Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

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ShakeDemHatersOff
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby ShakeDemHatersOff » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:56 pm

Tanicius wrote:God this thread is depressing.


not if you've won the biglaw lottery

I'm just laughing to the bank

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prezidentv8
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:57 pm

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:Outside of the top 5 law schools, I think anyone who goes somewhere they aren't getting a full ride is stupid ITE.

People who go to these garbage schools need to understand that they have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job.


Well I guess I'm stupid and have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job even though I was BORN and BRED for SUCCESS and ACHIEVEMENT.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:05 pm

Tanicius wrote:
A'nold wrote:
porgie wrote:
Tanicius wrote:God this thread is depressing.


It's not nearly as depressing as it could be. No one who took on sticker debt and has no job prospects has posted, yet, and for good reason. Every time one of them posts, a bunch of 0Ls call the person a troll, tell the person to post on JDU, and then begin to critique everything they think the person did wrong. I'm sure there are some 2/3Ls who have jeopardized their job search in one way or another, but there are many students who don't fall into this category and still get shouted down by 0Ls. I understand why they do it. It's easier to rationalize away your fears by telling yourself that the person posting screwed up somehow in a way that was within their control. The employment forum would be a much more useful place if 0Ls didn't act this way.

TINOTTR.

There are MANY JDU trolls that post on this board and their doomsday message is way over the top, especially when most of them come from lower ranked schools and they expected a lavish NYC biglaw to land in their laps.

I have as much debt as a sticker-paying private school JD due to UG debt and I am currently jobless, so I match the type of poster you said hasn't posted in this thread. I actually think this site is too pessimistic and way too ready to believe they hype it hears.

That said, the economy IS horrible and people really are struggling. The JDU type posters are the ones like the dude that posted earlier to not go to ls unless you can go HYS or Hamilton at Columbia. They tell you you should have been a plumber. These are not the types we should be listening to. Also notice that their post counts are low and that their date of registration is new. I always listen to those that are real poster with a post history on this site. People hear what they want to hear and those that yell at us who tell the trolls to go away want to hear that their lives are over.


A'nold, if you don't mind me asking, what is your plan for making it in this economy with that much debt? Are you concerned that this debt will affect your ability to purchase a house, raise kids, etc?


Believe it or not, I'm actually in a better position than I was b/f I started ls. At least I know have a career path. I grew up very poor and had to live entirely off of loans to get through UG. I wanted to go to college b/c I had spent a few years working crap jobs like retail and warehouse positions. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do I guess.

I hope to either use IBR's 10 year forgiveness plan because I have all federal loans (no private) or get a good paying firm job (which would be lucky at this point but not far-fetched as I have top grades and go to the best school in a like 5 state radius.

After about 10 years or so I hope I can look back and see a debt-free and great future that my parents, parent's parent's, etc. never could have dreamed of. When I say poverty, I mean that well over half of my relatives are on welfare and live in one bedroom apartments or trailers at middle age. Some of the kids have to get their clothes from charitable entities or from lower-middle class relatives. Anyway, that's where I am in this whole thing.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:07 pm

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:
A'nold wrote:See, what's hard for me is that I have top 5% type grades and I can't help but to keep it in the back of my head that this should mean SOMETHING post-graduation. Reality seems to tell a different story though.

I'm thinking that I should really start to focus on some area of the law and really work my butt off to show employers that this is what I want to do. As it is right now I must appear like a jack of all trades. I know this is not the magic answer, but I think I need to get my butt into gear here, as I'm only about a year and a quarter away from being out in the real world.


:lol:

no one cares about what grades you make if you go to a non-elite law school...........the world is messed up but people just gotta face the music

In one sense I'm empathetic toward people struggling right now but in another, people who go into law school without having done the research sorta deserve what they get. Just like all the dumb undergrads who think they can get a job with a history major from a state school.

Outside of the top 5 law schools, I think anyone who goes somewhere they aren't getting a full ride is stupid ITE.

