Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

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Hey-O
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Hey-O » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:09 pm

Oh, I forgot that GradPlus was fed.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:36 pm

JazzOne wrote:I didn't mean humbled as in they had a personally bad experience. I meant humbled as in they saw many of their friends and classmates get fucked. I don't know anyone who was apathetic to that, even if they personally achieved their career objectives. Maybe you know a lot of assholes, but the successful people at my school seemed to have enough sense to take pride in their accomplishments without disparaging others.

It was a weird experience watching my friends struggle with failure at OCI.

Anonymous User
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:38 am

thesealocust wrote:I'd like to add something about the structure of legal employment. It has nothing to do with my personal experiences or job search, but I think it contributes to a lot of the tension on this board between 0L rosy expectations and the law student / grad jaded outlook.

In other fields, if you don't get the best, there is a larger pool of not-the-best. If you don't get into the T14, there are actually something like 15 times that number of law schools out there you might get into instead. If you didn't get into an Ivy, there are hundreds and hundreds of other colleges. If you don't get a job working for Congress, there are political jobs in every state and county of the country.

With legal jobs, it doesn't quite work that way. The biggest firms hire dozens of summer associates and take them in to train and become full-time associates. But for other, smaller organizations law students bring very little to the table. You are, hopefully within months of graduation, a licensed attorney - but one with almost no skills. Law School probably teaches more, at least in terms of structure and analytical ability, than some jaded students like to admit - but it absolutely doesn't teach you how to write a brief for a real court, how to argue a real motion, how to draft a real contract, etc.

That means most of the non-big firm organizations have little incentive to look for recent grads. And, substantially more troubling, there's another pool of candidates: Those who (voluntarily or otherwise) are leaving the big firms.

A huge area of jobs, from boutique small firm work, to government regulatory work, to corporate in house departments, hire a majority if not an entirety of their new employees from pools of former big law attorneys. Turnover is enormous, but one thing big law is well known for is its ability to train new attorneys - and to do so at or close to a profit. The business model just doesn't exist for a lot of other organizations to be taking on law grads.

So while there are many, many more small to mid-sized law firms than there are big law firms, those firms (a) have substantially smaller hiring needs and (b) are at any given level much more likely to rely on lateral hires than fresh law grads.

So unlike most other things in life, 'the best' (i.e. big firms) take up a disproportionately large share of 'everything available'. To throw out a statistic, Ivy league and similar colleges are under 1% of the total colleges in the country, and the top 14 law schools are about 7% of all law schools - but big firm like jobs are probably about 20% of all available entry level legal positions, and if you tack on that which is as hard or harder to get (clerkships, many fed government posts, public interest with places like the ACLU) you'll start to see how large a proportion of "what is even out there to obtain" is made up by the kinds of jobs that are so hard to get outside of the best schools.

The market for fresh law grads outside of 'big firm and similar' exists, and of course every year a large number of people get those jobs. But understanding the dynamics of the legal sector will go a long way to understanding why "but I don't want big law!" is often treated with eye-rolls or outright scorn.


I've been thinking about this thread and what I ought to contribute to it. You are, of course, correct that the jobs labeled "big firm and similar" (throwing in fed govt, clerkships, and large PI orgs) provide the best training to be had, and genuine exit options into a host of other areas. Because I realized this, I gave everything for my first year grades and prepared myself for OCI. I knew a biglaw position was likely to make me gut-wrenchingly miserable and was utterly wrong for me, but I also knew I had to get one if I possibly could. I got swept up in the excitement, and I almost convinced myself this was what I really wanted.

Of course, it didn't work that way. Whether my creative UG and major put hiring partners off, I'll never be sure, but perhaps they simply realized I would not be a good fit for life in a big firm. Though I was unable to see it at the time, striking out at OCI was the biggest unexpected blessing of my life. What did I get? An in house internship at a fashion company, which reminded me that I couldn't just turn my back on the creative environment I had always loved. The problem, of course, is that my fashion company doesn't generally hire new graduates. (It did so recently, however, so I'll note that it is difficult but not impossible to go directly in house.)

OP, I think you have to know yourself. I came to law school looking for a new beginning, but my error was in thinking that I could just cease to be the person I had always been. My happiness was fundamentally incompatible with a biglaw job, even though I knew it was the best training I could get. I suffered a lot for being unable to land what I never really wanted. Today, I am still enjoying law school and my internship, but I've realized that I might not practice, and if I do, it will have to be something off the beaten path that fits me, the fashion student who went to law school. In the mean time, I'm bluebooking up a storm and designing a line of handmade jewelry to sell at my first professional trunk show. I have no doubt that I'll land on my feet, because I intend to do what makes me happy, and not what I "have" to do with my career. I have no regrets. That is all I have to say, I think, and beyond it, the above quoted is correct.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I'd like to add something about the structure of legal employment. It has nothing to do with my personal experiences or job search, but I think it contributes to a lot of the tension on this board between 0L rosy expectations and the law student / grad jaded outlook.

In other fields, if you don't get the best, there is a larger pool of not-the-best. If you don't get into the T14, there are actually something like 15 times that number of law schools out there you might get into instead. If you didn't get into an Ivy, there are hundreds and hundreds of other colleges. If you don't get a job working for Congress, there are political jobs in every state and county of the country.

