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Will transfer students get a class standing deal after 2L for clerkship apps?

Lawl Shcool wrote:HH =5
H = 3
P = 2

Weight for credit hours and calculate like a gpa.

Say, if you have: HH for 4 credits, H for 3 credits, and P's for 2 2-credit courses, your GPA is

(5*4 +3*3 + 2*2 +2*2) / (4+3+2+2) = 3.36

Rumor has it that GPA
> 3 = top 1/3
2.6 - 3 = middle 1/3
<2.6 = bottom 1/3.
In addition, order of the coif is usually > 3.9.

No one knows the actual cut-off.

From:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=138931

I posted this on the first page of this thread in case anybody missed it. I got it from TLS but nobody has confirmed/denied it yet...

I did a calculation for and got top 25% 1L year he had ~ 3.0. Let me verify to you guys why this is right.

First weigh grades equally to find average GPA assuming all students are equal.
.1*5= .5
+.3*3= .9
+.6*2= 1.2
= 2.6 Average GPA,

NOW you have to remember that the HHs are HIGHLY CONCENTRATED especially 1L year with your classmates who will end up transfering to go to Yale. So this means the top 15% basically gobbles up all HHs. Also there is around a third of the class i believe who only gets Ps. Meaning anything more than All Ps is probably at least top 70%. So unlike that stupid BS curve someone did (which is awfully inaccurate), I would guess anything marginally above 2.0 is out of the bottom third. With all the HHs taken by a select few, a 3.0 is a very high GPA, because everyone probably trips and gets a P somewhere. So a 3.0 has prob an HH and mostly Hs, putting you safely top 25%. You have to remember that the same people usually get the HHs, and thus the GPA you have is higher than you think. I realize I have some assumptions here that may not be right but let me make my own guess:

Top 33%= 2.7+
Middle 33%= 2.1-2.7
Bottom 33%= 2.0-2.1

I'm pretty confident in my analysis. Hope you folks enjoyed my nerding out =). Hope this becomes the new standard Boalt curve post, I'd be honored.

Also, Math nerd here again, just read the earlier posts. The NLJ numbers are useless but they are equally useless for every law school. In OCI 2008, I looked at data from our office. Some crap Biglaw firms literally offered over 50% OF THE PEOPLE WE SCREENED. The Numbers are crap and please do not use them, but they do not deceive any greater than Boalt than other schools. Next year will be the telling numbers for Biglaw. The numbers should not make Boalt look bad relative to peers, just remember all those numbers HAVE NO REFLECTION on the current market.

I like your math because it makes my grades look better. I find it hard to believe that over a 3.0 is top 25%, since that is possible with only 1 HH. I also suck at math (why I'm in law school).

Also, do multiple people really transfer to Yale every year?

Anonymous User wrote:I did a calculation for and got top 25% 1L year he had ~ 3.0. Let me verify to you guys why this is right.

First weigh grades equally to find average GPA assuming all students are equal.
.1*5= .5
+.3*3= .
+.6*2= 1.2
= 2.6 Average GPA,

NOW you have to remember that the HHs are HIGHLY CONCENTRATED especially 1L year with your classmates who will end up transfering to go to Yale. So this means the top 15% basically gobbles up all HHs. Also there is around a third of the class i believe who only gets Ps. Meaning anything more than All Ps is probably at least top 70%. So unlike that stupid BS curve someone did (which is awfully inaccurate), I would guess anything marginally above 2.0 is out of the bottom third. With all the HHs taken by a select few, a 3.0 is a very high GPA, because everyone probably trips and gets a P somewhere. So a 3.0 has prob an HH and mostly Hs, putting you safely top 25%. You have to remember that the same people usually get the HHs, and thus the GPA you have is higher than you think. I realize I have some assumptions here that may not be right but let me make my own guess:

Top 33%= 2.7+
Middle 33%= 2.1-2.7
Bottom 33%= 2.0-2.1

I'm pretty confident in my analysis. Hope you folks enjoyed my nerding out =). Hope this becomes the new standard Boalt curve post, I'd be honored.

3.3 is def top 25%, U obviously got ur HH in a 5 unit and not 4 unit class which is also important, and got another H in some class. Highest GPA with HH and two Ps is 3.1. You have to realize that you have a better GPA than a Person who Got all Hs (3.0 not tough math haha). HHs skew GPAs way high. Congrats and keep up the good work, I'm sure ur top 25%.

Also do multiple people transfer to Yale each year? I don't know. I can tell you I personally know at least 3 people who transferred to Yale (mind you this is me personally, not total). Everyone who stays at Boalt gets an auto boom to class rank, because around half of the top 10% leaves.

Anonymous User wrote:Everyone who stays at Boalt gets an auto boom to class rank, because around half of the top 10% leaves.

