2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

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Ikki
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Ikki » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:59 pm

Thanks for putting me on Hold Columbia, now I know what upstate NY law school I'm attending. 8)

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BruceWayne
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:05 pm

beachbum wrote:Between the last two years of data, I think the only 0Ls who should be reconsidering where they attend (amongst the top schools) are those who are headed to NYU at sticker (or near-sticker). I just don't get it. NYU has the benefit of a (relatively) strong market in NYC, and it doesn't have a small class size to help explain its underwhelming performance.

When you combine this with the sky-high COL, I think it would definitely be worthwhile to review or reconsider a decision to attend NYU at full cost. The return on investment just isn't there relative to peer (?) schools, particularly when many NYU-caliber applicants receive scholarships at MVPDNC.


The reason you don't get it is because TLS pushes the idea of a "top 6" and NYU being a "higher" top 14 while MVBP etc. are "lower" top 14s. But the hard objective data has never shown this. Look at the lawyer/judge assessment scores, placement in NYC compared to CC and Penn, non NYC placement, and fed clerkship placement and you'll see that this idea of NYU being stronger than MVBP and somehow a peer school to C and C and some even say HYS and you'll see is absurd. It's based purely on their overall US News rank and people's affinity for going to a school located in NYC.

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Ikki
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Ikki » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:12 pm

How does Cornell manage to place so many students in the NYC market when it's a four hour drive from the city? You would think that distance would discourage firms from reaching almost into the top 60% of such school (It might be even deeper than the top 60% if there are people in the top 60% who don't want biglaw).

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:23 pm

Ikki wrote:How does Cornell manage to place so many students in the NYC market when it's a four hour drive from the city? You would think that distance would discourage firms from reaching almost into the top 60% of such school (It might be even deeper than the top 60% if there are people in the top 60% who don't want biglaw).

The only time most NYC firms come out to Ithaca is when they're wooing students they've already given offers to (offer dinners). Otherwise, we travel to them (NYC job fair, callbacks), so the distance doesn't really make a difference.

Although, I suppose firms do pay more for our callbacks than for NYU or Columbia students, since they pay to fly Cornell students down from Ithaca and put them up in a hotel. But if any firm was dissuaded from calling back a student due to the cost of their callback, the firm is likely about to tank anyway.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby UnitarySpace » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:24 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
beachbum wrote:Between the last two years of data, I think the only 0Ls who should be reconsidering where they attend (amongst the top schools) are those who are headed to NYU at sticker (or near-sticker). I just don't get it. NYU has the benefit of a (relatively) strong market in NYC, and it doesn't have a small class size to help explain its underwhelming performance.

When you combine this with the sky-high COL, I think it would definitely be worthwhile to review or reconsider a decision to attend NYU at full cost. The return on investment just isn't there relative to peer (?) schools, particularly when many NYU-caliber applicants receive scholarships at MVPDNC.


The reason you don't get it is because TLS pushes the idea of a "top 6" and NYU being a "higher" top 14 while MVBP etc. are "lower" top 14s. But the hard objective data has never shown this. Look at the lawyer/judge assessment scores, placement in NYC compared to CC and Penn, non NYC placement, and fed clerkship placement and you'll see that this idea of NYU being stronger than MVBP and somehow a peer school to C and C and some even say HYS and you'll see is absurd. It's based purely on their overall US News rank and people's affinity for going to a school located in NYC.


wat? nyu and cls compete for the same nyc biglaw jobs. they have almost identical success rates at oci. /enddiscussion

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drylo
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby drylo » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:27 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
rad law wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One thing to consider is that NYC had pretty solid offer rates in for 2009 Summer Associates. Southern firms had atrocious no offer rates.

The exact opposite happened the year before. It's why NYC placing schools went UP in placement, and Southern placing firms dropped. The same thing happened in the midwest, but not as terrible. NYC firms took their lumps a year earlier. DC firms didn't really no offer as much.

The only thing I can't explain is NYU. Places mostly in NYC.

