Boalt class rank approximation thread

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby UnitarySpace » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:54 am

tell TLS to change their article on nyu then.

bigben
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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby bigben » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:39 am

BackToTheOldHouse wrote:Let's add some data to this conversation:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... OLS_REPORT

Discuss.

You're welcome :mrgreen:

Class of 2010, OCI of 2008. Great data to have, but OCI 2008 was before the economy took a real dive. It was the last OCI before hiring was slashed.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:24 pm

bigben wrote:
BackToTheOldHouse wrote:Let's add some data to this conversation:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... OLS_REPORT

Discuss.

You're welcome :mrgreen:

Class of 2010, OCI of 2008. Great data to have, but OCI 2008 was before the economy took a real dive. It was the last OCI before hiring was slashed.


Dude, the writing was more than on the wall by OCI 2008.

--LinkRemoved--)

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/ec ... /index.htm

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby bigben » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bigben wrote:
BackToTheOldHouse wrote:Let's add some data to this conversation:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... OLS_REPORT

Discuss.

You're welcome :mrgreen:

Class of 2010, OCI of 2008. Great data to have, but OCI 2008 was before the economy took a real dive. It was the last OCI before hiring was slashed.


Dude, the writing was more than on the wall by OCI 2008.

--LinkRemoved--)

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/ec ... /index.htm

Of course the writing was on the wall. In some people's minds the writing was always on the wall. But the stock market hadn't even crashed yet, and hardly anyone was reading the writing on the wall, least of all law firms. Firms were oblivious during 2008 OCI. IIRC a few firms that were slower with hiring managed to curtail their summer class when in became clear in October and November that there would be problems. Summer 2009 was the last of the big summer classes (though of course some of them were no-offered or deferred). Summer 2010 was the beginning of the drastically reduced class sizes.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby UnitarySpace » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:46 pm

nlj numbers != oci numbers. nlj reflects number of people who actually end up at firms. oci is basically a reflection of how many people want vs. how many people could get firm jobs. this is because oci happens before clerkships etc. a decent number of people who don't necessarily want biglaw do oci anyway.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Got a handful of callbacks at OCI and got pwned, applied to around 50 different government positions and around 50 firms (around 10 in person interviews), got pwned. According to our CDO about 40% of our 2Ls have no job.

I don't really feel that bad though, there are people I know in the top 10% who cannot find work. Also should be nice to take a break off to relax :D .


What do you mean by no job? No real job (paid firm work that will likely lead to full-time employment) or no job period (including unpaid summer internships with PI/gov that will likely never lead to a full-time job).

I'm reading it as the latter according to your post...Jesus.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby UnitarySpace » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:21 am

i'm guessing it's the former. the latter would be too depressing.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:22 am

UnitarySpace wrote:i'm guessing it's the former. the latter would be too depressing.


I think it's the latter, considering he mentioned getting rejected by government agencies for (unpaid) positions.

Edit: NVM, I didn't read the entire thread. Anon poster already said the 60% employed included unpaid internships, too, and that 30-40% of 2Ls had firm work.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby IzziesGal » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:58 pm

There have been lots of threads about Berkeley and biglaw, so I thought I'd post this article from Above the Law. Apparently Berkeley is in the top ten schools that send the most grads to big law. Something else to take into consideration. =)

--LinkRemoved--

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:25 pm

IzziesGal wrote:There have been lots of threads about Berkeley and biglaw, so I thought I'd post this article from Above the Law. Apparently Berkeley is in the top ten schools that send the most grads to big law. Something else to take into consideration. =)

--LinkRemoved--


I think you might have missed that this data was shared on the previous page, but thanks for reposting it.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby bilbobaggins » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:i'm guessing it's the former. the latter would be too depressing.


I think it's the latter, considering he mentioned getting rejected by government agencies for (unpaid) positions.