Is this really true? I am in the top 10% (all HH's my first semester) and I am not going to try to transfer. If anything I wondered if 2L could be more competitive because Boalt accepts far more transfers (who are probably quite good at test taking) than the number of students who leave. Or is 2L just less competitive in general because of the more flexible grade spread?

Thanks for doing these calculations, by the way.

I mean personally with your grades I would go to Yale. Some uber prestigious positions such as COA or SCOTUS judges are going for the most part (yes i know exceptions apply) only look to students from the top 3, if that.

Re: 2L year, if those are your grades this obviously does not matter for you. But for those curious I have tried much less hard and gotten significantly better grades. I would attribute this to three potential reasons.

1. People who get Biglaw stop trying completely
2. A lot of the smartest people left
3. The transfers provide a nice P cushion at the bottom of the curve.

Math nerd I like your approach; intuitively it makes sense. It aligns with what CDO estimated for my own situation after 1L. But as you say there are some assumptions that may keep it from being objectively true across the board.

As for the transfers, we did have 3 go to Y and 1 (at least) to S. Not sure of any others so I'm thinking 14-15 might be high (1/2 of top 10%) but there are certainly some. I think we lose fewer to H than we otherwise might because of the exchange program.

Finally, to the person who dismissed incoming transfers as P fodder: don't be so quick to count them out. Many of them are really smart dudes/dudettes. There are a bunch of brilliant people who end up on Dean Tom's cutting room floor for whatever reason (e.g., partied too hard freshman year and destroyed their GPA). They go off to Hastings or Davis or wherever, prove they are brilliant and then come here and do the same. They certainly have some systemic disadvantages during OCIP etc. but that's not necessarily the case in the classroom.

Edit: typos

I want to say I did not mean to degrade the transfers. Except for one transfer I know, the rest straight P'd it, granted I do not have enough info to make empirical judgments. I think what you can agree on Rotor, is that people who had success at OCIP (Transfers or not) seem to have a sizeable chunk (maybe half?) who just seem to not care, they got their job so who cares now. I wrote some pretty awful tests, one which even book awarded a class.

Another few Theories too:
1. The Grading curve is more lenient, though not by significantly much (5% more HH or H, up to the teacher).
2. 2Ls ARE DAMN BUSY. 2Ls run the school, they are the ones who run all our wonderful orgs and I can say I know many people who are way more dedicated to their organization than class.
3. 3Ls don't give a crap, though at least the 30% of 3Ls I know are graduating unemployed, so I'm sure they care. Though even then, if you graduate unemployed, networking is going to matter much more than grades for a job.

Anonymous User wrote:I mean personally with your grades I would go to Yale. Some uber prestigious positions such as COA or SCOTUS judges are going for the most part (yes i know exceptions apply) only look to students from the top 3, if that.

Yeah, I thought about transferring for a few weeks but ultimately decided against it. There are a lot of personal reasons that I want to stay in California, and I think that being in a place I love had a large impact on my ability to focus and do well. At this point I would rather stay at Boalt and try to shoot for top of the class instead of uproot my life and move to the Northeast (which I hate).

What do you mean when you say the transfers provide a "nice P cushion" at the bottom of the curve? Do you mean their first-year grades are translated as P's on the Boalt transcript? Or do you mean that students from other schools don't do well, grade-wise, once they come to Berkeley?

If anything I'd think transfers did better on average because of the work ethic it takes to get to the top of any law school class.

bilbobaggins wrote:If anything I'd think transfers did better on average because of the work ethic it takes to get to the top of any law school class.

Absolutely. I was making the same assumption, figuring that the transfers would be pretty competitive students.

I'm a transfer, I had a quick question;
For 14 credits, if I've got a split going where I'm at 7 credits of H, and 7 credits of HH (i.e. even split of Hs and HHs), is it safe to assume I'm in top 10% GPAwise, or is the equation completely different for transfers?
My grades in my first term at Boalt were; Hx3, Hx4, HHx3, HHx4

Great Job! almost certainly is top 10%

Bump for info from recent years?

Anonymous User wrote:Bump for info from recent years?

Ditto. Recent info would be greatly appreciated.

Re: the transfer's grades from 2011 just above, I had similar grades this year (not a transfer) and only am in top 25%. As a point of clarification, you can never know if you are in the top X% for a given semester, because they will only tell you results by year (and of course, per honor code, you may only use it on academic or clerkship apps). You'd also end up finding out if you are in the top 10% over the course of the entire 3 years if you get Order of the Coif.

On a related note, I did just look at MyFinAid online and saw that Boalt is giving me a grant this year. They didn't send me any notification of it, so I have no idea *why* they are giving me a grant (not that I mind, but I'm super surprised). Anyone know if this is some kind of class-wide thing or whether I can track it to grades or financial hardship or...? My financial situation has not changed really (and I didn't get a grant before) but my grades are slightly better.

