What are t-20-30 grads doing?

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SHANbangs
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What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby SHANbangs » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:50 pm

What are t-20-30 grads/2Ls/3Ls doing with their careers? Big law? Shit law? How shitty is it? And if you feel you are doing well career-wise (however you define it, though a mountain of unpayable debt does not qualify), can you give any advice to incoming t-20-30 1Ls on how to maximize their career potential (other than pwning their grades)?

Sup Kid
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Sup Kid » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:35 pm

I think biglaw varies widely from school to school. Top-1/3 of the class at a school like GW or Fordham are having significantly better chances of getting biglaw than a school like Emory. In general though, top 10% or 15% of these schools are generally getting biglaw, while everyone else is just fighting for anything like the rest of the 40,000 law students that are graduating each year. Basically ITE, grades are everything, so study hard 1L year.

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20160810
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby 20160810 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:17 pm

Sup Kid wrote:I think biglaw varies widely from school to school. Top-1/3 of the class at a school like GW or Fordham are having significantly better chances of getting biglaw than a school like Emory. In general though, top 10% or 15% of these schools are generally getting biglaw, while everyone else is just fighting for anything like the rest of the 40,000 law students that are graduating each year. Basically ITE, grades are everything, so study hard 1L year.

Top 1/3 isn't getting biglaw at Fordham without IP. Nor is Fordham ranked 20-30 at present.

To OP: I have good (but not top-10%) grades at a lower T30, and will be working for a mid-sized firm in CA doing lit.

MrAnon
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:18 pm

I know quite a few unemployed, quite a few working in internships with parents supporting them and paying their loans (these people are 25-30 years old), know more unemployed than I know in midlaw, know as many small law as I know big law.

Aggiegrad2011
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Aggiegrad2011 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:19 pm

SBL wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:To OP: I have good (but not top-10%) grades at a lower T30, and will be working for a mid-sized firm in CA doing lit.


A T30 that became a T30 because of shady gaming of the USNWR ranking system ;) I keed, I keed...

When you say, "doing lit", I assume you mean literature review (or something?) - What does a position like that pay, ball-park?

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rman1201
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby rman1201 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:21 pm

Aggiegrad2011 wrote:
SBL wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:To OP: I have good (but not top-10%) grades at a lower T30, and will be working for a mid-sized firm in CA doing lit.


A T30 that became a T30 because of shady gaming of the USNWR ranking system ;) I keed, I keed...

When you say, "doing lit", I assume you mean literature review (or something?) - What does a position like that pay, ball-park?


I think he meant litigation..

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bk1
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:22 pm

SBL wrote:Nor is Fordham ranked 20-30 at present.


Oh come now. It is pretty reasonable to infer that OP meant "strong regional schools" with the "T20-30" comment.

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20160810
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby 20160810 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:25 pm

bk1 wrote:
SBL wrote:Nor is Fordham ranked 20-30 at present.


Oh come now. It is pretty reasonable to infer that OP meant "strong regional schools" with the "T20-30" comment.

This is a forum where people who want to work in DC choose WUSTL over GW because it's "T19." I never assume anyone is being less than retardedly literal when discussing USNWR rankings. But I hope no rational people would infer that I'm suggesting Fordham is any worse than any of the schools currently ranked 20-30.

And yes, "lit" refers to litigation, not document review.

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bk1
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:29 pm

SBL wrote:This is a forum where people who want to work in DC choose WUSTL over GW because it's "T19." I never assume anyone is being less than retardedly literal when discussing USNWR rankings. But I hope no rational people would infer that I'm suggesting Fordham is any worse than any of the schools currently ranked 20-30.


See, I don't think it makes sense to assume that both people are being insanely literal while they also are not inferring that from your statement. Though I do get your point.

Aggiegrad2011
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Aggiegrad2011 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:33 pm

SBL wrote:
bk1 wrote:
SBL wrote:And yes, "lit" refers to litigation, not document review.


Ah, so all hope is not abandoned! Very nice :)

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Blindmelon
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:44 pm

SBL wrote:This is a forum where people who want to work in DC choose WUSTL over GW because it's "T19."


Seriously? Thats the silliest thing I've heard in a while.

And students at those schools vary insanely on what they end up doing.
I'm a 2L at BU and I know a few people with V5 offers and awesome DC gov jobs, and some people who may very well end up unpaid volunteering anywhere someone will take them. All in all, top of the class at these schools tend to do extremely well, median and lower not so much.

