2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

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BruceWayne
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:00 am

rayiner wrote:What do you mean "put on Google"? Google just indexes websites. It'll crawl TLS, but forum posts don't tend to end up high on the ranking b/c nobody links to them. And nobody is going to put up a website with data their OCI told to keep under wraps.

As for Penn, etc, my point isn't that CCN is a cluster based on the data showing NYU and CLS having similar placement. I use "HYSCCN" because it's a known benchmark right now, not to imply that Penn, etc, didn't do as well.


In other words anything to show that these "numbers" are more than just hearsay. At this point that's all they are. There is no way to access the autoadmit "data". It's just figures that people on TLS an autoadmit have been spitting out. In contrast I can google the statistics collected by the nlj placement surveys with ease--including those from past years. These "numbers" are essentially just TLS mantra at this point.


in all fairness if you adjust for class size, NYU may come out ahead of Penn but i wouldn't say it's wiping the floor with them from those numbers

Not only that, but when you consider that NYU is located in NYC, it's pretty striking how small the difference is. Really, if someone has the option of both schools and they know they want NYC biglaw, it might be better to go to Penn to save money on the Philly COL.

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rayiner
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby rayiner » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:07 am

BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:What do you mean "put on Google"? Google just indexes websites. It'll crawl TLS, but forum posts don't tend to end up high on the ranking b/c nobody links to them. And nobody is going to put up a website with data their OCI told to keep under wraps.

As for Penn, etc, my point isn't that CCN is a cluster based on the data showing NYU and CLS having similar placement. I use "HYSCCN" because it's a known benchmark right now, not to imply that Penn, etc, didn't do as well.


In other words anything to show that these "numbers" are more than just hearsay. At this point that's all they are.


This is a discussion board, not a courtroom. If you don't believe me when I say that I saw that NU had X% placement at our town hall meeting then you're free to not believe me.

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BruceWayne
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:12 am

rayiner wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:What do you mean "put on Google"? Google just indexes websites. It'll crawl TLS, but forum posts don't tend to end up high on the ranking b/c nobody links to them. And nobody is going to put up a website with data their OCI told to keep under wraps.

As for Penn, etc, my point isn't that CCN is a cluster based on the data showing NYU and CLS having similar placement. I use "HYSCCN" because it's a known benchmark right now, not to imply that Penn, etc, didn't do as well.


In other words anything to show that these "numbers" are more than just hearsay. At this point that's all they are.


This is a discussion board, not a courtroom. If you don't believe me when I say that I saw that NU had X% placement at our town hall meeting then you're free to not believe me.


Clearly I was talking more about NYU (as my post implicated by referencing the "CCN" distinction created by TLS and by specifically naming NYU). In addition, there's no need to believe you in regards to NU; the nlj stats specifically show NU doing better than NYU in multiple years--and even doing better than CC in one year (not to mention that it's asinine for me to dispute information about a school that you actually attend). I was more interested in your placement "data" for NYU that shows them placing 70 percent of the class into firms through OCI. And your "data" that proves that this is more/better than what MVBP placed.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:17 am

BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:Data has been leaking out of OCS-es for quite awhile now. Concrete data exists for CLS, NYU, Cornell, Duke, and NU.


I'm not finding it on google. Where is it? Or again, are we talking about the OCS "data" that's been "available" on/from autoadmit for a while? I know that that was "leaked" some time ago. But I haven't been able to find anything else.


Cornell leaked a list of where their 2011 people spent the summer. It added up to about 40%.

I don't know anything from MPV or Duke. But I heard 50-60% tossed around. I'm guessing it's closer to 50%.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:22 am

Desert Fox wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:Data has been leaking out of OCS-es for quite awhile now. Concrete data exists for CLS, NYU, Cornell, Duke, and NU.


I'm not finding it on google. Where is it? Or again, are we talking about the OCS "data" that's been "available" on/from autoadmit for a while? I know that that was "leaked" some time ago. But I haven't been able to find anything else.


Cornell leaked a list of where their 2011 people spent the summer. It added up to about 40%.

I don't know anything from MPV or Duke. But I heard 50-60% tossed around. I'm guessing it's closer to 50%.


Only 40%? Seems like this was an anomaly for Cornell then.

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rayiner
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby rayiner » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:44 am

FiveSermon wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
rayiner wrote:Data has been leaking out of OCS-es for quite awhile now. Concrete data exists for CLS, NYU, Cornell, Duke, and NU.


I'm not finding it on google. Where is it? Or again, are we talking about the OCS "data" that's been "available" on/from autoadmit for a while? I know that that was "leaked" some time ago. But I haven't been able to find anything else.


Cornell leaked a list of where their 2011 people spent the summer. It added up to about 40%.

