2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools Forum

[KMaine]

Dear LULSTL,

ND: 20% NLJ SECURE
WUSTL: T19 (LOL) SECURE

Can anyone help me find just one ND student not insecure about WUSTL academic rankings?

I looked for them, but they were too busy having jobs.

Does not compute. The record-high spread this year was what, 4%? Wow! 1 out of every 25 students makes all the difference, amirite? Also, this just in.. academic rankings not based on placement rankings.

You're both funny though.

When only 51 out of 269 place in NLJ - 4% (or 10 people) is a significant difference. Mostly, I am just busting your chops, though.

[flcath]

Dear LULSTL,

ND: 20% NLJ SECURE
WUSTL: T19 (LOL) SECURE

Can anyone help me find just one ND student not insecure about WUSTL academic rankings?

This is a serious Q: what are the WUSTL academic rankings?

[dpk711]

tagged

[rman1201]

This looks like the kiss of death for anyone on Cornell's WL this year.... They cant publish this kinda stuff after deposit deadlines?

[rundoxierun]

Just to show how dumb you all are being lets look at last years numbers and show the effect of random small changes. Last year stats show Chicago placed 110/207= 53.1% and NYU placed 236/471=50.1%. Clearly this means Chicago is superior for all time, right? Say randomly Chicago over-enrolled a bit again and next year for whatever reason a 2-3 of the firms that Chicago students go for take 2-3 less Chicago students than usual causing Chicago's placement to be 102/205=49.8%. That same year NYU's class was slight smaller than usual and they placed 242/465=52%.

This is what you guys are arguing about. Things that can be affected by changes this small.

[quakeroats]

Percentages of the Class of 2010 Who got a full time offer AFTER their SA - by city

NYC - 86.3
Los Angeles 78.5
Chicago -74.7
DC/NOVA- 72.8
Dallas 52
Minneapolis - 48

Here is a pdf that has a lot more cities and by region on page 11. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFallRec09.pdf

This is the reason for so much random change.

They will release info soon about this years, but it's going to be a lot better. Many firms had 100% offer rates. But then again less of them were hired in the first places.

@drylo
Addressing your first point. Well to the extent that Dallas is representative of the south. Dunno anything about that actually.

edit: actually the pdf is pretty informative. p.11 as indicated by Desert Fox

OK. I know nothing about Dallas, for one thing. I was thinking more secondary markets--Dallas and Houston are definitely major markets compared to most in the South.

Not to send this too far off topic, but I think it's useful to remember what major markets look like.

Top 20 U.S. metro areas by population size:

1 New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA MSA 19,069,796 18,323,002 +4.08% New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA MSA 12,874,797 12,365,627 +4.12% Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA
3 Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI MSA 9,580,567 9,098,316 +5.30% Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City, IL-IN-WI CSA
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX MSA 6,447,615 5,161,544 +24.92% Dallas-Fort Worth, TX CSA
5 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD MSA 5,968,252 5,687,147 +4.94% Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA
6 Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX MSA 5,867,489 4,715,407 +24.43% Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, TX CSA
7 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA 5,547,051 5,007,564 +10.77% primary census statistical area
8 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA 5,476,241 4,796,183 +14.18% Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA MSA 5,475,213 4,247,981 +28.89% Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville, GA-AL CSA
10 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH MSA 4,588,680 4,391,344 +4.49% Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH CSA
11 Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI MSA 4,403,437 4,452,557 −1.10% Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI CSA
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Glendale, AZ MSA 4,364,094 3,251,876 +34.20% primary census statistical area
13 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA MSA 4,317,853 4,123,740 +4.71% San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA CSA
14 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA 4,143,113 3,254,821 +27.29% Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA MSA 3,407,848 3,043,878 +11.96% Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia, WA CSA
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI MSA 3,269,814 2,968,806 +10.14% Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud, MN-WI CSA
17 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA 3,053,793 2,813,833 +8.53% primary census statistical area
18 St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 2,828,990 2,698,687 +4.83% St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington, MO-IL CSA
19 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL MSA 2,747,272 2,395,997 +14.66% primary census statistical area
20 Baltimore-Towson, MD MSA 2,690,886 2,552,994 +5.40% Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA

[beachbum]

Well, at least we can all agree that Yale is a TTT!

Yeah, fuck Yale.

[thesealocust]

Not to send this too far off topic, but I think it's useful to remember what major markets look like.

Legal markets are way different than population centers though. NYC hires the most SAs, and I believe DC is next - but NYC still hires like 3-4x as many. And philly is tiny. You can't just look at city population size.

It's all about where clients are.

[showNprove]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

[Attorney]

Dear LULSTL,

ND: 20% NLJ SECURE
WUSTL: T19 (LOL) SECURE

Can anyone help me find just one ND student not insecure about WUSTL academic rankings?

I looked for them, but they were too busy having jobs.

ZING!

Does not compute. The record-high spread this year was what, 4%? Wow!

Says the guy who thinks WUSTL places massively better than Minnesota.

