2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools Forum

[nshapkar]

Maybe, but they won't get back to pre-ITE levels.

There really aren't any absolutes. If the economy experiences a huge boom that includes a demand for legal services, you bet your ass we'll get up to pre-ITE levels. Legal outsourcing and other factors contribute to a grim job outlook, but if somebody invents the internet again tomorrow and we have a new dot com boom, it'll all change.

In the future, the effects of the recent crisis should have died down, but it's impossible to say what new catastrophes or boom times lie around the corner.

...2012.

[fatduck]

Maybe, but they won't get back to pre-ITE levels.

There really aren't any absolutes. If the economy experiences a huge boom that includes a demand for legal services, you bet your ass we'll get up to pre-ITE levels. Legal outsourcing and other factors contribute to a grim job outlook, but if somebody invents the internet again tomorrow and we have a new dot com boom, it'll all change.

In the future, the effects of the recent crisis should have died down, but it's impossible to say what new catastrophes or boom times lie around the corner.

...2012.

--ImageRemoved--

[rayiner]

So if I graduate law school in 2015 will job prospects have improved to their pre-ITE levels?

Pre-ITE was a bubble in the legal market, so probably not. Will it return to pre-bubble hiring? Almost certainly, barring another recession.

[keg411]

Clearly I was talking more about NYU (as my post implicated by referencing the "CCN" distinction created by TLS and by specifically naming NYU). In addition, there's no need to believe you in regards to NU; the nlj stats specifically show NU doing better than NYU in multiple years--and even doing better than CC in one year (not to mention that it's asinine for me to dispute information about a school that you actually attend). I was more interested in your placement "data" for NYU that shows them placing 70 percent of the class into firms through OCI. And your "data" that proves that this is more/better than what MVBP placed.

You believe the data from the other schools but you think everyone from NYU is lying? That's tinfoil-hat thinking.

And FWIW, I heard the CCN distinction before I found TLS. It was in some "How to Get Into Law School" book. Susan Estrich's, I think. CCN didn't start on TLS.

Somebody should verify this. This would settle so much.

I own the Estrich book. How the book breaks down the T14 tiers for those curious (the book is from '04):
SYH ChiColN MPVCBDNG

[UnitarySpace]

Clearly I was talking more about NYU (as my post implicated by referencing the "CCN" distinction created by TLS and by specifically naming NYU). In addition, there's no need to believe you in regards to NU; the nlj stats specifically show NU doing better than NYU in multiple years--and even doing better than CC in one year (not to mention that it's asinine for me to dispute information about a school that you actually attend). I was more interested in your placement "data" for NYU that shows them placing 70 percent of the class into firms through OCI. And your "data" that proves that this is more/better than what MVBP placed.

You believe the data from the other schools but you think everyone from NYU is lying? That's tinfoil-hat thinking.

And FWIW, I heard the CCN distinction before I found TLS. It was in some "How to Get Into Law School" book. Susan Estrich's, I think. CCN didn't start on TLS.

Somebody should verify this. This would settle so much.

I own the Estrich book. How the book breaks down the T14 tiers for those curious (the book is from '04):
SYH ChiColN MPVCBDNG

A momentous day.

[whitman]

OK, so people will probably disagree, but I think Georgetown, to a lesser extent, has lower placement at NLJ250 for the same reason that NYU does - students interested in government, policy, non-profits, etc, self-select to GTown.

[CanadianWolf]

The Estrich book refers to the Top 18 since she was, maybe still is, teaching at USC.

[FiveSermon]

The Estrich book refers to the Top 18 since she was, maybe still is, teaching at USC.

Big surprise. She starts teaching at USC and suddenly it's top 18. Guess which school is ranked 18th?

[09042014]

OK, so people will probably disagree, but I think Georgetown, to a lesser extent, has lower placement at NLJ250 for the same reason that NYU does - students interested in government, policy, non-profits, etc, self-select to GTown.

It suffers from a lack of a decent home market, and a huge a class size.

But it has better than average federal placement. For some people that trade off might be worth it. Rumors from their OCI don't really seem to indicate that it is self selection that is the problem.

[Marionberry]

OK, so people will probably disagree, but I think Georgetown, to a lesser extent, has lower placement at NLJ250 for the same reason that NYU does - students interested in government, policy, non-profits, etc, self-select to GTown.