I don't know anything from MPV or Duke. But I heard 50-60% tossed around. I'm guessing it's closer to 50%.


Only 40%? Seems like this was an anomaly for Cornell then.


I think there is a secondary factor helping Cornell beyond just offer rates in NY. Their NY job fair was in early August in 2009. NY firms give callbacks within a couple of days, and offers usually within a week of the callback. That means Cornell students had several weeks to get their callbacks done and have offers in hand before Lehman collapsed. In markets where the callback season extends well into September (Chicago, West Coast) and even October (the South) people felt more of the burnt of the recession at OCI season.

Cornell had 90% firm placement for C/O 2010's 2L summer: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... charts.pdf

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:47 am

I think there is a secondary factor helping Cornell beyond just offer rates in NY. Their NY job fair was in early August in 2009. NY firms give callbacks within a couple of days, and offers usually within a week of the callback. That means Cornell students had several weeks to get their callbacks done and have offers in hand before Lehman collapsed. In markets where the callback season extends well into September (Chicago, West Coast) and even October (the South) people felt more of the burnt of the recession at OCI season.

Cornell had 90% firm placement for C/O 2010's 2L summer: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... charts.pdf


That's a really interesting point. Is it valid though? Don't most schools have their job fair around that time?

Edit: Cornell class of 2010 and 2011 data on ATL here.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

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rayiner
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby rayiner » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:14 am

FiveSermon wrote:
I think there is a secondary factor helping Cornell beyond just offer rates in NY. Their NY job fair was in early August in 2009. NY firms give callbacks within a couple of days, and offers usually within a week of the callback. That means Cornell students had several weeks to get their callbacks done and have offers in hand before Lehman collapsed. In markets where the callback season extends well into September (Chicago, West Coast) and even October (the South) people felt more of the burnt of the recession at OCI season.

Cornell had 90% firm placement for C/O 2010's 2L summer: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... charts.pdf


That's a really interesting point. Is it valid though? Don't most schools have their job fair around that time?


Early August is pretty common, but many schools have later OCIs. The issue I'm getting at, though, isn't so much when the OCI was, but rather the fact that the NYC market moves so fast compared to the other markets and Cornell/Penn/Columbia students almost all target NYC. Ie: at Cornell you have OCI in early August and 90% of your class targets NYC and 80% have job offers by September. At Michigan you have OCI in early August and people target LA, Chicago, etc, and in mid September lots of people are still waiting to go on/hear from their callbacks.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:18 am

rayiner wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
I think there is a secondary factor helping Cornell beyond just offer rates in NY. Their NY job fair was in early August in 2009. NY firms give callbacks within a couple of days, and offers usually within a week of the callback. That means Cornell students had several weeks to get their callbacks done and have offers in hand before Lehman collapsed. In markets where the callback season extends well into September (Chicago, West Coast) and even October (the South) people felt more of the burnt of the recession at OCI season.

Cornell had 90% firm placement for C/O 2010's 2L summer: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... charts.pdf


That's a really interesting point. Is it valid though? Don't most schools have their job fair around that time?


Early August is pretty common, but many schools have later OCIs. The issue I'm getting at, though, isn't so much when the OCI was, but rather the fact that the NYC market moves so fast compared to the other markets and Cornell/Penn/Columbia students almost all target NYC. Ie: at Cornell you have OCI in early August and 90% of your class targets NYC and 80% have job offers by September. At Michigan you have OCI in early August and people target LA, Chicago, etc, and in mid September lots of people are still waiting to go on/hear from their callbacks.


Yeah. Well I've returned to my previous thought that Cornell at sticker is insane. I guess as hard as it may be to say...it's time to start reprepping and hoping for the best.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby cornellbeez » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:27 am

FiveSermon wrote:
I think there is a secondary factor helping Cornell beyond just offer rates in NY. Their NY job fair was in early August in 2009. NY firms give callbacks within a couple of days, and offers usually within a week of the callback. That means Cornell students had several weeks to get their callbacks done and have offers in hand before Lehman collapsed. In markets where the callback season extends well into September (Chicago, West Coast) and even October (the South) people felt more of the burnt of the recession at OCI season.

Cornell had 90% firm placement for C/O 2010's 2L summer: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... charts.pdf


That's a really interesting point. Is it valid though? Don't most schools have their job fair around that time?

Edit: Cornell class of 2010 and 2011 data on ATL here.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/


Yeah, Cornell placed 40% into biglaw for the Class of 2011, which is far less than what the Class of 2010 placed.