With legal jobs, it doesn't quite work that way. The biggest firms hire dozens of summer associates and take them in to train and become full-time associates. But for other, smaller organizations law students bring very little to the table. You are, hopefully within months of graduation, a licensed attorney - but one with almost no skills. Law School probably teaches more, at least in terms of structure and analytical ability, than some jaded students like to admit - but it absolutely doesn't teach you how to write a brief for a real court, how to argue a real motion, how to draft a real contract, etc.

That means most of the non-big firm organizations have little incentive to look for recent grads. And, substantially more troubling, there's another pool of candidates: Those who (voluntarily or otherwise) are leaving the big firms.

A huge area of jobs, from boutique small firm work, to government regulatory work, to corporate in house departments, hire a majority if not an entirety of their new employees from pools of former big law attorneys. Turnover is enormous, but one thing big law is well known for is its ability to train new attorneys - and to do so at or close to a profit. The business model just doesn't exist for a lot of other organizations to be taking on law grads.

So while there are many, many more small to mid-sized law firms than there are big law firms, those firms (a) have substantially smaller hiring needs and (b) are at any given level much more likely to rely on lateral hires than fresh law grads.

So unlike most other things in life, 'the best' (i.e. big firms) take up a disproportionately large share of 'everything available'. To throw out a statistic, Ivy league and similar colleges are under 1% of the total colleges in the country, and the top 14 law schools are about 7% of all law schools - but big firm like jobs are probably about 20% of all available entry level legal positions, and if you tack on that which is as hard or harder to get (clerkships, many fed government posts, public interest with places like the ACLU) you'll start to see how large a proportion of "what is even out there to obtain" is made up by the kinds of jobs that are so hard to get outside of the best schools.

The market for fresh law grads outside of 'big firm and similar' exists, and of course every year a large number of people get those jobs. But understanding the dynamics of the legal sector will go a long way to understanding why "but I don't want big law!" is often treated with eye-rolls or outright scorn.


I've been thinking about this thread and what I ought to contribute to it. You are, of course, correct that the jobs labeled "big firm and similar" (throwing in fed govt, clerkships, and large PI orgs) provide the best training to be had, and genuine exit options into a host of other areas. Because I realized this, I gave everything for my first year grades and prepared myself for OCI. I knew a biglaw position was likely to make me gut-wrenchingly miserable and was utterly wrong for me, but I also knew I had to get one if I possibly could. I got swept up in the excitement, and I almost convinced myself this was what I really wanted.

Of course, it didn't work that way. Whether my creative UG and major put hiring partners off, I'll never be sure, but perhaps they simply realized I would not be a good fit for life in a big firm. Though I was unable to see it at the time, striking out at OCI was the biggest unexpected blessing of my life. What did I get? An in house internship at a fashion company, which reminded me that I couldn't just turn my back on the creative environment I had always loved. The problem, of course, is that my fashion company doesn't generally hire new graduates. (It did so recently, however, so I'll note that it is difficult but not impossible to go directly in house.)

OP, I think you have to know yourself. I came to law school looking for a new beginning, but my error was in thinking that I could just cease to be the person I had always been. My happiness was fundamentally incompatible with a biglaw job, even though I knew it was the best training I could get. I suffered a lot for being unable to land what I never really wanted. Today, I am still enjoying law school and my internship, but I've realized that I might not practice, and if I do, it will have to be something off the beaten path that fits me, the fashion student who went to law school. In the mean time, I'm bluebooking up a storm and designing a line of handmade jewelry to sell at my first professional trunk show. I have no doubt that I'll land on my feet, because I intend to do what makes me happy, and not what I "have" to do with my career. I have no regrets. That is all I have to say, I think, and beyond it, the above quoted is correct.


This is a great outlook. As for me, I am still so up in the air as to what I actually want to do that it is kind of daunting right now. The cool thing is that I have found every kind of law subject (except environmental law) very interesting and I could see myself doing a variety of things in my legal career.

Anonymous User
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:31 am

A'nold wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I'd like to add something about the structure of legal employment. It has nothing to do with my personal experiences or job search, but I think it contributes to a lot of the tension on this board between 0L rosy expectations and the law student / grad jaded outlook.

In other fields, if you don't get the best, there is a larger pool of not-the-best. If you don't get into the T14, there are actually something like 15 times that number of law schools out there you might get into instead. If you didn't get into an Ivy, there are hundreds and hundreds of other colleges. If you don't get a job working for Congress, there are political jobs in every state and county of the country.

With legal jobs, it doesn't quite work that way. The biggest firms hire dozens of summer associates and take them in to train and become full-time associates. But for other, smaller organizations law students bring very little to the table. You are, hopefully within months of graduation, a licensed attorney - but one with almost no skills. Law School probably teaches more, at least in terms of structure and analytical ability, than some jaded students like to admit - but it absolutely doesn't teach you how to write a brief for a real court, how to argue a real motion, how to draft a real contract, etc.

That means most of the non-big firm organizations have little incentive to look for recent grads. And, substantially more troubling, there's another pool of candidates: Those who (voluntarily or otherwise) are leaving the big firms.