YS
H
CCN
MVPDNC
G


So true. Look at ATL. Place is a shit hole. FL is a shit hole. People in Nash firms got no offered like crazy. Other Southern markets are small as shit.

I did look at the full Vandy employment data. I did see a bunch of midsize firms, especially in Nash and other Southern markets. Article III was still 10%.


Southern firms have really low offer rates period - even before the crash. Thus, if anyone is reading this in choosing between a NYC big firm and a non-texas southern big firm, go with the former always. With NYC (and other non-southern firms), the competition ends when you receive an offer to be a summer associate - the offer for post-graduate employment is generally yours to lose. With southern firms, the competition does not end with the summer associate offer but when you have the actual fully time employment offer in your hand - and these are only given to around 25% of the summer associates.


Two things:

First, the statement that Southern firms have lower offer rates generally is not borne out in my experience (current 2L, but from what I have seen).

Second, to address Vandy specifically... The biggest firms in Nashville were hit really, really hard. The Vandy numbers for class of 2010 reflects very high no-offer rates at NLJ 250 firms that took a lot of Vandy students in the summer of 2009. I don't know exactly how much that explains (or why Nashville firms seemed to take it on the chin so bad), but it is very significant. Also, keep in mind that I believe Vandy (like many of the other schools on the list) has a pretty good number of 2010 grads clerking right now--I'm sure the specific figure is out there somewhere.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby UnitarySpace » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Percentages of the Class of 2010 Who got a full time offer AFTER their SA - by city

NYC - 86.3
Los Angeles 78.5
Chicago -74.7
DC/NOVA- 72.8
Dallas 52
Minneapolis - 48

Here is a pdf that has a lot more cities and by region on page 11. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFallRec09.pdf

This is the reason for so much random change.

They will release info soon about this years, but it's going to be a lot better. Many firms had 100% offer rates. But then again less of them were hired in the first places.


@drylo
Addressing your first point. Well to the extent that Dallas is representative of the south. Dunno anything about that actually.

edit: actually the pdf is pretty informative. p.11 as indicated by Desert Fox

rundoxierun
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby rundoxierun » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:38 pm

H placed around 20% in art. III clerkships, Yale placed around 30%(I think), anyone know the figure for S? It has to be less than Yale.

(Not that this matters, just curious)

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby legalnoeagle » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:38 pm

UnitarySpace wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
beachbum wrote:Between the last two years of data, I think the only 0Ls who should be reconsidering where they attend (amongst the top schools) are those who are headed to NYU at sticker (or near-sticker). I just don't get it. NYU has the benefit of a (relatively) strong market in NYC, and it doesn't have a small class size to help explain its underwhelming performance.

When you combine this with the sky-high COL, I think it would definitely be worthwhile to review or reconsider a decision to attend NYU at full cost. The return on investment just isn't there relative to peer (?) schools, particularly when many NYU-caliber applicants receive scholarships at MVPDNC.


The reason you don't get it is because TLS pushes the idea of a "top 6" and NYU being a "higher" top 14 while MVBP etc. are "lower" top 14s. But the hard objective data has never shown this. Look at the lawyer/judge assessment scores, placement in NYC compared to CC and Penn, non NYC placement, and fed clerkship placement and you'll see that this idea of NYU being stronger than MVBP and somehow a peer school to C and C and some even say HYS and you'll see is absurd. It's based purely on their overall US News rank and people's affinity for going to a school located in NYC.


wat? nyu and cls compete for the same nyc biglaw jobs. they have almost identical success rates at oci. /enddiscussion


This.

Now, if you're telling me that you'd rather be sitting at median at MVBP than NYU for OCI, then godspeed.