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androstan
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby androstan » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:54 pm

What a wonderful system. Curved grading that insures half of entering students can pay tuition for 3 years but will be lucky to ever find gainful employment.

My wife is finishing up pharmacy school in May. Nothing was graded on a mandatory curve but plenty of people still manage to do poorly. At least with them we can feel confident they just didn't know the material (or they did other stupid things that reflect poorly on their ability to be a competent professional i.e. late night drinking before exam). You either know the subject matter, prepare adequately, take things seriously and get good grades or you don't.

Not in LS. You can know the subject matter extraordinarily well, but as long some argument can be made for why the grader likes 50 other students' responses better than yours, you're SOL.

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HelltotheNo
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby HelltotheNo » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:59 pm

MrAnon wrote:I know quite a few unemployed, quite a few working in internships with parents supporting them and paying their loans (these people are 25-30 years old), know more unemployed than I know in midlaw, know as many small law as I know big law.



I call bullshit on this.

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Blindmelon
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:02 pm

androstan wrote:What a wonderful system. Curved grading that insures half of entering students can pay tuition for 3 years but will be lucky to ever find gainful employment.

My wife is finishing up pharmacy school in May. Nothing was graded on a mandatory curve but plenty of people still manage to do poorly. At least with them we can feel confident they just didn't know the material (or they did other stupid things that reflect poorly on their ability to be a competent professional i.e. late night drinking before exam). You either know the subject matter, prepare adequately, take things seriously and get good grades or you don't.

Not in LS. You can know the subject matter extraordinarily well, but as long some argument can be made for why the grader likes 50 other students' responses better than yours, you're SOL.


Thats true to an extent. But grades aren't always super arbitrary, and they aren't the only factor in hiring (although a big one). It isn't super hard to be a median student.

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A'nold
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby A'nold » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:09 pm

androstan wrote:What a wonderful system. Curved grading that insures half of entering students can pay tuition for 3 years but will be lucky to ever find gainful employment.

My wife is finishing up pharmacy school in May. Nothing was graded on a mandatory curve but plenty of people still manage to do poorly. At least with them we can feel confident they just didn't know the material (or they did other stupid things that reflect poorly on their ability to be a competent professional i.e. late night drinking before exam). You either know the subject matter, prepare adequately, take things seriously and get good grades or you don't.

Not in LS. You can know the subject matter extraordinarily well, but as long some argument can be made for why the grader likes 50 other students' responses better than yours, you're SOL.

Knowing the law and being able to apply it well are two different things. We are in law school to learn a thought process, not to memorize laws.

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20160810
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby 20160810 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:40 pm

androstan wrote:What a wonderful system. Curved grading that insures half of entering students can pay tuition for 3 years but will be lucky to ever find gainful employment.

My wife is finishing up pharmacy school in May. Nothing was graded on a mandatory curve but plenty of people still manage to do poorly. At least with them we can feel confident they just didn't know the material (or they did other stupid things that reflect poorly on their ability to be a competent professional i.e. late night drinking before exam). You either know the subject matter, prepare adequately, take things seriously and get good grades or you don't.

Not in LS. You can know the subject matter extraordinarily well, but as long some argument can be made for why the grader likes 50 other students' responses better than yours, you're SOL.

Or you could not borrow $200,000 without learning the risks beforehand.

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A'nold
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby A'nold » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:49 pm

SBL wrote:
androstan wrote:What a wonderful system. Curved grading that insures half of entering students can pay tuition for 3 years but will be lucky to ever find gainful employment.

My wife is finishing up pharmacy school in May. Nothing was graded on a mandatory curve but plenty of people still manage to do poorly. At least with them we can feel confident they just didn't know the material (or they did other stupid things that reflect poorly on their ability to be a competent professional i.e. late night drinking before exam). You either know the subject matter, prepare adequately, take things seriously and get good grades or you don't.

Not in LS. You can know the subject matter extraordinarily well, but as long some argument can be made for why the grader likes 50 other students' responses better than yours, you're SOL.

Or you could not borrow $200,000 without learning the risks beforehand.


Man SBL, why are we always there to lay down the law around here? 8)

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Blindmelon
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:10 pm

HelltotheNo wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I know quite a few unemployed, quite a few working in internships with parents supporting them and paying their loans (these people are 25-30 years old), know more unemployed than I know in midlaw, know as many small law as I know big law.