A huge area of jobs, from boutique small firm work, to government regulatory work, to corporate in house departments, hire a majority if not an entirety of their new employees from pools of former big law attorneys. Turnover is enormous, but one thing big law is well known for is its ability to train new attorneys - and to do so at or close to a profit. The business model just doesn't exist for a lot of other organizations to be taking on law grads.

So while there are many, many more small to mid-sized law firms than there are big law firms, those firms (a) have substantially smaller hiring needs and (b) are at any given level much more likely to rely on lateral hires than fresh law grads.

So unlike most other things in life, 'the best' (i.e. big firms) take up a disproportionately large share of 'everything available'. To throw out a statistic, Ivy league and similar colleges are under 1% of the total colleges in the country, and the top 14 law schools are about 7% of all law schools - but big firm like jobs are probably about 20% of all available entry level legal positions, and if you tack on that which is as hard or harder to get (clerkships, many fed government posts, public interest with places like the ACLU) you'll start to see how large a proportion of "what is even out there to obtain" is made up by the kinds of jobs that are so hard to get outside of the best schools.

The market for fresh law grads outside of 'big firm and similar' exists, and of course every year a large number of people get those jobs. But understanding the dynamics of the legal sector will go a long way to understanding why "but I don't want big law!" is often treated with eye-rolls or outright scorn.


I've been thinking about this thread and what I ought to contribute to it. You are, of course, correct that the jobs labeled "big firm and similar" (throwing in fed govt, clerkships, and large PI orgs) provide the best training to be had, and genuine exit options into a host of other areas. Because I realized this, I gave everything for my first year grades and prepared myself for OCI. I knew a biglaw position was likely to make me gut-wrenchingly miserable and was utterly wrong for me, but I also knew I had to get one if I possibly could. I got swept up in the excitement, and I almost convinced myself this was what I really wanted.

Of course, it didn't work that way. Whether my creative UG and major put hiring partners off, I'll never be sure, but perhaps they simply realized I would not be a good fit for life in a big firm. Though I was unable to see it at the time, striking out at OCI was the biggest unexpected blessing of my life. What did I get? An in house internship at a fashion company, which reminded me that I couldn't just turn my back on the creative environment I had always loved. The problem, of course, is that my fashion company doesn't generally hire new graduates. (It did so recently, however, so I'll note that it is difficult but not impossible to go directly in house.)

OP, I think you have to know yourself. I came to law school looking for a new beginning, but my error was in thinking that I could just cease to be the person I had always been. My happiness was fundamentally incompatible with a biglaw job, even though I knew it was the best training I could get. I suffered a lot for being unable to land what I never really wanted. Today, I am still enjoying law school and my internship, but I've realized that I might not practice, and if I do, it will have to be something off the beaten path that fits me, the fashion student who went to law school. In the mean time, I'm bluebooking up a storm and designing a line of handmade jewelry to sell at my first professional trunk show. I have no doubt that I'll land on my feet, because I intend to do what makes me happy, and not what I "have" to do with my career. I have no regrets. That is all I have to say, I think, and beyond it, the above quoted is correct.


This is a great outlook. As for me, I am still so up in the air as to what I actually want to do that it is kind of daunting right now. The cool thing is that I have found every kind of law subject (except environmental law) very interesting and I could see myself doing a variety of things in my legal career.


A'nold! This is Anonymous, above. I have a similar problem-- I find so many things interesting that I can't seriously regret having one avenue closed off. I kept thinking I had to fit all my life ambitions in a certain box, but I don't, and neither do you. You've done wonderful things in your legal career already! We both have 1L years we can remember proudly, and we are at schools that fit us well. I'm ready for the next great adventure.

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Veyron
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:36 am

haoledugan wrote:As a soon to be 1L who has now committed to 3 years of additional schooling, I have been searching for qualified insight into the current job outlook for recent law grads... I don't think I'm alone here. I would love to see questions answered without the undue sarcasm, snide remarks, and unsubstantiated claims so often a part of the other topics here in TLS Forums.

To start, I would be very interested in hearing from some 2L's, 3L's, and recent grads about their personal experience in finding legal work.


And I'd like to see robust legal hiring, aint gonna happen.

P.S. your personal job opportunities are going to be curtailed by the fact that your attitude makes you completely unsuited for litigation.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I'd like to add something about the structure of legal employment. It has nothing to do with my personal experiences or job search, but I think it contributes to a lot of the tension on this board between 0L rosy expectations and the law student / grad jaded outlook.

In other fields, if you don't get the best, there is a larger pool of not-the-best. If you don't get into the T14, there are actually something like 15 times that number of law schools out there you might get into instead. If you didn't get into an Ivy, there are hundreds and hundreds of other colleges. If you don't get a job working for Congress, there are political jobs in every state and county of the country.

With legal jobs, it doesn't quite work that way. The biggest firms hire dozens of summer associates and take them in to train and become full-time associates. But for other, smaller organizations law students bring very little to the table. You are, hopefully within months of graduation, a licensed attorney - but one with almost no skills. Law School probably teaches more, at least in terms of structure and analytical ability, than some jaded students like to admit - but it absolutely doesn't teach you how to write a brief for a real court, how to argue a real motion, how to draft a real contract, etc.

That means most of the non-big firm organizations have little incentive to look for recent grads. And, substantially more troubling, there's another pool of candidates: Those who (voluntarily or otherwise) are leaving the big firms.

