Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:45 pm

MrAnon wrote:The reason people get angry and critical in these threads is because they are trying to sound a very stern warning from the future for 0Ls about what they are getting themselves into. It comes across as unpleasant because it is. The vast majority of grads are not finding themselves where they expected they would be. People talk about the "lost year" like it was a isolated to one class, but the truth is that is has continued for a second and now a third year.

Most professors are too smart to ask openly how the jobs picture is for students. It can be quite awkward for students whose loans pay the professors six figure salary to admit that they cannot now find work, so they leave that alone. But recently a professor at my T1 decided to ask how people were doing with their search. Of 9 graduating students in the room not a one had anything lined up. Several described opportunities they were chasing down or areas they were focused on, but none held an offer. If they graduated tomorrow they would all be unemployed. Where would they be without law school? Hard to say, but their net worth would clearly be higher.


I'd be in a pretty steep amount of debt making $14.90 an hour in an accounts payable position, lol. Still, you are correct that my net worth would be higher, at least for the next few years probably.

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:53 pm

MrAnon wrote:The reason people get angry and critical in these threads is because they are trying to sound a very stern warning from the future for 0Ls about what they are getting themselves into. It comes across as unpleasant because it is. The vast majority of grads are not finding themselves where they expected they would be. People talk about the "lost year" like it was a isolated to one class, but the truth is that is has continued for a second and now a third year.

Most professors are too smart to ask openly how the jobs picture is for students. It can be quite awkward for students whose loans pay the professors six figure salary to admit that they cannot now find work, so they leave that alone. But recently a professor at my T1 decided to ask how people were doing with their search. Of 9 graduating students in the room not a one had anything lined up. Several described opportunities they were chasing down or areas they were focused on, but none held an offer. If they graduated tomorrow they would all be unemployed. Where would they be without law school? Hard to say, but their net worth would clearly be higher.

Going to law school today is very much just postponing the day of reckoning. What I mean by that is that if you feel you are going to law school now because you can't get or are unqualified for various jobs, and you currently have school debt, well, odds are that this is the same way you'll feel after law school graduation, except you'll have more debt, and you'll realize that you could have done a variety of things before law school, but now it only makes sense to do law.


Depends on the T1 and the expectations/experiences of the 0L's, 1L's, etc.

otnemem
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby otnemem » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:19 am

Bottom 1/3 --> Infinite sadness


Does infinite sadness = unemployed or an inadequate 40-60k a year with 200k of crushing debt? I'd imagine some of both but what does the breakdown of bottom 1/3 at a school like Penn look like right now?

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Veyron
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:39 am

otnemem wrote:
Bottom 1/3 --> Infinite sadness


Does infinite sadness = unemployed or an inadequate 40-60k a year with 200k of crushing debt? I'd imagine some of both but what does the breakdown of bottom 1/3 at a school like Penn look like right now?


Some mix of unemployed living in mommy and daddy's basment/lower level PI [that pays 40 a year say]/ non-legal jobs/ doc review as a contract attorney.

Its worth noting that some of the bottom 1/3 people are JD/MBAs who planned to go into buisness on day one and are getting the JD more to help with that. Though they often end up in the bottom 1/3 due to law school grades not really being important to them, they are the exception to the rule.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:08 am

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
haoledugan wrote:Can we disagree without the condescension, please? Thanks

I'm torn. On the one hand, I respect your request for courteous conversation. And I purposely left out some of the snark I otherwise would've included in my last post because of that. But on the other hand, in this, the forum for students and graduates, I do think the students and the graduates get to choose the terms of debate. As was alluded to above, the relentless, unending tide of uninformed (albeit well-meaning) 0L commentary grows tiresome very, very quickly.


+1. Standard TLS debate on substantive issues... 0L poses a sorta silly question, but one worthy of an answer. Many 0Ls rush to respond with mounds of wisdom. A handful of 2L, 3L and the few lawyers on the board respond with facts and experiences they have had/have seen close friends have (and respond with a bit of snark because.. well.. hey.. saying the same thing gets old), 10,000 0Ls then go bat-shit because the responding upper classman/lawyer was a meanie-head... Then, sooner or later, the talk turns to how the meanie 3Ls or lawyers should get a life and stop posting on TLS, etc....


However, the fact of the matter remains that the warnings coming from the upper LS classman and lawyers are valid... The profession is NOT rebounding and systemically, it’s likely that jobs will continue to contract while the supply of lawyers will continue to climb (thanks to the ABAs policy of granting accreditation to every diploma-mill with 400,000 law books and 32 half-witted professors with zero practical experience and one year of clerkships under their belts). I say this having no horse in the race because frankly, I got into a specialized area of practice and have transferrable skills, along with substantial general state and federal litigation experience and thus will most likely be able to continue to earn a living as I move through my career. The same will not be true for the vast majority of people that choose to attend American Law schools over the next decade or more because the entry level jobs are just not there. The supply of lawyers with skills remains high and thus there is little incentive to hire new grads. This is not going to change anytime soon. This may sound like a generalization… Because it is.. Its my own opinion of the direction of the profession. I may be wrong, but what I (and many other practicing lawyers are seeing), seems to suggest that I’m not far off base.

