Boalt class rank approximation thread Forum

[BackToTheOldHouse]

Got a handful of callbacks at OCI and got pwned, applied to around 50 different government positions and around 50 firms (around 10 in person interviews), got pwned. According to our CDO about 40% of our 2Ls have no job.

I don't really feel that bad though, there are people I know in the top 10% who cannot find work. Also should be nice to take a break off to relax .

is this a joke? 40%........

I hope so, but I fear not. Any more Boalties out there that can chime in?

[powerlawyer06]

Grades also are not everything at our school. I'm 2L in the top 25% and I will be chilling at my parents house while I'm unemployed this summer. Thank goodness I have parents who are willing to help me out.

Okay this sounds completely fake but I will indulge your anonymous trolling only to assuage the fears of the other potential Boalt students in this thread...

How do you know your rank and the rank of those in the top ten if Boalt has no published rankings?

Do you have any prior w/e?

What were your exact grades (P,H,HH)? Revealing this should not be an issue if you are still anonymous.

Are you an identifiable URM?

Were your OCI interviews the first interviews you have ever had? (in your entire life)

I feel like "chilling at your parent’s house" is an awful idea for your second summer. You need to go look harder for something, anything in the legal field. If you are real (which I still think you are not) then you seem like you have given up on your summer employment search way too easily.

[Rotor]

This system seems pretty odd. Why be so secretive about the distinctions if firms will see your grades anyway? I'm guessing most/all firms doing OCI will be familiar with Berkeley's grading system and figure out a way to determine relative class ranking anyway, no?

One last question--do profs give actual letter/numerical grades that then just get turned into HH's, H's, P's? If so, then ranking could still theoretically be done if administration ever decided to change this system. If not, then profs probably really like this system as it allows them to (easily) determine the top 25% then just give everyone else P's.

1. "This has played an important role in contributing to the collaborative culture of this academic community. Your respect for this practice will help to maintain this collaborative culture." Academic Rule 3.07A, available at http://law.berkeley.edu/184.htm
2. Yes, firms coming to Boalt will have an idea of where people shake out. But, it keeps them from arbitrarily picking a number like "top 25% only" and excluding Mr./Ms. 25.1%.
3. Profs make the HH/H/P determination. That is all they report to the registrar (apart from AMJUR (top in class) and best brief, etc.)
4. The top 25% designation is only for the distinction category. HH/H combined for 1L year must be <=40%, with HH <=10%. The rest get Ps (or lower).

Also, WRT the 40% jobless estimate: I haven't heard any numbers from the CDO, but 40% unemployed doesn't jive with the experience of those I know. I do know a few folks who struck out at OCI, but they have since found paid work. And the estimate may have been before the PI/PS hiring started in earnest.

[Anonymous User]

How do you know your rank and the rank of those in the top ten if Boalt has no published rankings?

They have the distinctions, see above.

Do you have any prior w/e?

No, and that certainly was an issue, I'm not going to b/s you here.

What were your exact grades (P,H,HH)? Revealing this should not be an issue if you are still anonymous.

Because I have discussed with a few people this could still out me. Lets say mostly Hs, With an even split in HHs and Ps

Are you an identifiable URM?

No

Were your OCI interviews the first interviews you have ever had? (in your entire life)

No I would guess i did around 100 or so interviews for college internships. My interviewers even wrote personalized comments on how great my interview skills were, there just are barely any spots in the legal market.

Also RE: OCI 40% number, this is direct from the office, not my own estimate, and I too feel the number is lower. Honestly though, its humiliating to reveal that you can't even find work this summer and will likely not be able to even practice law when you graduate. That is the reason that the 60% employed number might not jibe with what the buzz is, it really sucks.

[Rotor]

Hey Anon., I didn't mean to rub salt into the wound. I am not doubting that's what CDO you-- I just wanted to express my doubt at their number. As far as I know they haven't done another survey since the quicklook post OCI.

I'm sorry for your situation. And anyone doubting you worked hard enough to make it happen is just rude.

[powerlawyer06]

Sorry I was not trying to be rude. I was only trying to root out the trolls and anti-Berkeley TLS users that constantly post negative or misleading information on Boalt.

Anon - If you are being honest then I am genuinely worried about my future. Did you limit your search to one geographic area?

[Anonymous User]

Anon here. 40% comes from a couple of months ago so perhaps it has gone up, and no I'm really not insulted by questioning the number, Rotor. I focused on 4 different markets if that helps. If I cannot get a job out of school, I have some other ideas of potential careers I can pursue which would probably fulfill me better (like high school teacher). There are a couple groups of people who for some reason have done really badly with jobs. Transfers have been hit immensely hard, I would guess only 1/3 transfers I know has a job. Also randomly, I know Hispanic students for whatever reason did not have a good placement at OCI, apparently Hispanics did not get a bump like African-Americans for URM status. I think people who are successful and motivated tend to hang out with like minded people which also contributes to why it seems like things at Boalt seem fantastic, I would say my friends are a 50/50 split on jobs, with really no rhyme or reason to why some have them. This is turning into a wall of text.