A huge area of jobs, from boutique small firm work, to government regulatory work, to corporate in house departments, hire a majority if not an entirety of their new employees from pools of former big law attorneys. Turnover is enormous, but one thing big law is well known for is its ability to train new attorneys - and to do so at or close to a profit. The business model just doesn't exist for a lot of other organizations to be taking on law grads.

So while there are many, many more small to mid-sized law firms than there are big law firms, those firms (a) have substantially smaller hiring needs and (b) are at any given level much more likely to rely on lateral hires than fresh law grads.

So unlike most other things in life, 'the best' (i.e. big firms) take up a disproportionately large share of 'everything available'. To throw out a statistic, Ivy league and similar colleges are under 1% of the total colleges in the country, and the top 14 law schools are about 7% of all law schools - but big firm like jobs are probably about 20% of all available entry level legal positions, and if you tack on that which is as hard or harder to get (clerkships, many fed government posts, public interest with places like the ACLU) you'll start to see how large a proportion of "what is even out there to obtain" is made up by the kinds of jobs that are so hard to get outside of the best schools.

The market for fresh law grads outside of 'big firm and similar' exists, and of course every year a large number of people get those jobs. But understanding the dynamics of the legal sector will go a long way to understanding why "but I don't want big law!" is often treated with eye-rolls or outright scorn.


I've been thinking about this thread and what I ought to contribute to it. You are, of course, correct that the jobs labeled "big firm and similar" (throwing in fed govt, clerkships, and large PI orgs) provide the best training to be had, and genuine exit options into a host of other areas. Because I realized this, I gave everything for my first year grades and prepared myself for OCI. I knew a biglaw position was likely to make me gut-wrenchingly miserable and was utterly wrong for me, but I also knew I had to get one if I possibly could. I got swept up in the excitement, and I almost convinced myself this was what I really wanted.

Of course, it didn't work that way. Whether my creative UG and major put hiring partners off, I'll never be sure, but perhaps they simply realized I would not be a good fit for life in a big firm. Though I was unable to see it at the time, striking out at OCI was the biggest unexpected blessing of my life. What did I get? An in house internship at a fashion company, which reminded me that I couldn't just turn my back on the creative environment I had always loved. The problem, of course, is that my fashion company doesn't generally hire new graduates. (It did so recently, however, so I'll note that it is difficult but not impossible to go directly in house.)

OP, I think you have to know yourself. I came to law school looking for a new beginning, but my error was in thinking that I could just cease to be the person I had always been. My happiness was fundamentally incompatible with a biglaw job, even though I knew it was the best training I could get. I suffered a lot for being unable to land what I never really wanted. Today, I am still enjoying law school and my internship, but I've realized that I might not practice, and if I do, it will have to be something off the beaten path that fits me, the fashion student who went to law school. In the mean time, I'm bluebooking up a storm and designing a line of handmade jewelry to sell at my first professional trunk show. I have no doubt that I'll land on my feet, because I intend to do what makes me happy, and not what I "have" to do with my career. I have no regrets. That is all I have to say, I think, and beyond it, the above quoted is correct.


This is a great outlook. As for me, I am still so up in the air as to what I actually want to do that it is kind of daunting right now. The cool thing is that I have found every kind of law subject (except environmental law) very interesting and I could see myself doing a variety of things in my legal career.


A'nold! This is Anonymous, above. I have a similar problem-- I find so many things interesting that I can't seriously regret having one avenue closed off. I kept thinking I had to fit all my life ambitions in a certain box, but I don't, and neither do you. You've done wonderful things in your legal career already! We both have 1L years we can remember proudly, and we are at schools that fit us well. I'm ready for the next great adventure.

I'm ready too. Let's get to that already. 8) :)

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:59 am

The whole "keep your debt as low as possible" thing needs to be qualified with an HYS (CCN?) exception, obvi. If you're going to do bad in law school, might as well do bad somewhere that can still get you biglaw.

pasteurizedmilk
Posts: 460
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:37 am

Veyron wrote:
haoledugan wrote:As a soon to be 1L who has now committed to 3 years of additional schooling, I have been searching for qualified insight into the current job outlook for recent law grads... I don't think I'm alone here. I would love to see questions answered without the undue sarcasm, snide remarks, and unsubstantiated claims so often a part of the other topics here in TLS Forums.

To start, I would be very interested in hearing from some 2L's, 3L's, and recent grads about their personal experience in finding legal work.


And I'd like to see robust legal hiring, aint gonna happen.

P.S. your personal job opportunities are going to be curtailed by the fact that your attitude makes you completely unsuited for litigation.

Could you describe your extensive experience in litigation?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273121
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:42 am

Caveat: I wanted to make this not anonymous but I couldn't because I would be outing so many people that it would not be great for me. Not sure if any of them read this site but if any one of them did, they would certainly know who was giving out their info. But this is a legit anecdote from about 5% of the class of 2012 at GULC, with varied grades and other law school activities.

Student 1: Top third, Ivy undergrad, summer RA with a prof after 1L, secondary journal = SA at Magic Circle firm in London from OCI.

Student 2: Top third, state undergrad, mock trial, no journal, 1L summer at boutique lit. firm in DC = nothing from OCI, still looking.

