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Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:19 am
by Anonymous User
Anyone have an updated list?

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:14 am
by Anonymous User
I'd actually like to know this as well . . .

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:29 am
by Anonymous User
COA judges who have been known to hire off plan (probably an incomplete list):

2d Cir: Cabranes
3d Cir: Ambro, Fisher, Van Antwerpen
4th Cir. King, Niemeyer, Shedd, Wilkinson, Williams
5th Cir: Davis, Barksdale, Benavides, Smith, Southwick, Garwood, Wiener (rumored)
6th Cir: Merritt, Batchelder (rumored)
7th Cir: Posner
9th Cir: Ikuta, Kozinski, Reinhardt, Tallman
10th Cir: Lucero, Gorsuch, Henry, Kelly, Tymkovich, Baldock, Ebel
11th Cir: Dubina, Pryor, Cox, Tjoflat, Carnes

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:30 am
by bbermud
Anonymous User wrote:COA judges who have been known to hire off plan (probably an incomplete list):

2d Cir: Cabranes
3d Cir: Ambro, Fisher, Van Antwerpen
4th Cir. King, Niemeyer, Shedd, Wilkinson, Williams
5th Cir: Davis, Barksdale, Benavides, Smith, Southwick, Garwood, Wiener (rumored)
6th Cir: Merritt, Batchelder (rumored)
7th Cir: Posner
9th Cir: Ikuta, Kozinski, Reinhardt, Tallman
10th Cir: Lucero, Gorsuch, Henry, Kelly, Tymkovich, Baldock, Ebel
11th Cir: Dubina, Pryor, Cox, Tjoflat, Carnes



what does off-plan mean?

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:58 pm
by Unitas
bbermud wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:COA judges who have been known to hire off plan (probably an incomplete list):

2d Cir: Cabranes
3d Cir: Ambro, Fisher, Van Antwerpen
4th Cir. King, Niemeyer, Shedd, Wilkinson, Williams
5th Cir: Davis, Barksdale, Benavides, Smith, Southwick, Garwood, Wiener (rumored)
6th Cir: Merritt, Batchelder (rumored)
7th Cir: Posner
9th Cir: Ikuta, Kozinski, Reinhardt, Tallman
10th Cir: Lucero, Gorsuch, Henry, Kelly, Tymkovich, Baldock, Ebel
11th Cir: Dubina, Pryor, Cox, Tjoflat, Carnes



what does off-plan mean?


The judges that don't use the system the law schools agree too for when and how to apply for clerkships. Sometimes they hire outright before the time to apply starts or set it up to where they know who they are going to hire in advance, so by the time the plan starts they don't care about applications..

The plan, from what I understand, was designed to stem judges from hiring sooner and sooner for after graduation clerks. Now, however, students who are versed in the ways are still applying before the plan and just ignoring the school requirements....

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:25 pm
by Anonymous User
bump

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:30 pm
by Gideon Strumpet
Based on how the last cycle worked out, you'd get a lot shorter list if you just ask for the on-plan judges. The plan basically went out the window with the 2011 cycle; your baseline assumption now should be that everyone is off-plan, unless they say otherwise. (And even if they do say otherwise, you should probably still ask around; just hope you have good enough connections through professors and clerkship advisors who know the judges you want, to get someone who knows their actual plans).

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:17 pm
by Renzo
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Gideon Strumpet wrote:Based on how the last cycle worked out, you'd get a lot shorter list if you just ask for the on-plan judges. The plan basically went out the window with the 2011 cycle; your baseline assumption now should be that everyone is off-plan, unless they say otherwise. (And even if they do say otherwise, you should probably still ask around; just hope you have good enough connections through professors and clerkship advisors who know the judges you want, to get someone who knows their actual plans).

I think this is right. There are some exceptions, but at the COA level the norm now seems to be off-plan rather than on. District court hiring is different, and still seems to largely be on plan as far as I can tell.


Outside of the 10th Cir, where even the district courts have bailed on the plan.