I'm inclined to agree with this, but would add that students targeting the difficult DC market as well as the large class size contribute to DC's lackluster placement numbers. I don't think there's any evidence to indicate that hiring people or the legal community as a whole really views GULC as different from the rest of the top schools. Of course, people love to hate on GULC for whatever reasons, and they will continue to. I really have no idea, though, and unless we get a verifiable biglaw hiring person ITT, I think it will remain uncertain.

What I do think is funny about the GULC hate is that a lot of it even comes from people who are headed to lower T1s and T20s at sticker.

[fatduck]

OK, so people will probably disagree, but I think Georgetown, to a lesser extent, has lower placement at NLJ250 for the same reason that NYU does - students interested in government, policy, non-profits, etc, self-select to GTown.

It suffers from a lack of a decent home market, and a huge a class size.

But it has better than average federal placement. For some people that trade off might be worth it. Rumors from their OCI don't really seem to indicate that it is self selection that is the problem.

I have an alternate explanation. I think these numbers are, in fact, direct proof of the influence sites like TLS have on the legal hiring market.

For example, take a look at this year's list. Seems normal, right?



But what if I were to reframe the data with some simple adjustments to the school names, holding the numerical values constant?



As you can see, there is a high degree of correlation between schools struggling to place students and schools which are easily mocked using the exceedingly clever "T" -> "TTT" conversion. This confirms my long-held belief that many of the posters on this forum who claim to be 0L's and 1L's must actually be senior partners in top firms, given their extensive knowledge of every factor that affects legal hiring.

[powerlawyer06]

lol

[Marionberry]

Fatduck, I think you may be my favorite poster.

[fatduck]

I'll take the relative silence as a sign that I've blown everyone's minds.


@Marionberry: tell georgetown i'm too awesome to reject plz

[Marionberry]

I'll take the relative silence as a sign that I've blown everyone's minds.


@Marionberry: tell georgetown i'm too awesome to reject plz

Here's how this would go:

Me: Hey, GULC admissions office, you should really let my friend fatduck off of the waitlist. He's super cool, and he has a corgi flop 'tar that will blow you away.

GULC: Who do you think you are, asking us for favors? We probably shouldn't have let you in in the first place, you little shit. And don't even think about asking for aid.

[gwuorbust]

OK, so people will probably disagree, but I think Georgetown, to a lesser extent, has lower placement at NLJ250 for the same reason that NYU does - students interested in government, policy, non-profits, etc, self-select to GTown.

It suffers from a lack of a decent home market, and a huge a class size.

But it has better than average federal placement. For some people that trade off might be worth it. Rumors from their OCI don't really seem to indicate that it is self selection that is the problem.

I have an alternate explanation. I think these numbers are, in fact, direct proof of the influence sites like TLS have on the legal hiring market.

For example, take a look at this year's list. Seems normal, right?

[img]amazing1[/img]

But what if I were to reframe the data with some simple adjustments to the school names, holding the numerical values constant?

[img]amazing2[/img]

As you can see, there is a high degree of correlation between schools struggling to place students and schools which are easily mocked using the exceedingly clever "T" -> "TTT" conversion. This confirms my long-held belief that many of the posters on this forum who claim to be 0L's and 1L's must actually be senior partners in top firms, given their extensive knowledge of every factor that affects legal hiring.

nominated for best TLS post of the day.

[BruceWayne]

Clearly I was talking more about NYU (as my post implicated by referencing the "CCN" distinction created by TLS and by specifically naming NYU). In addition, there's no need to believe you in regards to NU; the nlj stats specifically show NU doing better than NYU in multiple years--and even doing better than CC in one year (not to mention that it's asinine for me to dispute information about a school that you actually attend). I was more interested in your placement "data" for NYU that shows them placing 70 percent of the class into firms through OCI. And your "data" that proves that this is more/better than what MVBP placed.

You believe the data from the other schools but you think everyone from NYU is lying? That's tinfoil-hat thinking.

And FWIW, I heard the CCN distinction before I found TLS. It was in some "How to Get Into Law School" book. Susan Estrich's, I think. CCN didn't start on TLS.

Yes, I believe people who put out a verified placement survey ever year (the national law journal) over people on an anonymous online forum. I know that seems a bit backwards from TLS logic but that's just the way I roll.