Student 3: Top third, main journal, 1L summer with AUSA in NYC, ivy undergrad = V20 in orange county, CA from OCI.

Student 4: Top ten, main journal, top Liberal Arts undergrad, 1L summer at small firm in hometown (small market), prior professional writing experience = V5 in NYC from OCI.

Student 5: Above median, masters and undergrad from Ivy, 1L IP experience with non-profit, clinic and writing fellow, secondary journal = IP boutique in DC from OCI.

Student 6: Top ten (probably more like top 1, but no way to know for sure), ivy undergrad, 10 years work experience in unrelated field, 1L summer with employment union, secondary journal = nothing from OCI, working with a legal aid non-profit.

Student 7: Top third, main journal, clinic, not sure about undergrad or 1L summer = skipped OCI, took public defender job in DC.

Student 8: Above median, but barely, basic undergrad, secondary journal, prior high-level work experience in state government, 1L summer with federal agency in DC, big connections in home market = OCI offer from politically connected firm in home state.

Student 9: Above median, top non-ivy undergrad, masters from Ivy, secondary journal, clinic, 1L summer with small firm in MD = top firm in Boston from OCI.

Student 10: Top third, secondary journal, top non-ivy undergrad, 1L summer with federal judge in NY = V5 NYC from OCI.

Student 11: Above median, state undergrad, prior state government experience, split 1L summer with judge and DA office in home state, secondary journal, moot court = nothing from OCI, small firm in DC from symplicity.

Student 12: Median, performing arts undergrad, secondary journal, 1L AUSA in Cali, urm, prior big law paralegal = V10 in NYC.

Student 13: Median (maybe below), state undergrad, urm, secondary journal, 1L summer with federal judge in hometown = nothing from OCI, still looking.

Student 14: Median (maybe below), state undergrad, 1L summer with environmental non-profit = nothing from OCI, working with a different environmental non-profit.

Student 15: Top third, secondary journal, Ivy undergrad, not sure about 1L summer = DOJ SLIP Antitrust, field office in midwest.

Student 16: median, secondary journal, top state undergrad, prior work experience in unrelated field, 1L summer unknown = nothing from OCI, small firm from secondary recruiting program.

Student 17: top ten, main journal, state undergrad, moot court, 1L summer with biglaw DC, prior IT experience = V5 NYC from OCI

Student 18: top third, main journal, ivy undergrad, 1L summer unknown = V20 NYC

Student 19: median, state undergrad, secondary journal, 1L summer with DA in home state = nothing from OCI, still looking.

Student 20: median, top non-ivy undergrad, international internship (traveling) during 1L summer, not sure about journal = Magic Circle firm in London from OCI.

Student 21: median, ivy undergrad, peace corps, secondary journal, 1L on the Hill = nothing from OCI, biglaw from symplicity.

Student 22: above median, state undergrad, secondary journal, urm, 1L summer unknown = nothing from OCI, still looking.

I know of a dozen or so others near median or top third with nothing from OCI and still looking, but I don't know enough about them to make it useful. Also know a handful of others with strong grades, above top third, and various work experience that got something either out of OCI or after. Official numbers from OCI have not been released but after speaking with the dean of OCS a few weeks ago, I was told 30-40% got something from OCI, which includes the government interviewing program. As of that time, half of the class had not reported back as having found work for the summer.

As for me: slightly above median (3.3ish), no journal, moot court, clinic, prior work experience in small law firm as a paralegal, 1L summer with a federal court in DC = nothing from OCI, either biglaw or government, got a job with a federal agency (unpaid) by cold resume sends. Boosted gpa from last semester, and if I can repeat the same this semester, I will easily be at a 3.7 and in the top ten, hoping to get a federal clerkship and try again to get biglaw.

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DallasCowboy
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby DallasCowboy » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:08 pm

ivy trolling?

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:30 pm

Here's some more GULC data for you all, based on what I know (not the poster from a few up)

Student 1: Top 10/15, top non-ivy undergrad, moot court, secondary journal, 1L summer at NY AUSA = V15 in DC
Student 2: Top 5, top non-ivy undergrad, moot court, main journal, 1L abroad = V10 DC
Student 3: Top 1/3, top non-ivy undergrad, secondary journal, 1L summer at DA in home state = V50
Student 4: Top 1/3, state undergrad, secondary journal, 1L RA, moot court = Nothing/struck out at OCI
Student 5: Top 1/3, state undergrad, secondary journal, moot court, 1L summer at public interest position in DC = V40 in CA
Student 6: Median at best, URM, top state undergrad, secondary journal, moot court, not sure about 1L summer = V50 in NY
Student 7: Top 10 (probably T5), URM, top non-ivy undergrad, main journal, not sure about moot court, 1L summer with EDNY judge = V5 NYC
Student 8: Top 10, state undergrad, main journal, not sure about 1L summer = V5 in DC
Student 9: Top 10, strong liberal arts undergrad, main journal, 1L summer RA position = V5 NYC
Student 10: Top 10, strong liberal arts undergrad, not sure about journal/summer job = V5 NYC


There are obviously several others, but I get a feeling the poster above and I may be overlapping on some of them, and I don't know enough details. Suffice to say, about 30-40% of us do have jobs, definitely, and I know some people who have been getting them in the last few weeks as well. There was spring OCI the other day here as well. We have about 6 going to Cleary, 2 at GD NYC, at least 1 at GD in California (not sure which office) - none going to Gibson were in the Top 15, most likely Top 1/3. There were plenty of other offers that went around.