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BruceWayne
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:44 pm

UnitarySpace wrote:wat? nyu and cls compete for the same nyc biglaw jobs. they have almost identical success rates at oci. /end of usual TLS hearsay/USNWR ranked based conecture


The facts speak for themselves. NYU has never been a peer with CLS and UChi in anything other than overall USNWR rank. They've lagged behind CC in placement for years,

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Last edited by BruceWayne on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
beachbum wrote:Between the last two years of data, I think the only 0Ls who should be reconsidering where they attend (amongst the top schools) are those who are headed to NYU at sticker (or near-sticker). I just don't get it. NYU has the benefit of a (relatively) strong market in NYC, and it doesn't have a small class size to help explain its underwhelming performance.

When you combine this with the sky-high COL, I think it would definitely be worthwhile to review or reconsider a decision to attend NYU at full cost. The return on investment just isn't there relative to peer (?) schools, particularly when many NYU-caliber applicants receive scholarships at MVPDNC.


The reason you don't get it is because TLS pushes the idea of a "top 6" and NYU being a "higher" top 14 while MVBP etc. are "lower" top 14s. But the hard objective data has never shown this. Look at the lawyer/judge assessment scores, placement in NYC compared to CC and Penn, non NYC placement, and fed clerkship placement and you'll see that this idea of NYU being stronger than MVBP and somehow a peer school to C and C and some even say HYS and you'll see is absurd. It's based purely on their overall US News rank and people's affinity for going to a school located in NYC.


wat? nyu and cls compete for the same nyc biglaw jobs. they have almost identical success rates at oci. /enddiscussion


This.

Now, if you're telling me that you'd rather be sitting at median at MVBP than NYU for OCI, then godspeed.


You literally have no basis for this claim. What you're going to respond with is some argument that you made up, based on conjecture, about self selection/pi NY being hit hard before other markets (although CLS is still out pacing NYU and it's located smack dab in NYC as well) and then you'll say something about "70 percent placed into jobs from OCI" that's been quoted on autoadmit.com TLS almost never bases its assertions on facts. And when they do see facts, they start coming up with self selection and other conjecture based arguments so that they can align with the overall US News rankings. People really need to preface these conjecture based assertions with warnings that they're just he personal opinion. If you want to say that NYU gives you a better shot at a firm job than say Penn, then just make sure that you let people know that that may or may not be true. And that it's just how you personally feel about it. Don't go around telling people that what you're saying is an objective truth--it's not. Let them know that this is what you heard on TLS or autoadmit, and that it aligns with the US News rankings; that that's why you're saying that.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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drylo
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby drylo » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:57 pm

UnitarySpace wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Percentages of the Class of 2010 Who got a full time offer AFTER their SA - by city

NYC - 86.3
Los Angeles 78.5
Chicago -74.7
DC/NOVA- 72.8
Dallas 52
Minneapolis - 48

Here is a pdf that has a lot more cities and by region on page 11. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFallRec09.pdf

This is the reason for so much random change.

They will release info soon about this years, but it's going to be a lot better. Many firms had 100% offer rates. But then again less of them were hired in the first places.


@drylo
Addressing your first point. Well to the extent that Dallas is representative of the south. Dunno anything about that actually.

edit: actually the pdf is pretty informative. p.11 as indicated by Desert Fox


OK. I know nothing about Dallas, for one thing. I was thinking more secondary markets--Dallas and Houston are definitely major markets compared to most in the South. I also have to admit that I did not realize that offer rates in NYC were that high.

At any rate, offer rates over the last two summers are probably not representative of much of anything, anyway. Now that I think about it, I was referring to historical stats that I have found out about many of the firms that I interviewed with, and some of them with similar approaches to SA offers in the past have had differing offer rates recently, especially summer of 2009.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby slacker » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:14 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:wat? nyu and cls compete for the same nyc biglaw jobs. they have almost identical success rates at oci. /end of usual TLS hearsay/USNWR ranked based conecture


The facts speak for themselves. NYU has never been a peer with CLS and UChi in anything other than overall USNWR rank. They've lagged behind CC in placement for years,

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Didn't everything you just show portray CCN as peers? Or am I blind? No idea how you say NYU isn't stronger than MVPB. Based on that data at least.