2LLLL
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby 2LLLL » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:22 am

Going to law school today is very much just postponing the day of reckoning. What I mean by that is that if you feel you are going to law school now because you can't get or are unqualified for various jobs, and you currently have school debt, well, odds are that this is the same way you'll feel after law school graduation, except you'll have more debt, and you'll realize that you could have done a variety of things before law school, but now it only makes sense to do law.




TCR.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:49 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
haoledugan wrote:Can we disagree without the condescension, please? Thanks

I'm torn. On the one hand, I respect your request for courteous conversation. And I purposely left out some of the snark I otherwise would've included in my last post because of that. But on the other hand, in this, the forum for students and graduates, I do think the students and the graduates get to choose the terms of debate. As was alluded to above, the relentless, unending tide of uninformed (albeit well-meaning) 0L commentary grows tiresome very, very quickly.


+1. Standard TLS debate on substantive issues... 0L poses a sorta silly question, but one worthy of an answer. Many 0Ls rush to respond with mounds of wisdom. A handful of 2L, 3L and the few lawyers on the board respond with facts and experiences they have had/have seen close friends have (and respond with a bit of snark because.. well.. hey.. saying the same thing gets old), 10,000 0Ls then go bat-shit because the responding upper classman/lawyer was a meanie-head... Then, sooner or later, the talk turns to how the meanie 3Ls or lawyers should get a life and stop posting on TLS, etc....


However, the fact of the matter remains that the warnings coming from the upper LS classman and lawyers are valid... The profession is NOT rebounding and systemically, it’s likely that jobs will continue to contract while the supply of lawyers will continue to climb (thanks to the ABAs policy of granting accreditation to every diploma-mill with 400,000 law books and 32 half-witted professors with zero practical experience and one year of clerkships under their belts). I say this having no horse in the race because frankly, I got into a specialized area of practice and have transferrable skills, along with substantial general state and federal litigation experience and thus will most likely be able to continue to earn a living as I move through my career. The same will not be true for the vast majority of people that choose to attend American Law schools over the next decade or more because the entry level jobs are just not there. The supply of lawyers with skills remains high and thus there is little incentive to hire new grads. This is not going to change anytime soon. This may sound like a generalization… Because it is.. Its my own opinion of the direction of the profession. I may be wrong, but what I (and many other practicing lawyers are seeing), seems to suggest that I’m not far off base.


RM! It's good to see you back! I think people are beginning to listen. I am not speaking against going to law school, but people need to know the risks, and the very real possibility that what is available won't be the best fit for them. (Could you be happy even if you got the brass ring?)

To 0L readers, this man knows whereof he speaks.

/returns to working on licensing agreement.

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haoledugan
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby haoledugan » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:58 pm

last word

616rewind
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby 616rewind » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:45 pm

This is a good thread. Any other current 2Ls able to give a few anonymous profiles of their classmates? The GULC and Penn posts were really helpful.

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rayiner
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby rayiner » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:51 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You don't get it, do you? The short-term outlook might improve, or it might get a lot worse, but that's not what really matters. The long(er) term outlook for freshly minted law grads is unquestionably bad, and getting worse. This is a structural matter, and no amount of economic growth can change it. Law firms are getting leaner, clients are demanding more cost-efficiency, and refusing to pay for first year associate work. So lots of discovery jobs and other intro-level stuff is going overseas, or to commoditized law practices. At the same time, the price of a legal education is growing considerably faster than inflation or salaries. Debt loads are getting more oppressive, and interest rates remain high (and may go much higher still--hopefully not, of course). The overall supply of law grades is also rising, thus aggravating the supply/demand mismatch in the law labor market.

I could go on, but won't. The problems with the law economy are substantial, and go well beyond the way the economy is right now. Will an uptick in the general economy help legal hiring? Yes. But it won't solve any of the above, and those things are the real dangers.


Also, Rev, do you just come here to laugh at the poor 0L's who will almost certainly be fucked over in the end? Obviously, your law degree worked out for you. Why do you come around and say the chances of it working out for anyone else are morbidly slim?


Going to a T14 and getting superlative grades did work out for him, yes. What is your point?

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rayiner
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby rayiner » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:57 pm

beachbum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Hey-O wrote:I hope this thread doesn't die. I really liked seeing some impressions from actual students. I would also be interested in some information from higher ranked schools 1-10 or so.


Penn

Top - 10% --> Enjoy CSM/V5/COA
Top 1/3 --> Enjoy V20 biglaw or biglaw in a market of your choice
Median - Top 1/3 --> Enjoy biglaw (if you bid well)
Median --> OK shot at biglaw
2/3 - Median --> Some shot at NYC Biglaw
Bottom 1/3 --> Infinite sadness

P.S. Biglaw does most hiring. Good PI (i.e. PI where you can eat and pay your bills) is similarly competitve.


This seems much rosier than what a lot of people suggest around here. Veyron (or other Penn students), any thoughts on these estimates?