Edit: NVM, I didn't read the entire thread. Anon poster already said the 60% employed included unpaid internships, too, and that 30-40% of 2Ls had firm work.


And still, none of these numbers are anything other than guesses.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby IzziesGal » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
IzziesGal wrote:There have been lots of threads about Berkeley and biglaw, so I thought I'd post this article from Above the Law. Apparently Berkeley is in the top ten schools that send the most grads to big law. Something else to take into consideration. =)

--LinkRemoved--


I think you might have missed that this data was shared on the previous page, but thanks for reposting it.


Ha. I suck. But nonetheless, it's good news. :D

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:20 pm

So, back to this thread's original Q: "rank" or not (call it what you will), does anyone know what grades are generally (ballpark) required to make the Top 10% and Top 25% distinctions that are still given at the end of 1L and 2L year?

It's true that no one discusses grades at school. That's why I want to discuss them here; for those who really want to clerk, it's important to have an idea. CDO won't disclose until after your first two years, I think.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby IzziesGal » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:34 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:So, back to this thread's original Q: "rank" or not (call it what you will), does anyone know what grades are generally (ballpark) required to make the Top 10% and Top 25% distinctions that are still given at the end of 1L and 2L year?

It's true that no one discusses grades at school. That's why I want to discuss them here; for those who really want to clerk, it's important to have an idea. CDO won't disclose until after your first two years, I think.


Honestly, just shoot for more HHs and Hs than Ps + law review. That seems to be the general formula for obtaining a clerkship. That and being geographically flexible. The 3Ls and recent grads I know with clerkships were either a) at the top of their game in super competitive markets like 9th Circuit/ND Cal and 2nd Circuit/SDNY OR b) were a little above average + law review + willing to go anywhere in the country to clerk for a federal judge for a year.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:27 pm

One of my profs told me that CLR membership/non-membership meant very little for clerkship apps if you didn't have at least top 25% on your transcript. The way he worded it, he's recommended several students over several years for clerkships, both D. Ct. and CoA, but the only ones who've ever gotten 'em were people with at minimum the top 25% distinction.

He said they were usually kids who essentially had mostly Hs and a few HHs, and very few Ps.
Not sure that means anything for purposes of discussion here, but I'd say that you should shoot for at least the top 25% deal, for which I'm guessing you need something better than an H average.

If I had to just guess as to what top 10% is, I'd say its like 60% Hs and 40% HHs.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:29 pm

I find it embarassing that my classmates are touting NLJ numbers to show our firm placement. That is from OCI 2008 before the crash, when anyone who wanted to get Biglaw was able to do it.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby IzziesGal » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I find it embarassing that my classmates are touting NLJ numbers to show our firm placement. That is from OCI 2008 before the crash, when anyone who wanted to get Biglaw was able to do it.


The link I posted was for 2010 data. Not sure what you're referring to. This is recent information.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Lawl Shcool » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:04 pm

IzziesGal wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I find it embarassing that my classmates are touting NLJ numbers to show our firm placement. That is from OCI 2008 before the crash, when anyone who wanted to get Biglaw was able to do it.


The link I posted was for 2010 data. Not sure what you're referring to. This is recent information.


I think what he is trying to say is this:

The data reflects 2010 hires. The 2010 hires would have done 2L OCI in 2008.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby AnonymousBoaltie » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:25 pm

2L here.

Boalt is pretty bad atm if you're not an academic all-star or have some other pull IMHO.

I didn't do well 1L year and had no prior w/e so I wasn't expecting much. I know people who did way better than me, though (so like top half), who struck out at OCI. They've mostly landed something by now.

I haven't yet but am hoping to land something in PI for the summer.

It's pretty grim though.