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BruceWayne
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:26 pm

slacker wrote:Didn't everything you just show portray CCN as peers? Or am I blind? No idea how you say NYU isn't stronger than MVPB. Based on that data at least.


What are you talking about? Every one of those studies shows NYU behind CLS and Chicago (literally, in every one of them NYU places behind C and UChi). And in everyone of them at least one of MVBP (or an even lower ranked--according to US News at least-- school like NU) is ahead of NYU. For the past 2 years UVA has been ahead of them, and in the 2 previous years either NU or Penn have been ahead. And again C and UChi have never been behind NYU. The assessment scores shows NYU being behind C and C and UVA in every year. Why is TLS so obssessed with their self created idea of a "top 6", to the point where they are willing to actively ignore facts if that's what they have to do to support it?

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Attorney
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Attorney » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:35 pm

YourCaptain wrote:Dear LULSTL,

ND: 20% NLJ SECURE
WUSTL: T19 (LOL) SECURE

:D

Can anyone help me find just one ND student not insecure about WUSTL academic rankings?

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jcunni5
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby jcunni5 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:40 pm

Bruce has a point, NYU is behind VPB in a year when NYC feeder schools did very well (see Cornell, Columbia, Penn). Granted there could be many factors (PI, Clerkships, etc) but it does seem that NYU is hurting and certainly not on par with CC ITE.

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KMaine
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby KMaine » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:41 pm

Attorney wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:Dear LULSTL,

ND: 20% NLJ SECURE
WUSTL: T19 (LOL) SECURE

:D

Can anyone help me find just one ND student not insecure about WUSTL academic rankings?


I looked for them, but they were too busy having jobs.

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Attorney
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Attorney » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:45 pm

KMaine wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:Dear LULSTL,

ND: 20% NLJ SECURE
WUSTL: T19 (LOL) SECURE

:D

Can anyone help me find just one ND student not insecure about WUSTL academic rankings?


I looked for them, but they were too busy having jobs.

Does not compute. The record-high spread this year was what, 4%? Wow! 1 out of every 25 students makes all the difference, amirite? Also, this just in.. academic rankings not based on placement rankings. :P

You're both funny though.

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facetious
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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby facetious » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:02 pm

just for the record, here is NYU's PI placement for the class of 2010.

Government (19)
Legislative Office of Congressman Jim Marshall, Washington, D.C.
New Jersey Attorney General, Deputy Attorney General, Newark, NJ
New York State Insurance Fund, New York, NY
NYU – NYPD Law Graduate Fellowship, New York, NY
Presidential Management Fellowship, U.S. Internal Revenue Service, Office of Chief Counsel, Exempt Organizations Division, Washington, D.C.
NYU School of Law, Tax Policy Fellowship, Joint Committee on Taxation, Washington, D.C.
NYU School of Law, Tax Policy Fellowship, Treasury Department, Washington, D.C.
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Chief Counsel’s Civilian Honors Program, Philadelphia, PA
U.S. Army JAG, Washington, D.C.
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region 1 Honors Attorney Fellowship, Boston, MA
U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, Office of General Counsel Legal Honors Program, New York, NY
U.S. Department of Justice Honors Program, Antitrust Division
U.S. Department of Justice Honors Program, Executive Office of Immigration Review, New York, NY
U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Attorney Honors Program, New York, NY
U.S. Navy JAG, Washington, D.C.
U.S. National Labor Relations Board, Attorney Honors Program, Washington, D.C.
U.S. National Labor Relations Board, Division of Advice, Washington, D.C.
U.S. Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, Chief Counsel’s Employment Program for Law Graduates, Washington, D.C.