People who go to these garbage schools need to understand that they have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job.


See, but that one poster earlier would have me begging you for more of your wisdom instead of calling you a troll.......nah.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:11 pm

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:
A'nold wrote:See, what's hard for me is that I have top 5% type grades and I can't help but to keep it in the back of my head that this should mean SOMETHING post-graduation. Reality seems to tell a different story though.

I'm thinking that I should really start to focus on some area of the law and really work my butt off to show employers that this is what I want to do. As it is right now I must appear like a jack of all trades. I know this is not the magic answer, but I think I need to get my butt into gear here, as I'm only about a year and a quarter away from being out in the real world.


:lol:

no one cares about what grades you make if you go to a non-elite law school...........the world is messed up but people just gotta face the music

In one sense I'm empathetic toward people struggling right now but in another, people who go into law school without having done the research sorta deserve what they get. Just like all the dumb undergrads who think they can get a job with a history major from a state school.

Outside of the top 5 law schools, I think anyone who goes somewhere they aren't getting a full ride is stupid ITE.

People who go to these garbage schools need to understand that they have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job.


sorry about disregarding the OP's wishes for the thread, but....YOU'RE FUCKING RETARDED. TROLL ON SOMEWHERE ELSE DOUCHE

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tanicius wrote:God this thread is depressing.


not if you've won the biglaw lottery

I'm just laughing to the bank


this illustrates the perfect way to use the Anonymous Post function

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:22 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Tanicius wrote:God this thread is depressing.


not if you've won the biglaw lottery

I'm just laughing to the bank


this illustrates the perfect way to use the Anonymous Post function

LOL. I love Paulina.

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JazzOne
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby JazzOne » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tanicius wrote:God this thread is depressing.


not if you've won the biglaw lottery

I'm just laughing to the bank

I don't know a single person who got a biglaw job ITE who wasn't humbled by the experience. This poster does not have a biglaw job.

Mods, how about an outing?

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Unemployed
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Unemployed » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:36 pm

JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Tanicius wrote:God this thread is depressing.


not if you've won the biglaw lottery

I'm just laughing to the bank

I don't know a single person who got a biglaw job ITE who wasn't humbled by the experience. This poster does not have a biglaw job.

Mods, how about an outing?


TBF, I know plenty of people at my school who weren't humbled by the experience. Obviously most of them knew better than to broadcast their confidence in an asinine manner (both before and after the process), but OCI went exactly as their grades predicted.

Anonymous User
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:54 pm

I am a fairly recent grad of a school that is ranked 80-100. Many of my classmates are still looking for work. I'd say at best maybe 50% have work. With that said, I love my job. I work at a large firm in their corporate department (my dream job when entering law school). I love the people I work with, and really couldn't be happier. It's a mixed bag though. Plenty of people with better grades, and better prior work experience struck out and are still looking, or landed something they can live with, but aren't really that excited about. In an economy this bad, you need some luck on top of credentials and personality.

All that said, I think for some people law school is a great decision. Most careers require some risk. For people thinking about applying to law school, my biggest recommendation is to weigh other career choices carefully, get some work experience, and get a real understanding of what lawyers do.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I am a fairly recent grad of a school that is ranked 80-100. Many of my classmates are still looking for work. I'd say at best maybe 50% have work. With that said, I love my job. I work at a large firm in their corporate department (my dream job when entering law school). I love the people I work with, and really couldn't be happier. It's a mixed bag though. Plenty of people with better grades, and better prior work experience struck out and are still looking, or landed something they can live with, but aren't really that excited about. In an economy this bad, you need some luck on top of credentials and personality.

Luck is definitely appreciated.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:09 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:Outside of the top 5 law schools, I think anyone who goes somewhere they aren't getting a full ride is stupid ITE.

People who go to these garbage schools need to understand that they have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job.


Well I guess I'm stupid and have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job even though I was BORN and BRED for SUCCESS and ACHIEVEMENT.