Of note on the 30-40% figure -- we self report to OCS, and not everyone does. The system for collecting that data here is quite poor. GULC has also instituted a "3L Boot Camp" of sorts that will provide extremely personalized career advising for those 3Ls looking for jobs. Feedback I've heard from people involved with the program or who knew about it before it was announced is quite positive and it looks like a good initiative that hopefully will pay off.

I also know of at least 3 3Ls who are Top 10, all on main journal, who have circuit court clerkships (we are talking GPAs in the <3.8 range, mostly). But according to the clerkships adviser, very few people applied for clerkships this year, for some reason.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SteelReserve
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby SteelReserve » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:33 pm

Okay OP, I will bite; you asked for whatever our situation is and here's mine:

I am a 3L at a T50-100 school in the top 15% with Law Review, internships, and law firm experience during my law school career.

I currently have a state level trial court clerkship lined up. I am looking forward to it and I plan on practicing in the state of my clerkship so i HOPE this will work out for me. I'm not naive enough to deny that I may not get a job in law after my clerkship ends, though I do hope I will and I plan on gunning hard for one.

As for the REST of my class, I can safely and confidently say that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80-90% of my graduating class does NOT have a JD-required and/or law job lined up. I can't speak for people who are going back to previous non-law careers or who plan on working in retail/etc, I'm just listing the percentage of people who have law-related jobs, and I estimate that to be around 10%...20% is probably far too generous.

Note that the 10% with legal jobs INCLUDES one-year clerkships. If you wanted to know how many people in my class have big firm jobs, I can count the number on 2 hands.

I'd say the biggest problem is the lack of government hiring. There is nothing, no state attorney, no attorney general, no public defender, no prosecution...nothing. No big firm jobs. Small firms (understandably) don't want to take on a newly minted JD and have to take 2 years to train him when they can get a guy with 5+ years experience for the same pay rate.

Anyway, that's the situation at my school in hard numbers, as well as my own personal anecdote. Draw whatever conclusions from this you will.

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:41 pm

this turned out to be a great thread. thanks for the information yall

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:58 pm

SteelReserve wrote:Okay OP, I will bite; you asked for whatever our situation is and here's mine:

I am a 3L at a T50-100 school in the top 15% with Law Review, internships, and law firm experience during my law school career.

I currently have a state level trial court clerkship lined up. I am looking forward to it and I plan on practicing in the state of my clerkship so i HOPE this will work out for me. I'm not naive enough to deny that I may not get a job in law after my clerkship ends, though I do hope I will and I plan on gunning hard for one.

As for the REST of my class, I can safely and confidently say that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80-90% of my graduating class does NOT have a JD-required and/or law job lined up. I can't speak for people who are going back to previous non-law careers or who plan on working in retail/etc, I'm just listing the percentage of people who have law-related jobs, and I estimate that to be around 10%...20% is probably far too generous.

Note that the 10% with legal jobs INCLUDES one-year clerkships. If you wanted to know how many people in my class have big firm jobs, I can count the number on 2 hands.

I'd say the biggest problem is the lack of government hiring. There is nothing, no state attorney, no attorney general, no public defender, no prosecution...nothing. No big firm jobs. Small firms (understandably) don't want to take on a newly minted JD and have to take 2 years to train him when they can get a guy with 5+ years experience for the same pay rate.

Anyway, that's the situation at my school in hard numbers, as well as my own personal anecdote. Draw whatever conclusions from this you will.

I don't see how career services is going to swing this one come USNWR reporting time. It'll be like, "70% business and other".....

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Caveat: I wanted to make this not anonymous but I couldn't because I would be outing so many people that it would not be great for me. Not sure if any of them read this site but if any one of them did, they would certainly know who was giving out their info. But this is a legit anecdote from about 5% of the class of 2012 at GULC, with varied grades and other law school activities.

Student 1: Top third, Ivy undergrad, summer RA with a prof after 1L, secondary journal = SA at Magic Circle firm in London from OCI.

Student 2: Top third, state undergrad, mock trial, no journal, 1L summer at boutique lit. firm in DC = nothing from OCI, still looking.

Student 3: Top third, main journal, 1L summer with AUSA in NYC, ivy undergrad = V20 in orange county, CA from OCI.

Student 4: Top ten, main journal, top Liberal Arts undergrad, 1L summer at small firm in hometown (small market), prior professional writing experience = V5 in NYC from OCI.

Student 5: Above median, masters and undergrad from Ivy, 1L IP experience with non-profit, clinic and writing fellow, secondary journal = IP boutique in DC from OCI.

Student 6: Top ten (probably more like top 1, but no way to know for sure), ivy undergrad, 10 years work experience in unrelated field, 1L summer with employment union, secondary journal = nothing from OCI, working with a legal aid non-profit.

Student 7: Top third, main journal, clinic, not sure about undergrad or 1L summer = skipped OCI, took public defender job in DC.

Student 8: Above median, but barely, basic undergrad, secondary journal, prior high-level work experience in state government, 1L summer with federal agency in DC, big connections in home market = OCI offer from politically connected firm in home state.