Prosecutors (5)
Bronx County District Attorney’s Office, Bronx County, NY
Nassau County District Attorney’s Office, Queens, NY
New York County District Attorney’s Office, New York, NY
Richmond County District Attorney’s Office, Staten Island, NY

Public Defenders/Death Penalty (12)
Bronx Defenders, Bronx, NY
Colorado State Public Defender, Denver, CO
Contra Costa County Public Defender, Martinez, CA
The Defender Association, Seattle, WA
Fair Trial Initiative Fellowship, Durham, NC
Georgetown University Law Center, Prettyman Fellowship, Washington, D.C.
Legal Aid Society, Criminal Defense Practice, New York, NY
Legal Aid Society, Juvenile Rights Practice, Bronx, NY
Miami-Dade Public Defender, Miami, FL
New York County Defender Services, New York, NY

Direct Services (10)
Bronx Defenders, Family Defense Project, Bronx, NY
Center for Family Representation, New York, NY
Equal Justice Works Fellowship, Immigrant Defense Project, New York, NY
Kirkland & Ellis New York City Public Service Fellowship, Make the Road New York,Brooklyn, NY
Legal Aid Society, Juvenile Rights Practice, Bronx, New York
Legal Services of Southern Piedmont, Charlotte, NC
Sinsheimer Fellowship, Partnership for Children's Rights, New York, NY
Skadden Fellowship, Advocates for Children, New York, NY
Chadbourne & Parke Fellowship, The Door Legal Services Center, New York, NY

Impact/Law Reform (17)
A Better Balance: The Work and Family Center, NYU Fellowship, New York, NY
ACLU of Nevada, Las Vegas, NV
Center for Climate Change Law Fellowship, Columbia Law School, New York, NY
Center for Collaborative Change, Newark, NJ
Center for Reproductive Rights, Legal Fellowship, New York, NY
Disability Rights Advocates, Berkeley, CA
Equal Justice Works Fellowship, New York Lawyers for the Public Interest, New York, NY
Fried Frank/MALDEF Fellowship, New York, NY
Gerald Gault Fellowship, National Juvenile Defender Center, Washington, D.C.
Karpatkin Racial Justice Fellowship, ACLU, New York, NY
Law and Social Enterprise Fellowship, New York, NY
Law Students for Reproductive Justice, Legal Fellowship, Washington, D.C.
New Mexico Appleseed, Hunger Fellowship, Albuquerque, NM
NYU School of Law, National Center on Philanthropy and the Law, Rockefeller Brothers Fund Fellowship in Nonprofit Law, Vera Institute of Justice, New York, NY
NYU School of Law Reproductive Justice and Women’s Rights Fellowship, Rural Development Institute, Seattle, WA
Rhode Island Housing & Mortgage Finance Corporation, Providence, RI
Southern Environmental Law Center, Charleston, SC

Public Interest Law Firms (1)
Scott Cole & Associates, Oakland, CA

International (6)
Arthur Helton Global Human Rights Fellowship, Bureau des Avocats Internationaux (International Lawyers Bureau), Port-au-Prince, Haiti
Arthur Helton Global Human Rights Fellowship, South Sudan Law Society, Rumbek, Sudan
Human Rights in China, Bernstein Fellowship, New York, NY
International Center for Transitional Justice, Brazil
Justice Studies Center of the Americas, Santiago, Chile
Peking University School of Transitional Law, Peking, China

quick math puts that at 70 students in PI, or 15% of our class. in 2009, we had 58 students go into PI and in 2008 we had 48 go into PI. combine the higher numbers of PI and the higher clerkship numbers that were mentioned earlier, and this puts a bit of context to the numbers.

I am not disagreeing w/ Bruce that there is certainly a difference in CC and N for big firm hiring that the numbers show, but I think that taking the numbers out of context is disingenuous.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Blindmelon » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:05 pm

KMaine wrote:
Attorney wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:Dear LULSTL,

ND: 20% NLJ SECURE
WUSTL: T19 (LOL) SECURE

:D

Can anyone help me find just one ND student not insecure about WUSTL academic rankings?


I looked for them, but they were too busy having jobs.


ZING!
Attorney wrote:Does not compute. The record-high spread this year was what, 4%? Wow!


Says the guy who thinks WUSTL places massively better than Minnesota. :roll:

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:30 pm

facetious wrote:just for the record, here is NYU's PI placement for the class of 2010.