New Paragraph, anyways I realize it sounds like a pity party or that I'm some anti-Boalt troll, but I've absolutely loved my experience here. Even if I end up jobless, the same thing was going to happen out of undergrad, so its no biggie. I wrote what I did for people who are going to plop down now over 200k in debt who think that academic success at Boalt along with a vigorous job search will guarantee a job, but in this market it does not. Most positions you apply for have literally hundreds of candidates, and it is literally awesome to even get an in person interview. Out of the accomplished people in in person interviews around 10-20% of those interviewed actually get some offer. With all the outstanding candidates you need luck as well. Even if you finish with fine grades at Boalt, you will need some luck to not be unemployed.

[worldtraveler]

Anon here. 40% comes from a couple of months ago so perhaps it has gone up, and no I'm really not insulted by questioning the number, Rotor. I focused on 4 different markets if that helps. If I cannot get a job out of school, I have some other ideas of potential careers I can pursue which would probably fulfill me better (like high school teacher). There are a couple groups of people who for some reason have done really badly with jobs. Transfers have been hit immensely hard, I would guess only 1/3 transfers I know has a job. Also randomly, I know Hispanic students for whatever reason did not have a good placement at OCI, apparently Hispanics did not get a bump like African-Americans for URM status. I think people who are successful and motivated tend to hang out with like minded people which also contributes to why it seems like things at Boalt seem fantastic, I would say my friends are a 50/50 split on jobs, with really no rhyme or reason to why some have them. This is turning into a wall of text.

New Paragraph, anyways I realize it sounds like a pity party or that I'm some anti-Boalt troll, but I've absolutely loved my experience here. Even if I end up jobless, the same thing was going to happen out of undergrad, so its no biggie. I wrote what I did for people who are going to plop down now over 200k in debt who think that academic success at Boalt along with a vigorous job search will guarantee a job, but in this market it does not. Most positions you apply for have literally hundreds of candidates, and it is literally awesome to even get an in person interview. Out of the accomplished people in in person interviews around 10-20% of those interviewed actually get some offer. With all the outstanding candidates you need luck as well. Even if you finish with fine grades at Boalt, you will need some luck to not be unemployed.

I'm fairly skeptical of that 40% number? How does the CDO have a total count of who has a job and who doesn't? If you get your job through other avenues than OCI, they probably don't know or at least don't know it yet. I have a job and haven't told the CDO. I can't imagine I'm the only one.

[bigben]

@TheFriendlyBarber: All Berk students know what the individual grades mean. I think the purpose of this thread is rather to estimate what sort of transcript is required for certain class ranks.

I think that was for the benefit of the reader.

[UnitarySpace]

The 40% statistic is useful as a comparison to other schools' oci data. I assume that's what's relevant for 0Ls who are shopping around for schools.

[bigben]

The 40% statistic is useful as a comparison to other schools' oci data. I assume that's what's relevant for 0Ls who are shopping around for schools.

Sort of, but not really. You have no idea what kind of jobs the 60% took. How many people took 1L summer type jobs that aren't connected with any chance of a permanent position? How many took private sector or firm jobs that aren't as good as you might hope? etc.

[Anonymous User]

For OCI solely I believe the CDO said either 30 or 40% employed, it was a bloodbath.

[Anonymous User]

Also to add to prospectives: my honest guess would be around 40% Biglaw. This means approx 60% of the class is in a position where they will be unable to pay off their debts for at least 10 years. I was told by the career office that I can expect to make 15-20 an hour in the private sector if not in Biglaw. Also because the private sector is so clogged, the amount of people on LRAP is growing rapidly, and people like me who had no intention of government work will be taking some of the money. At the rate of people going on the program, the program is probably not sustainable into the future, and thus pub interest people will probably have to move to IBR, when the funds are depleted. Once again, still do not regret my decision even though I, like half of my classmates, will be in debt for the next 10-25 years.

[worldtraveler]

Also to add to prospectives: my honest guess would be around 40% Biglaw. This means approx 60% of the class is in a position where they will be unable to pay off their debts for at least 10 years. I was told by the career office that I can expect to make 15-20 an hour in the private sector if not in Biglaw. Also because the private sector is so clogged, the amount of people on LRAP is growing rapidly, and people like me who had no intention of government work will be taking some of the money. At the rate of people going on the program, the program is probably not sustainable into the future, and thus pub interest people will probably have to move to IBR, when the funds are depleted. Once again, still do not regret my decision even though I, like half of my classmates, will be in debt for the next 10-25 years.

Completely false. Berkeley's LRAP is merged with the federal IBR. In order to be eligible for the new version you have to sign up for the federal public version, which puts you on reduced payments for 10 years and then forgives the balance. This means Berkeley actually doesn't pay a lot of money as they are just making the reduced payments for you. They are not paying off your full loan balance.

Also, Berkeley knows it has a lot of students wanting to go into public service. It's not like it's news to them that lots of people are going to need it. One of the biggest reasons for the tuition increase was to fund the LRAP. Like I said before, they don't pay back your full loans but when you go there they fully benefit from the higher tuition dollars. Also, under the federal system, your payment is the same whether you pay 100k or 300k to go to Berkeley. Therefore, this huge tuition increase really benefits them and the LRAP is in pretty good financial shape. They're getting way more tuition money and paying the same in LRAP benefits. If the feds run out of money, then we would have a problem.