This year's numbers, for the math-challenged 164 LSATs at BU who hate splitters for unknown reasons.

ND 23.84
WUSTL 18.96
Minnesota 11.97

23.84/18.96 = 1.257
18.96/11.97 = 1.584

Oh shit, I'm right again even with the new ITE numbers! And you are still not only obsessive about WUSTL's "golden #19" (lol) but constantly failing at math.

[09042014]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

This data isn't about placement it is about where people actually end up. An awful lot of people placed and then never got the full job offer because of the economy.

It also would surprise me if more Yale students chose to forgo big law. Because in 2009 it looked like big law careers were pretty damn hard to keep. A lot of lay offs of associates.

This data is downright useless in predicting the future.

[showNprove]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

This data isn't about placement it is about where people actually end up. An awful lot of people placed and then never got the full job offer because of the economy.

It also would surprise me if more Yale students chose to forgo big law. Because in 2009 it looked like big law careers were pretty damn hard to keep. A lot of lay offs of associates.

This data is downright useless in predicting the future.

Well, the data has a lot to do with placement, but I agree with your conclusion. Yale students have unmeasurable access to academia and the like. With biglaw down and clerkships harder to get, more students may have gone into teaching.

[flcath]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

They're traditionally in the 40% range for clerkships overall. While these may not be Article III or even federal, it's still a YLS grad holding them, and thus lowering YLS's NLJ 250 %age.

So basically if your reasoning is: well, those 15% that don't have Article III's aren't in the type of clerkship that normally feeds into Biglaw,

my response is: yeah, but unless your contending that the 43rd %tile kid at YLS (who chose a fed. mag. clerkship) is going to be passed over when he finishes for a 43rd %tile kid at Cornell, then it doesn't pan out.

Of course I guess that's exactly what you're contending... but do even you believe that? Also bear in mind that Cornell's clerkship figures resemble those of a T60.

[Other25BeforeYou]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

This data isn't about placement it is about where people actually end up. An awful lot of people placed and then never got the full job offer because of the economy.

So maybe Cornell students are just more likable? When a firm has to no-offer people, they prefer giving offers to Cornellians because we're so darn fun to be around?

But seriously, these numbers seem to imply that class of 2010 at Cornell did well at their summer jobs, not necessarily that they had more summer jobs to begin with.

[jcunni5]

Just to show how dumb you all are being lets look at last years numbers and show the effect of random small changes. Last year stats show Chicago placed 110/207= 53.1% and NYU placed 236/471=50.1%. Clearly this means Chicago is superior for all time, right? Say randomly Chicago over-enrolled a bit again and next year for whatever reason a 2-3 of the firms that Chicago students go for take 2-3 less Chicago students than usual causing Chicago's placement to be 102/205=49.8%. That same year NYU's class was slight smaller than usual and they placed 242/465=52%.

This is what you guys are arguing about. Things that can be affected by changes this small.

Last year every MVP outplaced NYU, people said this was because NYC was the hardest hit which seemed to be the cause of NYU's underperformance. The reason people are ragging on NYU is because unlike the other NYC schools NYU actually did worse and VPB outplaced it. People are just suggesting that NYU is overrated, we definitely need more data, but i think we can say that at least this year (the year of the data not presently) NYU got pwned although this is not predictive of next year or the year after that.

[quakeroats]

Not to send this too far off topic, but I think it's useful to remember what major markets look like.

Legal markets are way different than population centers though. NYC hires the most SAs, and I believe DC is next - but NYC still hires like 3-4x as many. And philly is tiny. You can't just look at city population size.

It's all about where clients are.

New York is also 3-4 times larger than D.C. in terms of population. Philadelphia is a bad example. It's growing much more slowly than Dallas/Houston/Atlanta/Miami. In 20 years Dallas is on track to be the second largest metro area in the country.

[showNprove]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

They're traditionally in the 40% range for clerkships overall. While these may not be Article III or even federal, it's still a YLS grad holding them, and thus lowering YLS's NLJ 250 %age.

So basically if your reasoning is: well, those 15% that don't have Article III's aren't in the type of clerkship that normally feeds into Biglaw,

my response is: yeah, but unless your contending that the 43rd %tile kid at YLS (who chose a fed. mag. clerkship) is going to be passed over when he finishes for a 43rd %tile kid at Cornell, then it doesn't pan out.

Of course I guess that's exactly what you're contending... but do even you believe that? Also bear in mind that Cornell's clerkship figures resemble those of a T60.

What in the world are you talking about? Cornell has very good clerkship placement.

And no, I'm not contending that. I'm simply looking at results. Don't get all bent out of shape.

[09042014]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

This data isn't about placement it is about where people actually end up. An awful lot of people placed and then never got the full job offer because of the economy.

It also would surprise me if more Yale students chose to forgo big law. Because in 2009 it looked like big law careers were pretty damn hard to keep. A lot of lay offs of associates.

This data is downright useless in predicting the future.