I honestly have considered dropping out a few times, and feel as though attending Boalt at this point in time was probably one of the worst decisions I've made (not saying it is a bad school in general -- just saying I should not have gone). I'm not optimistic about a legal career at this point with my grades (which put me out of the running for firm jobs, clerkships, gov jobs, etc), but what keeps me going is that dropping out would look really bad to prospective employers in the field I'm looking at post-grad (basically policy stuff. Stuff I coulda probably worked my way into straight out of undergrad with a little hustle and an internship)

Anyways top 25% strike-out sounds a little unrealistic even to me but top half strike-out would have sounded unrealistic to me if I didn't know people it'd happened to. I know people who did great of course, but they were rock-stars with top grades or W/E or some tech-related degree or other draw. I'm not saying this applies to everyone at Boalt -- this is anecdotes of course.

Anyways people should know what the realistic spectrum of possibilities are. I think it is funny when all negative stories are dismissed as anti-Boalt trolling. I suspect there may be some of that going on from the autoadmit crowd, but there are people legitimately struggling, and i find it very dismissive when people just hand-wave it off because they themselves are doing well (this isn't directed at anyone in particular btw. just a general comment about stuff i find annoying)

anyways just wanted to share my two cents.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby thesealocust » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:40 pm

Lawl Shcool wrote:
IzziesGal wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I find it embarassing that my classmates are touting NLJ numbers to show our firm placement. That is from OCI 2008 before the crash, when anyone who wanted to get Biglaw was able to do it.


The link I posted was for 2010 data. Not sure what you're referring to. This is recent information.


I think what he is trying to say is this:

The data reflects 2010 hires. The 2010 hires would have done 2L OCI in 2008.


+1

It's actually old and nearly useless information. The data is firm placement for students that were members of the graduating class of 2010. The graduating class spent summer 2009 working for their firms, and interviewed for them in fall 2008. Fall 2008 may have actually been the best hiring season ever - then the crash happened - then a lot of people working at firms summer 2009 failed to receive permanent offers.

But the actual RECRUITING in fall 2008 was on fire. For comparison's sake, the average student with below a 2.9 GPA at NYU received 2 biglaw offers from OCI 2008. Below a 2.9 would mean substantially worse than bottom 10% of the class.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby powerlawyer06 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:36 pm

AnonymousBoaltie wrote:2L here.

Boalt is pretty bad atm if you're not an academic all-star or have some other pull IMHO.

I didn't do well 1L year and had no prior w/e so I wasn't expecting much. I know people who did way better than me, though (so like top half), who struck out at OCI. They've mostly landed something by now.

I haven't yet but am hoping to land something in PI for the summer.

It's pretty grim though.

I honestly have considered dropping out a few times, and feel as though attending Boalt at this point in time was probably one of the worst decisions I've made (not saying it is a bad school in general -- just saying I should not have gone). I'm not optimistic about a legal career at this point with my grades (which put me out of the running for firm jobs, clerkships, gov jobs, etc), but what keeps me going is that dropping out would look really bad to prospective employers in the field I'm looking at post-grad (basically policy stuff. Stuff I coulda probably worked my way into straight out of undergrad with a little hustle and an internship)

Anyways top 25% strike-out sounds a little unrealistic even to me but top half strike-out would have sounded unrealistic to me if I didn't know people it'd happened to. I know people who did great of course, but they were rock-stars with top grades or W/E or some tech-related degree or other draw. I'm not saying this applies to everyone at Boalt -- this is anecdotes of course.

Anyways people should know what the realistic spectrum of possibilities are. I think it is funny when all negative stories are dismissed as anti-Boalt trolling. I suspect there may be some of that going on from the autoadmit crowd, but there are people legitimately struggling, and i find it very dismissive when people just hand-wave it off because they themselves are doing well (this isn't directed at anyone in particular btw. just a general comment about stuff i find annoying)

anyways just wanted to share my two cents.


Thank you for your honesty and candor. If you don’t mind can I ask you some follow up questions:

What type of grades did you have as a 1l? I assume bottom half means all P’s or mostly P’s.

What type of W/E do you see as helping students land jobs at OCI the most?