Last year they even expanded the LRAP for recent grads who wanted to do certain solo work or design their own projects to cover people who couldn't find jobs.

[UnitarySpace]

I think the number of people that end up going into public service is always way overstated. I wouldn't mind being proved wrong about berkeley, but "powerhouse" public interest oriented law schools like NYU hovers around 10% (including gov).

[clone22]

So is this indicative of the legal market as a whole, or is Boalt having a particularly hard time finding work for their students?

[UnitarySpace]

The 40% statistic is useful as a comparison to other schools' oci data. I assume that's what's relevant for 0Ls who are shopping around for schools.

Sort of, but not really. You have no idea what kind of jobs the 60% took. How many people took 1L summer type jobs that aren't connected with any chance of a permanent position? How many took private sector or firm jobs that aren't as good as you might hope? etc.

what? There's no reason to suspect that the effects that you mentioned wouldn't be present in peer schools.

[Anonymous User]

OCI seemed to be feast or famine - I know very few people who had 1 or 2 offers. It was usually either a bunch of offers or none. And it sure seemed employers did care about grades, but they were far from everything.

I would be VERY careful following the CDO's advice. I had abysmal grades - easily bottom third, if you know what that means. CDO told me not to do OCI. I had 8 biglaw offers. I credit my technical background and work experience to a large extent.

[UnitarySpace]

OCI seemed to be feast or famine - I know very few people who had 1 or 2 offers. It was usually either a bunch of offers or none. And it sure seemed employers did care about grades, but they were far from everything.

I would be VERY careful following the CDO's advice. I had abysmal grades - easily bottom third, if you know what that means. CDO told me not to do OCI. I had 8 biglaw offers. I credit my technical background and work experience to a large extent.

****. that's baller

[bilbobaggins]

That statistic is complete bullshit.

How is the CDO even aware of who has jobs? I've never spoken with them and I have a job lined up. I'm fairly certain my summer employer hasn't reported anything to them. They may have tried to estimate or it may just be a load of bullshit, but the number is not based on any actual data. This is how rumors get started.

I'm sorry to hear you got blanked for this summer. I certainly know students around median (assuming a few Hs is median) who got summer positions at great firms. I also know a ton of PI people who already have 2L positions lined up.

As for the grades- No one knows this shit because people at Boalt just don't talk about grades. This is a good thing Let's try and keep it that way.

If you're in the top 25% and you claim to have great interviewing skills and you still got blanked, well, to be quite honest, something doesn't quite add up. The fact that you think you cannot get a PI position while there's still a lot of time left also makes me confused. Most of the people I know who wanted PI jobs got them in the offices where they wanted to work.

[UnitarySpace]

how many people want to do pi at boalt? i can't seem to get a number from teh internetz

[powerlawyer06]

That statistic is complete bullshit.

How is the CDO even aware of who has jobs? I've never spoken with them and I have a job lined up. I'm fairly certain my summer employer hasn't reported anything to them. They may have tried to estimate or it may just be a load of bullshit, but the number is not based on any actual data. This is how rumors get started.

I'm sorry to hear you got blanked for this summer. I certainly know students around median (assuming a few Hs is median) who got summer positions at great firms. I also know a ton of PI people who already have 2L positions lined up.

As for the grades- No one knows this shit because people at Boalt just don't talk about grades. This is a good thing Let's try and keep it that way.

If you're in the top 25% and you claim to have great interviewing skills and you still got blanked, well, to be quite honest, something doesn't quite add up. The fact that you think you cannot get a PI position while there's still a lot of time left also makes me confused. Most of the people I know who wanted PI jobs got them in the offices where they wanted to work.

Thank you for saying this Bilbo. As a 0L it makes me feel alot better to know that not everyone at Boalt is jobless. Something just doesn't add up about that anonymous poster. Not really the fact that he did not get a job at OCI, but mostly because he just gave up and decided to "chill at his parents house". And then he made a comment about possibly teaching high school. I am not saying he is fake but if I were trying to anonymously post negative things about Boalt I would sound alot like him.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

Let's add some data to this conversation:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... OLS_REPORT

Discuss.

You're welcome

[clone22]

Thank you for saying this Bilbo. As a 0L it makes me feel alot better to know that not everyone at Boalt is jobless. Something just doesn't add up about that anonymous poster. Not really the fact that he did not get a job at OCI, but mostly because he just gave up and decided to "chill at his parents house". And then he made a comment about possibly teaching high school. I am not saying he is fake but if I were trying to anonymously post negative things about Boalt I would sound alot like him.

True. Wouldn't one at least be doing volunteering/non paid clinical work in the summer even if one had absolutely no luck getting paid employment after 2L?

[Rotor]

I think the number of people that end up going into public service is always way overstated. I wouldn't mind being proved wrong about berkeley, but "powerhouse" public interest oriented law schools like NYU hovers around 10% (including gov).

Really? I think I could name 30 classmates (10%) going non-profit/pub. defender/gov't and I wouldn't say I'm super connected.