0L here, but how are things looking now?

My WE is 2 years but unimpressive/will probably hurt me (entry-level, non-college-required). Looking around, other incoming 0Ls have really impressive jobs with fed agencies, litigation consulting, IP background, etc. How screwed am I going to be a year from now? Of course I'll be aiming for top 10% (LOL), but....yikes.

twinkletoes16 wrote:0L here, but how are things looking now?

My WE is 2 years but unimpressive/will probably hurt me (entry-level, non-college-required). Looking around, other incoming 0Ls have really impressive jobs with fed agencies, litigation consulting, IP background, etc. How screwed am I going to be a year from now? Of course I'll be aiming for top 10% (LOL), but....yikes.

WE/Background means absolutely nothing. Law school finals are a different beast. The people who learn to "study smart" and learn how to take a test are the people who are going to succeed. Do yourself a favor--read some of the advice on this website on how to do 1L year and go buy LEEWS and listen to it/do the exercises AT LEAST twice.

Don't buy into the hype with people's backgrounds.

Anonymous User wrote:Re: the transfer's grades from 2011 just above, I had similar grades this year (not a transfer) and only am in top 25%. As a point of clarification, you can never know if you are in the top X% for a given semester, because they will only tell you results by year (and of course, per honor code, you may only use it on academic or clerkship apps). You'd also end up finding out if you are in the top 10% over the course of the entire 3 years if you get Order of the Coif.

On a related note, I did just look at MyFinAid online and saw that Boalt is giving me a grant this year. They didn't send me any notification of it, so I have no idea *why* they are giving me a grant (not that I mind, but I'm super surprised). Anyone know if this is some kind of class-wide thing or whether I can track it to grades or financial hardship or...? My financial situation has not changed really (and I didn't get a grant before) but my grades are slightly better.

Are you saying you had an equal HH/H unit spread and were in the Top 25% and NOT the Top 10%? What class year were you?

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Re: the transfer's grades from 2011 just above, I had similar grades this year (not a transfer) and only am in top 25%. As a point of clarification, you can never know if you are in the top X% for a given semester, because they will only tell you results by year (and of course, per honor code, you may only use it on academic or clerkship apps). You'd also end up finding out if you are in the top 10% over the course of the entire 3 years if you get Order of the Coif.

On a related note, I did just look at MyFinAid online and saw that Boalt is giving me a grant this year. They didn't send me any notification of it, so I have no idea *why* they are giving me a grant (not that I mind, but I'm super surprised). Anyone know if this is some kind of class-wide thing or whether I can track it to grades or financial hardship or...? My financial situation has not changed really (and I didn't get a grant before) but my grades are slightly better.

Are you saying you had an equal HH/H unit spread and were in the Top 25% and NOT the Top 10%? What class year were you?

Not equal, but as I said, similar. I had an even spread of HH/H, but I also had 5 units of CR (for research assistant, journal, etc) so perhaps not as many graded units as people with a similar split, but that made it into the top 10. Obviously, I have no idea how close I was to top 10. I'm a rising 3L.

FWIW, 3.8 was not enough for Coif this year.

Anonymous User wrote:FWIW, 3.8 was not enough for Coif this year.

So much so me seeing this " According to the Boalt website, top 10% is generally 3.4-3.6." floating around somewhere.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Re: the transfer's grades from 2011 just above, I had similar grades this year (not a transfer) and only am in top 25%. As a point of clarification, you can never know if you are in the top X% for a given semester, because they will only tell you results by year (and of course, per honor code, you may only use it on academic or clerkship apps). You'd also end up finding out if you are in the top 10% over the course of the entire 3 years if you get Order of the Coif.

On a related note, I did just look at MyFinAid online and saw that Boalt is giving me a grant this year. They didn't send me any notification of it, so I have no idea *why* they are giving me a grant (not that I mind, but I'm super surprised). Anyone know if this is some kind of class-wide thing or whether I can track it to grades or financial hardship or...? My financial situation has not changed really (and I didn't get a grant before) but my grades are slightly better.

Are you saying you had an equal HH/H unit spread and were in the Top 25% and NOT the Top 10%? What class year were you?

Not equal, but as I said, similar. I had an even spread of HH/H, but I also had 5 units of CR (for research assistant, journal, etc) so perhaps not as many graded units as people with a similar split, but that made it into the top 10. Obviously, I have no idea how close I was to top 10. I'm a rising 3L.

But were these 1L grades or 2L grades. Don't they not tell you until February for the previous year? The reason I ask is because of the 15% HH 2L curve versus the 10% HH 1L curve.