Well, the data has a lot to do with placement, but I agree with your conclusion. Yale students have unmeasurable access to academia and the like. With biglaw down and clerkships harder to get, more students may have gone into teaching.

At 2008 OCI all the t14 had extremely great 2L placement. Damn near everyone could get one at a t14. This data is basically who kept their jobs.

2011 data will be a better indication of how the schools actually place ITE.

[rundoxierun]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

They're traditionally in the 40% range for clerkships overall. While these may not be Article III or even federal, it's still a YLS grad holding them, and thus lowering YLS's NLJ 250 %age.

So basically if your reasoning is: well, those 15% that don't have Article III's aren't in the type of clerkship that normally feeds into Biglaw,

my response is: yeah, but unless your contending that the 43rd %tile kid at YLS (who chose a fed. mag. clerkship) is going to be passed over when he finishes for a 43rd %tile kid at Cornell, then it doesn't pan out.

Of course I guess that's exactly what you're contending... but do even you believe that? Also bear in mind that Cornell's clerkship figures resemble those of a T60.

This is what people are talking about when they say Yale's clerk placement is decreasing. No idea about how much of this is Art. III.
http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm

ETA: I dont know how usnews calculates their clerkship percentages but apparently they dont just do c/o whatever year b/c their numbers are higher than school reported numbers in some cases.

[Anonymous User]

2011 data will be a better indication of how the schools actually place ITE.

[Blindmelon]

This year's numbers, for the math-challenged 164 LSATs at BU who hate splitters for unknown reasons.

ND 23.84
WUSTL 18.96
Minnesota 11.97

23.84/18.96 = 1.257
18.96/11.97 = 1.584

Oh shit, I'm right again even with the new ITE numbers! And you are still not only obsessive about WUSTL's "golden #19" (lol) but constantly failing at math.

You get riled up so easily, its hilarious. BC places... 33.58/18.96 = 1.77 times better than WUSTL! You realize I'm only trolling you because you decided to state that WUSTL places massively better than Minnesota - a complete load of crap. USC down to Fordhamish are peers. No one cares who does or doesn't take splitters, everyone just hates people like you who try to claim superiority for silly reasons.

Also, ragging on someone because of their LSAT score.. seriously? And you wonder why WUSTL gets trolled so much?

[09042014]

Just to show how dumb you all are being lets look at last years numbers and show the effect of random small changes. Last year stats show Chicago placed 110/207= 53.1% and NYU placed 236/471=50.1%. Clearly this means Chicago is superior for all time, right? Say randomly Chicago over-enrolled a bit again and next year for whatever reason a 2-3 of the firms that Chicago students go for take 2-3 less Chicago students than usual causing Chicago's placement to be 102/205=49.8%. That same year NYU's class was slight smaller than usual and they placed 242/465=52%.

This is what you guys are arguing about. Things that can be affected by changes this small.

Last year every MVP outplaced NYU, people said this was because NYC was the hardest hit which seemed to be the cause of NYU's underperformance. The reason people are ragging on NYU is because unlike the other NYC schools NYU actually did worse and VPB outplaced it. People are just suggesting that NYU is overrated, we definitely need more data, but i think we can say that at least this year (the year of the data not presently) NYU got pwned although this is not predictive of next year or the year after that.

Leaked OCI results from class of 2011 put it better than CC by a slim margin. At least 10% above MVPDNC.

Whatever caused the gap in numbers this year, it's not loss of hiring power.

[flcath]

What are the chances that Yale placed 25% more students into Article III clerkships than Cornell for the C/O 2010? For the C/O 2008, Yale placed 25.9% better in Art. III clerkships (36.8% vs. 10.9%), but people seem to believe that Yale's clerkship numbers have slid recently.

Cornell's C/O 2010 may have actually placed better than Yale's

They're traditionally in the 40% range for clerkships overall. While these may not be Article III or even federal, it's still a YLS grad holding them, and thus lowering YLS's NLJ 250 %age.

So basically if your reasoning is: well, those 15% that don't have Article III's aren't in the type of clerkship that normally feeds into Biglaw,

my response is: yeah, but unless your contending that the 43rd %tile kid at YLS (who chose a fed. mag. clerkship) is going to be passed over when he finishes for a 43rd %tile kid at Cornell, then it doesn't pan out.

Of course I guess that's exactly what you're contending... but do even you believe that? Also bear in mind that Cornell's clerkship figures resemble those of a T60.

What in the world are you talking about? Cornell has very good clerkship placement.

And no, I'm not contending that. I'm simply looking at results. Don't get all bent out of shape.

They don't have good clerkship placement. Not that it's a big deal; 58% would be very good even if they literally sent no one federal.

[09042014]

WUSTL 2011 is going to be atrocious. Chicago firms sold out WUSTL, Illinois and Notre Dame big time.

[flcath]

2011 data will be a better indication of how the schools actually place ITE.

Until the 2011 data actually does come out (and it's fine, just like this year's).

Then the 2012 chart will be the truly telling one.