This is not dissimilar to the situation at NU.

That being said, this is not particularly rosy. Even if 75% of people get a job they are happy with (which I'd say is true for C/O 2012), that's still 1 out of 4 of our friends staring down at $200k of debt without sure employment.

cubswin
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby cubswin » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:56 pm

rayiner wrote:
beachbum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Hey-O wrote:I hope this thread doesn't die. I really liked seeing some impressions from actual students. I would also be interested in some information from higher ranked schools 1-10 or so.


Penn

Top - 10% --> Enjoy CSM/V5/COA
Top 1/3 --> Enjoy V20 biglaw or biglaw in a market of your choice
Median - Top 1/3 --> Enjoy biglaw (if you bid well)
Median --> OK shot at biglaw
2/3 - Median --> Some shot at NYC Biglaw
Bottom 1/3 --> Infinite sadness

P.S. Biglaw does most hiring. Good PI (i.e. PI where you can eat and pay your bills) is similarly competitve.


This seems much rosier than what a lot of people suggest around here. Veyron (or other Penn students), any thoughts on these estimates?


This is not dissimilar to the situation at NU.

That being said, this is not particularly rosy. Even if 75% of people get a job they are happy with (which I'd say is true for C/O 2012), that's still 1 out of 4 of our friends staring down at $200k of debt without sure employment.


Ugh. Is that 1/4 pretty much the bottom 1/4 of the class, with some exceptions? Are people looking to work in Chicago doing better than people looking to work elsewhere?

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rayiner
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby rayiner » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:40 pm

cubswin wrote:
rayiner wrote:
beachbum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Penn

Top - 10% --> Enjoy CSM/V5/COA
Top 1/3 --> Enjoy V20 biglaw or biglaw in a market of your choice
Median - Top 1/3 --> Enjoy biglaw (if you bid well)
Median --> OK shot at biglaw
2/3 - Median --> Some shot at NYC Biglaw
Bottom 1/3 --> Infinite sadness

P.S. Biglaw does most hiring. Good PI (i.e. PI where you can eat and pay your bills) is similarly competitve.


This seems much rosier than what a lot of people suggest around here. Veyron (or other Penn students), any thoughts on these estimates?


This is not dissimilar to the situation at NU.

That being said, this is not particularly rosy. Even if 75% of people get a job they are happy with (which I'd say is true for C/O 2012), that's still 1 out of 4 of our friends staring down at $200k of debt without sure employment.


Ugh. Is that 1/4 pretty much the bottom 1/4 of the class, with some exceptions? Are people looking to work in Chicago doing better than people looking to work elsewhere?


Nope. People with great grades can get personality-pwned, people with good grades can bid poorly or look in the wrong markets, and everyone else has various amounts of success based on market choice, prior WE, having a technical or tax background, connections, effort, and luck.

Even for people who are successful, it's harrowing. Lot's of people who do get jobs do 3 callbacks -> 1 offer. That's scary shit.

That being said, I think things have stabilized. It's not boom times, but law firms are adapting to the new climate and are hiring again. I wouldn't be surprised if C/O 2013 ultimately made out as well as C/O 2005: http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf (who did OCI in the second dip of the millennial recession).

If you really want to be a lawyer, I would not counsel you out of going to a T14 school. I think at that level, more likely than not you'll be OK. However, I would counsel you to get a job first. Even at NU where most people came in with WE, lot's of people quickly realized they didn't like law school. It is a terrible idea to get into $200k of debt until you've matured a little bit and found out who you are and what you want to do.

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:53 pm

Anybody from the New York T-14 have estimated break downs like the above? Im only going to law school if I either get into Columbia, NYU or Cornell, or if I get a full ride to a lesser school.

What are the chances of biglaw for those 3 schools? So far the research I have done shows basically top 40% at Cornell and top 50% at NYU and Columbia. Then again that doesn't account for self selection.

Anonymous User
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anybody from the New York T-14 have estimated break downs like the above? Im only going to law school if I either get into Columbia, NYU or Cornell, or if I get a full ride to a lesser school.

What are the chances of biglaw for those 3 schools? So far the research I have done shows basically top 40% at Cornell and top 50% at NYU and Columbia. Then again that doesn't account for self selection.

As noted in lots of threads all the time, that's not really how it works. Resume/interviewing skillz/bidding strategy play a huge role.

Word on the street from confidential sources at Cornell is that 70% of those who did OCI got something (this includes boutiques and a few non-vault NLJ250 firms). It seems to me like every person I talk to is going to a V50 or was shooting for and has landed a sweet PI gig. However, I know of a couple people in the top 1/3rd who didn't get anything at all.

Tdawg7669
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Tdawg7669 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:26 pm

By resume do you mean work experience? How much would only working part time at a grocery store during my undergrad years hurt me?(I stayed with them because they were flexible enough with my hours that there wasn't any major conflicts with my class schedule)

Or when you say that do you mean summer jobs/intern/research during law school?

Thanks in advance for a reply.

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haoledugan
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby haoledugan » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:47 pm

just trying to keep this thead alive.




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