One thing that you're missing is that people aren't just randomly throwing out totally unverified placement stats for NYU, they're saying that and then combining it with the claim that they "know" that the info for NYU is better than it is for several other schools which have not released any placement info. Then, they proceed to "prove" this claim with theories about why NYU has always fallen behind CC in the nlj and why in every year at least one of MVBP and NU have out placed them. They then finish with the conclusion that the nlj placement data must "obviously" have "issues" or that it's being "misread" since NYU doesn't come out ahead of all of MVBPNU and consistently behind CC. Their trump card is that obviously NYU must place better than the rest of the schools ranked below it in US News.

[beachbum]

Fatduck, I think you may be my favorite poster.

+1, that was awesome

[Marionberry]

Fatduck, I think you may be my favorite poster.

+1, that was awesome

Fucking STTTanford.

[keg411]

The Estrich book refers to the Top 18 since she was, maybe still is, teaching at USC.

Big surprise. She starts teaching at USC and suddenly it's top 18. Guess which school is ranked 18th?

I have no idea what CandianWolf is talking about. The book directly talks about T14 (and those distinctions that I was talking about earlier end at Georgetown). Although it mostly stresses location in picking a school; especially in reference to UT and UCLA. Unless there is a newer version of the book; like I said, it's pretty old (2004). The end of the book is really the most valuable (the "how to do well in law school" part since she got a bunch of quotes from Profs and how they grade).

[Trequartista]

OK, so people will probably disagree, but I think Georgetown, to a lesser extent, has lower placement at NLJ250 for the same reason that NYU does - students interested in government, policy, non-profits, etc, self-select to GTown.

It suffers from a lack of a decent home market, and a huge a class size.

But it has better than average federal placement. For some people that trade off might be worth it. Rumors from their OCI don't really seem to indicate that it is self selection that is the problem.

I have an alternate explanation. I think these numbers are, in fact, direct proof of the influence sites like TLS have on the legal hiring market.

For example, take a look at this year's list. Seems normal, right?

[img]amazing1[/img]

But what if I were to reframe the data with some simple adjustments to the school names, holding the numerical values constant?

[img]amazing2[/img]

As you can see, there is a high degree of correlation between schools struggling to place students and schools which are easily mocked using the exceedingly clever "T" -> "TTT" conversion. This confirms my long-held belief that many of the posters on this forum who claim to be 0L's and 1L's must actually be senior partners in top firms, given their extensive knowledge of every factor that affects legal hiring.

nominated for best TLS post of the day.

+1

[Anonymous User]

If I remember correctly, NYU's EIW in 2008 occurred earlier than most other schools (that is, before the Lehman fiasco). Perhaps a higher concentration of NYU kids got no-offered because firms hadn't adjusted their standards yet to reflect ITE when they hired 'em to the previous fall.

[rundoxierun]

It suffers from a lack of a decent home market, and a huge a class size.

But it has better than average federal placement. For some people that trade off might be worth it. Rumors from their OCI don't really seem to indicate that it is self selection that is the problem.

I have an alternate explanation. I think these numbers are, in fact, direct proof of the influence sites like TLS have on the legal hiring market.

For example, take a look at this year's list. Seems normal, right?

[img]amazing1[/img]

But what if I were to reframe the data with some simple adjustments to the school names, holding the numerical values constant?

[img]amazing2[/img]

As you can see, there is a high degree of correlation between schools struggling to place students and schools which are easily mocked using the exceedingly clever "T" -> "TTT" conversion. This confirms my long-held belief that many of the posters on this forum who claim to be 0L's and 1L's must actually be senior partners in top firms, given their extensive knowledge of every factor that affects legal hiring.

nominated for best TLS post of the day.

That was, without a doubt, the best post I have ever read on TLS. On the Georgetown issue, from my small sample of recent grads I am going to side with the people saying not self-selection.

[fatduck]

You guys should quote the pictures, otherwise it kind of spoils the joke for future readers

[missinglink]

21 pages. Epic thread.

Could someone could summarize the last 20 pages or so in a line or two?

If I had to guess, it was a lot of arguing over the relative merits of each school, even if the separation isn't that great at the top of the list, and the usefulness of the data as a reliable indicator is perhaps suspect.