[long list]

quick math puts that at 70 students in PI, or 15% of our class. in 2009, we had 58 students go into PI and in 2008 we had 48 go into PI. combine the higher numbers of PI and the higher clerkship numbers that were mentioned earlier, and this puts a bit of context to the numbers.

I am not disagreeing w/ Bruce that there is certainly a difference in CC and N for big firm hiring that the numbers show, but I think that taking the numbers out of context is disingenuous.

But all the numbers are taken out of context. There's no reason to think NYU is the only school with improved public interest placement, since that's where a lot of students aim after striking out at OCI.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby UnitarySpace » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:33 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
slacker wrote:Didn't everything you just show portray CCN as peers? Or am I blind? No idea how you say NYU isn't stronger than MVPB. Based on that data at least.


What are you talking about? Every one of those studies shows NYU behind CLS and Chicago (literally, in every one of them NYU places behind C and UChi). And in everyone of them at least one of MVBP (or an even lower ranked--according to US News at least-- school like NU) is ahead of NYU. For the past 2 years UVA has been ahead of them, and in the 2 previous years either NU or Penn have been ahead. And again C and UChi have never been behind NYU. The assessment scores shows NYU being behind C and C and UVA in every year. Why is TLS so obssessed with their self created idea of a "top 6", to the point where they are willing to actively ignore facts if that's what they have to do to support it?


Do you think they chose 6 because its a particularly pretty number? Mass delusion? Are NYU and CLS students lying about their eip/oci statistics?

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby rundoxierun » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:47 pm

I just want to chime in and say all this arguing about peer schools is really really dumb. In a normal year, the difference between the schools you guys are arguing about is less than 5%. You are talking about placement differences of like 10-20 students.

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:48 pm

Well, at least we can all agree that Yale is a TTT!

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Re: 2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:48 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
slacker wrote:Didn't everything you just show portray CCN as peers? Or am I blind? No idea how you say NYU isn't stronger than MVPB. Based on that data at least.


What are you talking about? Every one of those studies shows NYU behind CLS and Chicago (literally, in every one of them NYU places behind C and UChi). And in everyone of them at least one of MVBP (or an even lower ranked--according to US News at least-- school like NU) is ahead of NYU. For the past 2 years UVA has been ahead of them, and in the 2 previous years either NU or Penn have been ahead. And again C and UChi have never been behind NYU. The assessment scores shows NYU being behind C and C and UVA in every year. Why is TLS so obssessed with their self created idea of a "top 6", to the point where they are willing to actively ignore facts if that's what they have to do to support it?


Bruce, I concede that CLS and Chicago both routinely beat NYU on these metrics.

But there are a lot of metrics where NYU comes out ahead of MVPB and damn close to CC.

Here's one example: This summer I'll be at DPW. Here's the breakdown of our summer class, in relevant respects:

Columbia: 15 students

NYU: 13 students

Chicago: 3 students

Penn: 3

Michigan: 3

Berkeley: 3

Virginia: 3

(And now, self selection is not the answer: I go to one of MVPB, and DPW made far, far fewer total offers to students at my school than they had offers accepted from NYU. I would estimate NYU students received something like 6 times the number of offers from DPW as my MVPB).

The top NYC law firms have a very strong bias towards HYS + Columbia and NYU. If you know you don't want to work in NYC (and it's clear you don't) you're correct that most employers seem to view NYU as being a peer of MVPB. But by every metric available (OCI results, firm website searching, historical hiring data) HYSCCN kick ass and take names in New York city prestigious big law.

And while it may not matter to those who don't want that, NYC big law is (a) the largest source of 6-figure entry level salaries for attorneys and (b) the only place to practice certain desirable kinds of law, such as securities, banking, M&A, and other financial law.

Again, I think you have a really strong point about TLS taking things out of proportion, but you over state it a little bit. It's important to realize exactly where NYU _does_ have unique strength, as it should help appreciate why many people talk about it as being quite different from PMVB.




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