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 1:32 am
by iagolives
Is it more risky, do we think, to send an app early to a judge that is committed to the plan or to wait for the plan deadline and risk missing a spot? (I feel like this was answered in the general clerkship thread but I couldn't find it.)

Also, won't be pretty funny in a sad way if these apocalypse people are, in fact, right and we spent our last days on earth worrying about applications? lol.

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 10:52 am
by iagolives
Thanks!

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
iagolives wrote:Is it more risky, do we think, to send an app early to a judge that is committed to the plan or to wait for the plan deadline and risk missing a spot? (I feel like this was answered in the general clerkship thread but I couldn't find it.)

Also, won't be pretty funny in a sad way if these apocalypse people are, in fact, right and we spent our last days on earth worrying about applications? lol.

To me, the greater risk is in waiting. I look at it this way: if you apply early to a judge, not knowing whether s/he moves on or off-plan, there is a strong chance that s/he moves off-plan. And, if s/he does not, there is still a strong chance that the judge will just leave your app in a pile somewhere, or toss it. Nothing lost there. There is only a small chance that the judge will be affirmatively put off by the untimely app and then ding you for it. I have only ever heard of this happening twice.

By contrast, if you wait to apply to a judge and the judge fills before the plan, you have a literally 0% shot at getting one of his/her clerkship slots. Given the number of judges moving on apps right now -- including many formerly on-plan judges -- and the number who will begin to move later this summer, simple math dictates that you would build up a lot of strikeouts before ever getting to the plate if you waited for September.

The best approach, IMO, is to build a list of the judges you want to apply to and then try to find out which ones follow the plan, assuming that all do not. You can learn what judges do by looking at their OSCAR page, which often, but not always indicates how the judge handles applications. Or, you could call the judges' chambers to ask anonymously. Or, if you have a question about a small number of circuit judges, you could ask me, or other 3Ls/grads you know (I would avoid sending anyone a long list and asking them to do the heavy investigating for you).

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 2:19 pm
by Gideon Strumpet
iagolives wrote:Is it more risky, do we think, to send an app early to a judge that is committed to the plan or to wait for the plan deadline and risk missing a spot?

I would say the greater risk is in waiting. I know of some people who applied to judges who still hire on-plan (a handful even ignore the rush and hire well after the plan period, believe it or not). I did not hear about any judges taking offense at an early application. One person I know of called one chambers to ask if the judge would be interviewing in the summer, and the judge said no, but offered a short informational interview anyway. When they met, the judge just said up front, "So you know, I'm happy to talk with you, but this is not an interview."

That said; you need to be acutely aware of making sure all contacts with chambers are appropriate, timely, informed, and polite. Know what the judges say on their OSCAR profiles about contacting chambers and read anything your school database has from past candidates who interviewed or worked with the judge. DO NOT come off as a pest, or someone who can't read. Talk to the clerkships person in your school's career services about early contacts with chambers if you're unsure.

The best venue for directing early apps will always be through someone you have a solid connection with at your school, who knows a judge personally, and who can tell you the judge's hiring preferences (or even pick up the phone and just say "hey, you should interview this person, she's great"). Obviously you won't know professors who know every judge, if you're applying broadly. But use what contacts you do have to your best advantage.

Failing a professor or advisor, former clerks from your school also will often be happy to talk to you about how the chambers deals with applications; be very, very, very nice and grateful to them if they do agree to share their time and advice. And hope your school has a database of these alums which they share with clerkship candidates (if they do not, whoever is running your clerkships program is a worthless slug and should be fired).

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 10:21 am
by Green Crayons
So when is the appropriate time frame to send in material to an off-plan judge?

Re: Off-Plan Judges

Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:55 am
by Green Crayons
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Green Crayons wrote:So when is the appropriate time frame to send in material to an off-plan judge?

Varies by judge. Some are already done hiring, others are interviewing and looking at apps now, and still others will be doing so later this summer. Precisely when a judge starts to move is valuable information, which is why you won't readily find it online. Faculty, clerkship advisors, 3Ls, alumni, and people at your SA firm should be able to help you out.

Makes sense. Thanks.