harvard: 118
Columbia: 96
NYU: 70
Penn: 34
UVA: 37

Skadden:
-------
Harvard: 3 pages worth of results
Columbia: 3 pages worth of results
NYU: 3 pages worth of results
Penn: 1 page of results
Virginia: 1 page of results

DPW:
-------
Harvard: 164
Columbia: 121
NYU: 96
Penn: 24
Virginia: 25

STB (NYC Office only)
-------
Harvard: 73
Columbia: 94
NYU: 74
Penn: 48
UVA: 41

Cleary:
-------
Harvard: 157
Columbia: 138
NYU: 142
Penn: 36
UVA: 10

Weil (may include undegrad / be quite inaccurate)
-------
Harvard: 90
Columbia: 120
NYU: 114
Penn: 91
VA: 50



I just want to make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly. So what you're saying is that, since NYU places more students into NYC firms, even though it's located in NYC and has a much bigger class size than any of MVPB, it is therefore on a higher tier in placement than MVPB? And you're saying that this is also true despite the fact that NYU has come out behind at least one of MVPB and even Northwestern in every year that the nlj has tracked placement? And even though nlj measures placement into nlj250 firms nationwide, as opposed to just one city---which happens to be the city where NYU is located-- like the measure that you used, NYU is on a higher tier? Is that all correct?
Last edited by BruceWayne on Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby UnitarySpace » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:38 pm

combined with the fact that nyc is where the jerbs are at. yes, that is what he's saying.

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BruceWayne
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:56 pm

UnitarySpace wrote:combined with the fact that nyc is where the jerbs are at. yes, that is what he's saying.


Oh, I wasn't aware that legal employers don't exist outside of NYC; my mistake.

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rman1201
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby rman1201 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:02 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Oh, I wasn't aware that legal employers don't exist outside of NYC; my mistake.


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