Class of 2010 placement doesn't accurately depict what happened to Classes 2011 and 2012, so people should really stop trolling.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:30 am

cornellbeez wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
I think there is a secondary factor helping Cornell beyond just offer rates in NY. Their NY job fair was in early August in 2009. NY firms give callbacks within a couple of days, and offers usually within a week of the callback. That means Cornell students had several weeks to get their callbacks done and have offers in hand before Lehman collapsed. In markets where the callback season extends well into September (Chicago, West Coast) and even October (the South) people felt more of the burnt of the recession at OCI season.

Cornell had 90% firm placement for C/O 2010's 2L summer: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... charts.pdf


That's a really interesting point. Is it valid though? Don't most schools have their job fair around that time?

Edit: Cornell class of 2010 and 2011 data on ATL here.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/


Yeah, Cornell placed 40% into biglaw for the Class of 2011, which is far less than what the Class of 2010 placed.

Class of 2010 placement doesn't accurately depict what happened to Classes 2011 and 2012, so people should really stop trolling.


So back to 40% it is. Hi there Georgetown. Glad to join you again.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Magnificent » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:24 am

BruceWayne wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Most schools either release or make available a substantial amount of data about OCI to their rising 2L classes. Most schools express in strict terms that all information is confidential and not to be distributed, for some good and some bad reasons. Many 2Ls/3Ls on this board have been in contact with each other during OCI and have seen spreadsheets and heard reports from various schools (Rayiner and I included).

You will not find anything on google. Very little has ever been publicly posted.

Anyway, plenty of proxies exist. Searching firm websites will give you a very good sense about firm popularity / hiring preferences. Almost all large firms have searchable attorney databases.


It's funny that you mention that. I've done that, and it tends to quickly display 2 things.

H and Y are ahead of everyone nationwide, with Stanford being pretty close.

C and C seem to be a little better than everyone other than the aforementioned

All the rest of the top 14 seem to be about the same except that they are stronger in their home markets.

Firm searches tend to show that the TLS tier thing is over done: basically it looks like HYS to a lesser extent CC and then everyone else.


actually I think its more

HY S CC

Stanford isn't quite on Harvard and Yale's level but it is a step above Columbia and Chicago.

Nationally there isn't a top 6. There is a top 5.

Only in New York does NYU group with CLS and UChicago.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby spondee » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:24 am

BruceWayne wrote:Clearly I was talking more about NYU (as my post implicated by referencing the "CCN" distinction created by TLS and by specifically naming NYU). In addition, there's no need to believe you in regards to NU; the nlj stats specifically show NU doing better than NYU in multiple years--and even doing better than CC in one year (not to mention that it's asinine for me to dispute information about a school that you actually attend). I was more interested in your placement "data" for NYU that shows them placing 70 percent of the class into firms through OCI. And your "data" that proves that this is more/better than what MVBP placed.


You believe the data from the other schools but you think everyone from NYU is lying? That's tinfoil-hat thinking.

And FWIW, I heard the CCN distinction before I found TLS. It was in some "How to Get Into Law School" book. Susan Estrich's, I think. CCN didn't start on TLS.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:32 pm

rayiner wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
I think there is a secondary factor helping Cornell beyond just offer rates in NY. Their NY job fair was in early August in 2009. NY firms give callbacks within a couple of days, and offers usually within a week of the callback. That means Cornell students had several weeks to get their callbacks done and have offers in hand before Lehman collapsed. In markets where the callback season extends well into September (Chicago, West Coast) and even October (the South) people felt more of the burnt of the recession at OCI season.

Cornell had 90% firm placement for C/O 2010's 2L summer: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... charts.pdf


That's a really interesting point. Is it valid though? Don't most schools have their job fair around that time?


Early August is pretty common, but many schools have later OCIs. The issue I'm getting at, though, isn't so much when the OCI was, but rather the fact that the NYC market moves so fast compared to the other markets and Cornell/Penn/Columbia students almost all target NYC. Ie: at Cornell you have OCI in early August and 90% of your class targets NYC and 80% have job offers by September. At Michigan you have OCI in early August and people target LA, Chicago, etc, and in mid September lots of people are still waiting to go on/hear from their callbacks.

These are both pretty important considerations for the 2008 OCI season, considering how the economy's collapse mid-OCI completely changed hiring, especially in non-NYC markets. Michigan (like nearly every law school) has moved its OCI up from where it was in 2008 (http://abovethelaw.com/2009/01/fall-oci-moves-up-at-michigan-law-school/). However, even now with OCI in mid-late August (whereas it may have actually been late August-early September in 2008) the earliest I could schedule my first callback this year (between NYC and other markets) was September 15th. While firms have a rough idea how many people they'll offer each school and it doesn't make a big difference that our OCI is closer to Harvard's rather than early like Cornell's when the economy is in a stable recovery, it made an enormous difference the year the economy imploded mid-OCI.