Does the consensus seem to be that the OCI offer rate is better or worse than the previous year? (TLS seems to think last year’s was worst ever)

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby AnonymousBoaltie » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:09 pm

Thank you for your honesty and candor. If you don’t mind can I ask you some follow up questions:

What type of grades did you have as a 1l? I assume bottom half means all P’s or mostly P’s.

What type of W/E do you see as helping students land jobs at OCI the most?

Does the consensus seem to be that the OCI offer rate is better or worse than the previous year? (TLS seems to think last year’s was worst ever)


One H as a 1L, rest P's.

I don't have much of a sense of what W/E helps most, just that the people without any meaningful W/E seemed to have gotten hammered the hardest.
On a somewhat related note I can say for sure that having anything in your educational background which qualifies you for the patent bar is a biiiiig help as far as I can tell (well, assuming you want to do IP).
So you know, the standard saw basically: soft-undergrad-major / no-work-experience / mediocre-grades types basically got crushed.

My general impression is that this year's OCI was "roughly as bad" but I don't have hard numbers to back that up obviously (wouldn't that be nice?)

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Rotor » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:58 am

thesealocust wrote:It's actually old and nearly useless information. The data is firm placement for students that were members of the graduating class of 2010. The graduating class spent summer 2009 working for their firms, and interviewed for them in fall 2008. Fall 2008 may have actually been the best hiring season ever - then the crash happened - then a lot of people working at firms summer 2009 failed to receive permanent offers.

But the actual RECRUITING in fall 2008 was on fire. For comparison's sake, the average student with below a 2.9 GPA at NYU received 2 biglaw offers from OCI 2008. Below a 2.9 would mean substantially worse than bottom 10% of the class.

I think "nearly useless" is the key-- especially if you're trying to estimate current trends.

However, because it reports employment stats and not OCI stats, I think some of the "ITE" is factored in from the massive no-offers that 2010 had to suffer through, so it's not completely useless.

Where I do think it is more helpful is to look at the number relative to our peers for that particular year. I don't have ready access to the other years' data and we always seem to be in/near the top 10. So, as a counter-point to all the "zOMG don't go to BOALTTT because no one goes BigLaw out of there" it is useful. (But that's about it.) Considering how bad 2010 had it, I was surprised it was nearly 50%.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby worldtraveler » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:44 am

Rotor wrote:
thesealocust wrote:It's actually old and nearly useless information. The data is firm placement for students that were members of the graduating class of 2010. The graduating class spent summer 2009 working for their firms, and interviewed for them in fall 2008. Fall 2008 may have actually been the best hiring season ever - then the crash happened - then a lot of people working at firms summer 2009 failed to receive permanent offers.

But the actual RECRUITING in fall 2008 was on fire. For comparison's sake, the average student with below a 2.9 GPA at NYU received 2 biglaw offers from OCI 2008. Below a 2.9 would mean substantially worse than bottom 10% of the class.

I think "nearly useless" is the key-- especially if you're trying to estimate current trends.

However, because it reports employment stats and not OCI stats, I think some of the "ITE" is factored in from the massive no-offers that 2010 had to suffer through, so it's not completely useless.

Where I do think it is more helpful is to look at the number relative to our peers for that particular year. I don't have ready access to the other years' data and we always seem to be in/near the top 10. So, as a counter-point to all the "zOMG don't go to BOALTTT because no one goes BigLaw out of there" it is useful. (But that's about it.) Considering how bad 2010 had it, I was surprised it was nearly 50%.


Even if it is a different climate, it's some of the most recent data out there. We're in fairly uncharted territory, and nothing is going to be completely accurate. It's better than nothing.

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Re: Boalt class rank approximation thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:06 pm

If I had to just guess as to what top 10% is, I'd say its like 60% Hs and 40% HHs.


Sounds about right. I know a current 2L whose 1L grades consisted of 2 HH's and 4 H's. He is now top 10%.




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