Student 9: Above median, top non-ivy undergrad, masters from Ivy, secondary journal, clinic, 1L summer with small firm in MD = top firm in Boston from OCI.

Student 10: Top third, secondary journal, top non-ivy undergrad, 1L summer with federal judge in NY = V5 NYC from OCI.

Student 11: Above median, state undergrad, prior state government experience, split 1L summer with judge and DA office in home state, secondary journal, moot court = nothing from OCI, small firm in DC from symplicity.

Student 12: Median, performing arts undergrad, secondary journal, 1L AUSA in Cali, urm, prior big law paralegal = V10 in NYC.

Student 13: Median (maybe below), state undergrad, urm, secondary journal, 1L summer with federal judge in hometown = nothing from OCI, still looking.

Student 14: Median (maybe below), state undergrad, 1L summer with environmental non-profit = nothing from OCI, working with a different environmental non-profit.

Student 15: Top third, secondary journal, Ivy undergrad, not sure about 1L summer = DOJ SLIP Antitrust, field office in midwest.

Student 16: median, secondary journal, top state undergrad, prior work experience in unrelated field, 1L summer unknown = nothing from OCI, small firm from secondary recruiting program.

Student 17: top ten, main journal, state undergrad, moot court, 1L summer with biglaw DC, prior IT experience = V5 NYC from OCI

Student 18: top third, main journal, ivy undergrad, 1L summer unknown = V20 NYC

Student 19: median, state undergrad, secondary journal, 1L summer with DA in home state = nothing from OCI, still looking.

Student 20: median, top non-ivy undergrad, international internship (traveling) during 1L summer, not sure about journal = Magic Circle firm in London from OCI.

Student 21: median, ivy undergrad, peace corps, secondary journal, 1L on the Hill = nothing from OCI, biglaw from symplicity.

Student 22: above median, state undergrad, secondary journal, urm, 1L summer unknown = nothing from OCI, still looking.

I know of a dozen or so others near median or top third with nothing from OCI and still looking, but I don't know enough about them to make it useful. Also know a handful of others with strong grades, above top third, and various work experience that got something either out of OCI or after. Official numbers from OCI have not been released but after speaking with the dean of OCS a few weeks ago, I was told 30-40% got something from OCI, which includes the government interviewing program. As of that time, half of the class had not reported back as having found work for the summer.

As for me: slightly above median (3.3ish), no journal, moot court, clinic, prior work experience in small law firm as a paralegal, 1L summer with a federal court in DC = nothing from OCI, either biglaw or government, got a job with a federal agency (unpaid) by cold resume sends. Boosted gpa from last semester, and if I can repeat the same this semester, I will easily be at a 3.7 and in the top ten, hoping to get a federal clerkship and try again to get biglaw.


And hao people SCREAMED when I said that GULC was getting pwnd!

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:47 pm

SteelReserve wrote:Okay OP, I will bite; you asked for whatever our situation is and here's mine:

I am a 3L at a T50-100 school in the top 15% with Law Review, internships, and law firm experience during my law school career.

I currently have a state level trial court clerkship lined up. I am looking forward to it and I plan on practicing in the state of my clerkship so i HOPE this will work out for me. I'm not naive enough to deny that I may not get a job in law after my clerkship ends, though I do hope I will and I plan on gunning hard for one.

As for the REST of my class, I can safely and confidently say that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80-90% of my graduating class does NOT have a JD-required and/or law job lined up. I can't speak for people who are going back to previous non-law careers or who plan on working in retail/etc, I'm just listing the percentage of people who have law-related jobs, and I estimate that to be around 10%...20% is probably far too generous.

Note that the 10% with legal jobs INCLUDES one-year clerkships. If you wanted to know how many people in my class have big firm jobs, I can count the number on 2 hands.

I'd say the biggest problem is the lack of government hiring. There is nothing, no state attorney, no attorney general, no public defender, no prosecution...nothing. No big firm jobs. Small firms (understandably) don't want to take on a newly minted JD and have to take 2 years to train him when they can get a guy with 5+ years experience for the same pay rate.

Anyway, that's the situation at my school in hard numbers, as well as my own personal anecdote. Draw whatever conclusions from this you will.


I also have to say that, while the majority of the things said on here do not get to me, this was pretty unnerving, especially since it was posted by an "old-timer."

I knew when I started out that biglaw wasn't going to be there and that I might not want it anyway. However, I was fully counting on IBR for a gov. position. I hate that states are going through budget crises. I guess this is how you that went in looking for biglaw felt when you signed up for a T14 and felt like you'd be safe at median..... :wink:
Last edited by A'nold on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby SteelReserve » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:51 pm

I don't see how career services is going to swing this one come USNWR reporting time. It'll be like, "70% business and other".....


Good point, but you know full well they'll find a way just like all the other T50-100s on the coasts. I'm not a statistics guy but basically a large number of students won't report their employment status, so even with the disclaimer of only 80% reporting the statistics look a whole lot better just by that.

But the real key is they will put anyone who is working as a waiter, in retail, telemrketing, or started their own non-law business as "business". Anyone working for 10$ an hour in road maintenance for the DMV will count towards "government". Anyone working as a secretary at a law firm will be "private practice". There's always the saving but increasingly rare grace of part-time doc review which will go in "business" or "private practice".