Man, no lulz?...I thought that joke always worked.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:11 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:Outside of the top 5 law schools, I think anyone who goes somewhere they aren't getting a full ride is stupid ITE.

People who go to these garbage schools need to understand that they have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job.


Well I guess I'm stupid and have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job even though I was BORN and BRED for SUCCESS and ACHIEVEMENT.


Man, no lulz?...I thought that joke always worked.


i'll admit my idiocy. i wanted to laugh but had no idea what you were talking about

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fatduck
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby fatduck » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:13 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:Outside of the top 5 law schools, I think anyone who goes somewhere they aren't getting a full ride is stupid ITE.

People who go to these garbage schools need to understand that they have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job.


Well I guess I'm stupid and have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job even though I was BORN and BRED for SUCCESS and ACHIEVEMENT.


Man, no lulz?...I thought that joke always worked.


i lol'd hard, but didn't want to derail the thread.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:32 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:Outside of the top 5 law schools, I think anyone who goes somewhere they aren't getting a full ride is stupid ITE.

People who go to these garbage schools need to understand that they have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job.


Well I guess I'm stupid and have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job even though I was BORN and BRED for SUCCESS and ACHIEVEMENT.


Man, no lulz?...I thought that joke always worked.

It makes me sad to know that I was not born and bred for such success and achievement. :cry: :wink:

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prezidentv8
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:44 pm

An old poster had that as his sig...anyway...back on topic we go...

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JazzOne
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby JazzOne » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:13 pm

Unemployed wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Tanicius wrote:God this thread is depressing.


not if you've won the biglaw lottery

I'm just laughing to the bank

I don't know a single person who got a biglaw job ITE who wasn't humbled by the experience. This poster does not have a biglaw job.

Mods, how about an outing?


TBF, I know plenty of people at my school who weren't humbled by the experience. Obviously most of them knew better than to broadcast their confidence in an asinine manner (both before and after the process), but OCI went exactly as their grades predicted.

I didn't mean humbled as in they had a personally bad experience. I meant humbled as in they saw many of their friends and classmates get fucked. I don't know anyone who was apathetic to that, even if they personally achieved their career objectives. Maybe you know a lot of assholes, but the successful people at my school seemed to have enough sense to take pride in their accomplishments without disparaging others.

porgie
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby porgie » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:35 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:Outside of the top 5 law schools, I think anyone who goes somewhere they aren't getting a full ride is stupid ITE.

People who go to these garbage schools need to understand that they have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job.


Well I guess I'm stupid and have NO CHANCE at ANY decent paying legal job even though I was BORN and BRED for SUCCESS and ACHIEVEMENT.


Man, no lulz?...I thought that joke always worked.


I just checked back in on this thread after going out to lunch and was just about to post this in response to your earlier joke: :lol:

porgie
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby porgie » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:40 pm

A'nold wrote:
porgie wrote:
Tanicius wrote:God this thread is depressing.


It's not nearly as depressing as it could be. No one who took on sticker debt and has no job prospects has posted, yet, and for good reason. Every time one of them posts, a bunch of 0Ls call the person a troll, tell the person to post on JDU, and then begin to critique everything they think the person did wrong. I'm sure there are some 2/3Ls who have jeopardized their job search in one way or another, but there are many students who don't fall into this category and still get shouted down by 0Ls. I understand why they do it. It's easier to rationalize away your fears by telling yourself that the person posting screwed up somehow in a way that was within their control. The employment forum would be a much more useful place if 0Ls didn't act this way.

TINOTTR.

There are MANY JDU trolls that post on this board and their doomsday message is way over the top, especially when most of them come from lower ranked schools and they expected a lavish NYC biglaw to land in their laps.

I have as much debt as a sticker-paying private school JD due to UG debt and I am currently jobless, so I match the type of poster you said hasn't posted in this thread. I actually think this site is too pessimistic and way too ready to believe they hype it hears.