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rayiner
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby rayiner » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:48 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
rayiner wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
I think there is a secondary factor helping Cornell beyond just offer rates in NY. Their NY job fair was in early August in 2009. NY firms give callbacks within a couple of days, and offers usually within a week of the callback. That means Cornell students had several weeks to get their callbacks done and have offers in hand before Lehman collapsed. In markets where the callback season extends well into September (Chicago, West Coast) and even October (the South) people felt more of the burnt of the recession at OCI season.

Cornell had 90% firm placement for C/O 2010's 2L summer: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... charts.pdf


That's a really interesting point. Is it valid though? Don't most schools have their job fair around that time?


Early August is pretty common, but many schools have later OCIs. The issue I'm getting at, though, isn't so much when the OCI was, but rather the fact that the NYC market moves so fast compared to the other markets and Cornell/Penn/Columbia students almost all target NYC. Ie: at Cornell you have OCI in early August and 90% of your class targets NYC and 80% have job offers by September. At Michigan you have OCI in early August and people target LA, Chicago, etc, and in mid September lots of people are still waiting to go on/hear from their callbacks.

These are both pretty important considerations for the 2008 OCI season, considering how the economy's collapse mid-OCI completely changed hiring, especially in non-NYC markets. Michigan (like nearly every law school) has moved its OCI up from where it was in 2008 (http://abovethelaw.com/2009/01/fall-oci-moves-up-at-michigan-law-school/). However, even now with OCI in mid-late August (whereas it may have actually been late August-early September in 2008) the earliest I could schedule my first callback this year (between NYC and other markets) was September 15th. While firms have a rough idea how many people they'll offer each school and it doesn't make a big difference that our OCI is closer to Harvard's rather than early like Cornell's when the economy is in a stable recovery, it made an enormous difference the year the economy imploded mid-OCI.


Did you find that it varied strongly by market? I had my NYC callbacks the week after OCI and offers in hand by the first week of Sept. I didn't hear from Chicago and Atlanta until weeks later.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby UnitarySpace » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:56 pm

spondee wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Clearly I was talking more about NYU (as my post implicated by referencing the "CCN" distinction created by TLS and by specifically naming NYU). In addition, there's no need to believe you in regards to NU; the nlj stats specifically show NU doing better than NYU in multiple years--and even doing better than CC in one year (not to mention that it's asinine for me to dispute information about a school that you actually attend). I was more interested in your placement "data" for NYU that shows them placing 70 percent of the class into firms through OCI. And your "data" that proves that this is more/better than what MVBP placed.


You believe the data from the other schools but you think everyone from NYU is lying? That's tinfoil-hat thinking.

And FWIW, I heard the CCN distinction before I found TLS. It was in some "How to Get Into Law School" book. Susan Estrich's, I think. CCN didn't start on TLS.


Somebody should verify this. This would settle so much.

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nshapkar
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby nshapkar » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:24 pm

So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?

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pokerlaw
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby pokerlaw » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:25 pm

nshapkar wrote:So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?


No.

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beach_terror
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby beach_terror » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:25 pm

nshapkar wrote:So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?

Yes, this board is full of economists that can predict the future.

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hipstermafia
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby hipstermafia » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:27 pm

beach_terror wrote:
nshapkar wrote:So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?

Yes, this board is full of economists that can predict the future.

i loled

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nshapkar
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby nshapkar » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:42 pm

pokerlaw wrote:
nshapkar wrote:So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?


No.



will they at least level off and start coming up by then?

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nshapkar
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby nshapkar » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:44 pm

hipstermafia wrote:
beach_terror wrote:
nshapkar wrote:So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?

Yes, this board is full of economists that can predict the future.

i loled



I did too. This class just started and I've already gone through every website I could imagine....all that's left is tls and retarded questions fueled by thirty-two sleepless hours.

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pokerlaw
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby pokerlaw » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:00 pm

nshapkar wrote:
pokerlaw wrote:
nshapkar wrote:So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?


No.



will they at least level off and start coming up by then?


Maybe, but they won't get back to pre-ITE levels.

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thesealocust
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby thesealocust » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:10 pm

pokerlaw wrote:Maybe, but they won't get back to pre-ITE levels.


There really aren't any absolutes. If the economy experiences a huge boom that includes a demand for legal services, you bet your ass we'll get up to pre-ITE levels. Legal outsourcing and other factors contribute to a grim job outlook, but if somebody invents the internet again tomorrow and we have a new dot com boom, it'll all change.

In the future, the effects of the recent crisis should have died down, but it's impossible to say what new catastrophes or boom times lie around the corner.

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beachbum
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby beachbum » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:11 pm

pokerlaw wrote:
nshapkar wrote:
pokerlaw wrote:
nshapkar wrote:So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?


No.



will they at least level off and start coming up by then?


Maybe, but they won't get back to pre-ITE levels.


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