I won't derail the thread with all that stuff, I just wanted to earnestly respond to OP's question.

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SteelReserve
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby SteelReserve » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:56 pm

I also have to say that, while the majority of the things said on here do not get to me, this was pretty unnerving, especially since it was posted by an "old-timer."

I knew when I started out that biglaw wasn't going to be there and that I might not want it anyway. However, I was fully counting on IBR for a gov. position. I hate that states are going through budget crises. I guess this is how you that went in looking for biglaw feel when you signed up for a T14 and felt like you'd be safe at median..... :wink:


"Old timer" haha, but true. That's why I decided not to post anonymously even though I wanted to as I don't like disclosing personal info; because I've been on the board awhile (but don't post much) and I just want to tell it straight and honest without hiding behind anonymity.

I too would have loved to be a government attorney in the state's attorney/general's office, just 5 years ago the state clerkship would have made me a shoe-in. Unfortunately in my state and most states and coasts, that ship sailed a couple years ago.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:02 pm

SteelReserve wrote:
I also have to say that, while the majority of the things said on here do not get to me, this was pretty unnerving, especially since it was posted by an "old-timer."

I knew when I started out that biglaw wasn't going to be there and that I might not want it anyway. However, I was fully counting on IBR for a gov. position. I hate that states are going through budget crises. I guess this is how you that went in looking for biglaw feel when you signed up for a T14 and felt like you'd be safe at median..... :wink:


"Old timer" haha, but true. That's why I decided not to post anonymously even though I wanted to as I don't like disclosing personal info; because I've been on the board awhile (but don't post much) and I just want to tell it straight and honest without hiding behind anonymity.

I too would have loved to be a government attorney in the state's attorney/general's office, just 5 years ago the state clerkship would have made me a shoe-in. Unfortunately in my state and most states and coasts, that ship sailed a couple years ago.


I've decided to put my efforts towards securing a clerkship as well. I figure it can only help, give me a year to get my footing, and maybe help me to build enough contacts where I'll have some options upon the end of the clerkship.

I do think that more than ever we need to be networking DURING our clerkships right from the start. I think that is a much more practical route than trying to get a job through networking while in school. An employer would likely feel much more comfortable hiring a clerk that he likes than some law student that he knows is just trying to hit him up for a job. I do wonder how much networking can be done for the public sector though.......

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:17 pm

Veyron wrote:And hao people SCREAMED when I said that GULC was getting pwnd!

It was more the way you said it, IIRC. The obviously falsified descriptions of GULC students wandering around with dazed, beaten looks in their eyes, etc. etc.

What sort of experience do you have in litigation? It sounds like it's quite extensive if you're so confident of the personality required.
Last edited by pasteurizedmilk on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:18 pm

This is to the GULC student who posted all the data points complete with people's UG backgrounds: I concur that UG matters in legal hiring. Does it matter more than grades? Nope. Is it going to be a tiebreaker, or possibly even a dealbreaker, when people have limited WE, or WE completely irrelevant to the legal profession? In my experience, this has often been the case.

I can't give you more than anecdotal information either, but the people I know who attended Ivies or top LACs usually pulled above their class ranks at OCI. Of course, there was often a correlation between top UG and possession of the type of work experience students from such a place could get, which would then make them more attractive to big law firms, but even among straight to LS people, I noticed it.

I am not saying my OCI issues stemmed from my unusual choice of background, but it certainly led to difficult questions about why I wanted to be here. In the end, I knew firms would only be interested if they could market my background to clients. This niche is a big one here in my city, obviously, but it's going to mean that a firm that has mostly large investment banks as clients is not going to hire me, even if the interviewer likes me as a person and thinks my grades suffice. I beat myself up over it because I thought it was my fault. Ironically, public interest employers were more willing to listen, because I could demonstrate genuine interest by volunteering a ton. They are usually much more likely to dig down on whether the applicant truly cares or is just doing PI as a fallback option. I didn't have to BS, because it meant much more to me.

The good news is that my exact challenges will be rare, but people who attended state UGs may face uphill battles with certain employers, and that is something you should know about. When dealing with the prestige-obsessed, grades still speak loudly, but you also might learn you don't really want to deal with the prestige-obsessed.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:20 pm

IME UG doesn't matter unless you attended HYP or equivalent.

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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:26 pm

pasteurizedmilk wrote:IME UG doesn't matter unless you attended HYP or equivalent.


At my school, people at other top UGs (but not HYP) still outperformed those from no-name UGs. Biggest bump for the very top UG schools, but it wasn't only about them. I do think it might also have had to do with the access those schools provided to things like V10 paralegal jobs post graduation, etc. There are enough variables here that a clean, exact comparison can't be made-- it's just something to note.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:28 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
pasteurizedmilk wrote:IME UG doesn't matter unless you attended HYP or equivalent.


At my school, people at other top UGs (but not HYP) still outperformed those from no-name UGs. Biggest bump for the very top UG schools, but it wasn't only about them. I do think it might also have had to do with the access those schools provided to things like V10 paralegal jobs post graduation, etc.

Interesting. I wonder if there's any hard data out there about this. Anecdotally, I know of a few people who went to TTT UGs and killed OCI.




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