That said, the economy IS horrible and people really are struggling. The JDU type posters are the ones like the dude that posted earlier to not go to ls unless you can go HYS or Hamilton at Columbia. They tell you you should have been a plumber. These are not the types we should be listening to. Also notice that their post counts are low and that their date of registration is new. I always listen to those that are real poster with a post history on this site. People hear what they want to hear and those that yell at us who tell the trolls to go away want to hear that their lives are over.

But it's fairly easy to spot legit trolls (ex: "anyone who pays full price for harvard is fucked") as opposed to people who just say, "top 1/3 at T10, didn't get anything, don't know what went wrong." Why's it so fucking hard for people to believe that a person who's in that position isn't a troll, especially when they don't say anything inflammatory? It's like they're convinced there's a plethora of fabulous jobs awaiting them and it's a big internet conspiracy to prevent them from going to law school and nabbing one of those jobs. It's ridiculous. If someone has good stats and doesn't have a job, it doesn't mean it's automatically a flame, but 0Ls like to pretend otherwise.

keg411
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:53 pm

I think most people do things "wrong" through their law school careers. I can already count several things I should have done and didn't do that could end up making a difference (or not making a difference). If someone says "I did everything right", I'm automatically skeptical because NO ONE does everything right. In some cases, it's easier to blame ITE than yourself.

I know if my grades hold and I don't get BigLawl it will probably be my fault. And if my grades drop, then it will definitely be my fault :lol:.

Anonymous User
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Annnd four pages in, and all we have are random anecdotes and backbiting. All that can be drawn from the anecdotes is either, depending on your temperament, the three cliches I posted back on page 1 or the belief that law school success is random luck.

The truth is that anyone's chances are very bad, but 0Ls will try to sift, and sift, and sift through anecdotes and partial information to find some golden nugget of hope. If hope doesn't work, they'll at least believe the dumb bunnies who say that LS is random.

But hey, OP, I'll feed you: I'm a top 10% 3L from MVP with a prestigious (2/9/DC Circuit) clerkship and a locked-in offer from a big law firm after that. Just about everyone else--say 90%--on Law Review is similarly fortunate. On the other hand, people at median are struggling and say things like "nobody has a job" to each other. I'd say that only 20%-30% of the people who I know are at median have a job--but how the hell would I know if they did, since nobody's talking about it? And how many people do I know? And for the few people who I know are above median but not on LR, my impression is that they do have jobs, although not necessarily of the type that they wanted.

And that tells you nothing useful. So here's where all this leaves you, 0Ls: BEFORE you "commit to an additional 3 years of schooling" (1) have a plan for the debt you're getting into, (2) have a concrete idea of exactly where you want to end up, and why, (3) have a concrete idea of what that job entails on a day-to-day basis, and (4) know in detail how you will get the grades and connections to get there through the next 3 years.

porgie
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby porgie » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Annnd four pages in, and all we have are random anecdotes and backbiting. All that can be drawn from the anecdotes is either, depending on your temperament, the three cliches I posted back on page 1 or the belief that law school success is random luck.

The truth is that anyone's chances are very bad, but 0Ls will try to sift, and sift, and sift through anecdotes and partial information to find some golden nugget of hope. If hope doesn't work, they'll at least believe the dumb bunnies who say that LS is random.

But hey, OP, I'll feed you: I'm a top 10% 3L from MVP with a prestigious (2/9/DC Circuit) clerkship and a locked-in offer from a big law firm after that. Just about everyone else--say 90%--on Law Review is similarly fortunate. On the other hand, people at median are struggling and say things like "nobody has a job" to each other. I'd say that only 20%-30% of the people who I know are at median have a job--but how the hell would I know if they did, since nobody's talking about it? And how many people do I know? And for the few people who I know are above median but not on LR, my impression is that they do have jobs, although not necessarily of the type that they wanted.