I call bullshit on this.


Depends on the school. While outside of the "T14" (19 and on) rankings don't matter much, there are stronger schools in that band, e.g., BC, BU, GW, Fordham, ND, UIUC.

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20160810
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby 20160810 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:35 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
HelltotheNo wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I know quite a few unemployed, quite a few working in internships with parents supporting them and paying their loans (these people are 25-30 years old), know more unemployed than I know in midlaw, know as many small law as I know big law.



I call bullshit on this.


Depends on the school. While outside of the "T14" (19 and on) rankings don't matter much, there are stronger schools in that band, e.g., BC, BU, GW, Fordham, ND, UIUC.

This is true. I picked UCD over BU and GW because I wanted to work in SF. While I ended up lucking out, I barely got a job despite being well ranked. From everything I've heard, with the same rank at BU/GW I would have been fine, assuming I was willing to work on the East Coast.

Sandro
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Sandro » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:14 am

I'm interested in this. All the schools I'm looking at are t19(lol)-t30 and come with varying degrees of cost. While I acknowledge the outlook is grim right now I'm having a hard time believing the notion on TLS that outside of the top 15% at these schools you are screwed and would be better off working at burger king for the rest of your life - that in general the remaining 85% of the class is just wallowing in self pity and resigned to unemployment/unpaid/doc review.

ogurty
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby ogurty » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:16 am

androstan wrote:What a wonderful system. Curved grading that insures half of entering students can pay tuition for 3 years but will be lucky to ever find gainful employment.

My wife is finishing up pharmacy school in May. Nothing was graded on a mandatory curve but plenty of people still manage to do poorly. At least with them we can feel confident they just didn't know the material (or they did other stupid things that reflect poorly on their ability to be a competent professional i.e. late night drinking before exam). You either know the subject matter, prepare adequately, take things seriously and get good grades or you don't.

Not in LS. You can know the subject matter extraordinarily well, but as long some argument can be made for why the grader likes 50 other students' responses better than yours, you're SOL.


Step 1: abolish curve
Step 2: everyone gets a 4.0
Step 3: everyone gets biglaw!

Why didn't anyone think of this before??

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20160810
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby 20160810 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:41 am

Sandro wrote:I'm interested in this. All the schools I'm looking at are t19(lol)-t30 and come with varying degrees of cost. While I acknowledge the outlook is grim right now I'm having a hard time believing the notion on TLS that outside of the top 15% at these schools you are screwed and would be better off working at burger king for the rest of your life - that in general the remaining 85% of the class is just wallowing in self pity and resigned to unemployment/unpaid/doc review.

No, but outside the top third you're pretty screwed if you're going $200,000 into debt for a JD from one of these schools, and this is coming from a guy who goes to (and loves) one such school. There are a lot of good options for folks at T30s, but go into this shit eyes open.

Arelikefoxes
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Arelikefoxes » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:53 am

ogurty wrote:Step 1: abolish curve
Step 2: everyone gets a 4.0
Step 3: everyone gets biglaw!

Why didn't anyone think of this before??


Awesome.

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androstan
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby androstan » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:02 am

ogurty wrote:
androstan wrote:What a wonderful system. Curved grading that insures half of entering students can pay tuition for 3 years but will be lucky to ever find gainful employment.

My wife is finishing up pharmacy school in May. Nothing was graded on a mandatory curve but plenty of people still manage to do poorly. At least with them we can feel confident they just didn't know the material (or they did other stupid things that reflect poorly on their ability to be a competent professional i.e. late night drinking before exam). You either know the subject matter, prepare adequately, take things seriously and get good grades or you don't.

Not in LS. You can know the subject matter extraordinarily well, but as long some argument can be made for why the grader likes 50 other students' responses better than yours, you're SOL.


Step 1: abolish curve
Step 2: everyone gets a 4.0 who earns it
Step 3: everyone gets biglaw! who earns it

Why didn't anyone think of this before??


Other grad programs don't need a curve to prevent everyone from getting a 4.0.

Anonymous User
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Re: What are t-20-30 grads doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:13 am

I'm really curious about this as well. I'm going to W&M and will probably be only taking about 5-8k per year in loans due to scholarship and some savings, but I'm horrified of what I'm going into.




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