And that tells you nothing useful. So here's where all this leaves you, 0Ls: BEFORE you "commit to an additional 3 years of schooling" (1) have a plan for the debt you're getting into, (2) have a concrete idea of exactly where you want to end up, and why, (3) have a concrete idea of what that job entails on a day-to-day basis, and (4) know in detail how you will get the grades and connections to get there through the next 3 years.


well, to be fair, the OP did ask for anecdotes from 2/3Ls, so it's not like the thread was somehow derailed when people posted anecdotes.

I don't think anyone said LS is random, just that for the most part you can't predict beforehand how you'll do in school as a 0L or how employers will respond to you.

The last paragraph is great advice.

Hey-O
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Hey-O » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:59 pm

A'nold wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
A'nold, if you don't mind me asking, what is your plan for making it in this economy with that much debt? Are you concerned that this debt will affect your ability to purchase a house, raise kids, etc?


Believe it or not, I'm actually in a better position than I was b/f I started ls. At least I know have a career path. I grew up very poor and had to live entirely off of loans to get through UG. I wanted to go to college b/c I had spent a few years working crap jobs like retail and warehouse positions. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do I guess.

I hope to either use IBR's 10 year forgiveness plan because I have all federal loans (no private) or get a good paying firm job (which would be lucky at this point but not far-fetched as I have top grades and go to the best school in a like 5 state radius.

After about 10 years or so I hope I can look back and see a debt-free and great future that my parents, parent's parent's, etc. never could have dreamed of. When I say poverty, I mean that well over half of my relatives are on welfare and live in one bedroom apartments or trailers at middle age. Some of the kids have to get their clothes from charitable entities or from lower-middle class relatives. Anyway, that's where I am in this whole thing.


How do you have all fed loans? There's a cap at like 20k isn't there?

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fatduck
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby fatduck » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:01 pm

Hey-O wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
A'nold, if you don't mind me asking, what is your plan for making it in this economy with that much debt? Are you concerned that this debt will affect your ability to purchase a house, raise kids, etc?


Believe it or not, I'm actually in a better position than I was b/f I started ls. At least I know have a career path. I grew up very poor and had to live entirely off of loans to get through UG. I wanted to go to college b/c I had spent a few years working crap jobs like retail and warehouse positions. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do I guess.

I hope to either use IBR's 10 year forgiveness plan because I have all federal loans (no private) or get a good paying firm job (which would be lucky at this point but not far-fetched as I have top grades and go to the best school in a like 5 state radius.

After about 10 years or so I hope I can look back and see a debt-free and great future that my parents, parent's parent's, etc. never could have dreamed of. When I say poverty, I mean that well over half of my relatives are on welfare and live in one bedroom apartments or trailers at middle age. Some of the kids have to get their clothes from charitable entities or from lower-middle class relatives. Anyway, that's where I am in this whole thing.


How do you have all fed loans? There's a cap at like 20k isn't there?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grad_PLUS

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:06 pm

fatduck wrote:
Hey-O wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
A'nold, if you don't mind me asking, what is your plan for making it in this economy with that much debt? Are you concerned that this debt will affect your ability to purchase a house, raise kids, etc?


Believe it or not, I'm actually in a better position than I was b/f I started ls. At least I know have a career path. I grew up very poor and had to live entirely off of loans to get through UG. I wanted to go to college b/c I had spent a few years working crap jobs like retail and warehouse positions. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do I guess.

I hope to either use IBR's 10 year forgiveness plan because I have all federal loans (no private) or get a good paying firm job (which would be lucky at this point but not far-fetched as I have top grades and go to the best school in a like 5 state radius.

After about 10 years or so I hope I can look back and see a debt-free and great future that my parents, parent's parent's, etc. never could have dreamed of. When I say poverty, I mean that well over half of my relatives are on welfare and live in one bedroom apartments or trailers at middle age. Some of the kids have to get their clothes from charitable entities or from lower-middle class relatives. Anyway, that's where I am in this whole thing.


How do you have all fed loans? There's a cap at like 20k isn't there?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grad_PLUS


Annnnnnnnd, here is TCR. :wink: Plus UG, obviously.




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