Work / Life balance in secondary markets

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:08 pm

bbermud wrote:
SBL wrote:
lisjjen wrote:Define secondary markets? Is everything but LA and NY a secondary market? Would Houston and DFW or Seattle be considered a secondary market?

What would Boise be? A tertiary market?

In the strictest sense, NYC and DC are the "primary markets." To this, people often add Chicago, LA, SF, Boston, Houston and DFW because there are a lot of firms there and the biggest among them tend to pay market. When people define "secondary markets" as markets with firms that don't pay 160, they're usually talking about places like ATL, Phoenix, San Antonio, Florida, San Diego, Sacramento, Seattle, etc.


I really want to move to Chicago post graduation and have not decided if Biglaw is for me yet. If didn't go Biglaw in Chicago, what sort or salary could I command granted I am not an idiot.

Note: I speak in general terms, not exceptions (because I know someone is going to say "well I know someone you makes xxx and isn't working in BIGLaw")

If you're doing private work, there really is a huge gap between BIGLaw and smaller firms - a bimodal distribution in LS salaries.

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I really wish I could find an explanation that really breaks down the numbers, I had a link but apparently lost it. Will post it if/when I find it.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby paulinaporizkova » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:08 pm

bbermud wrote:
I'm in at Iowa so most likely there due to in state tuition. Waiting on 6 other schools. So for argument's sake, let's just say Iowa.


ok, what will your class rank be? this question relies heavily on things that have yet to be determined. in general, i've heard midlaw salaries can be anywhere from 70-100k, but i know nothing about market specifics, and i'm sure there are many of them

bbermud
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby bbermud » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:11 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:
bbermud wrote:
SBL wrote:
lisjjen wrote:Define secondary markets? Is everything but LA and NY a secondary market? Would Houston and DFW or Seattle be considered a secondary market?

What would Boise be? A tertiary market?

In the strictest sense, NYC and DC are the "primary markets." To this, people often add Chicago, LA, SF, Boston, Houston and DFW because there are a lot of firms there and the biggest among them tend to pay market. When people define "secondary markets" as markets with firms that don't pay 160, they're usually talking about places like ATL, Phoenix, San Antonio, Florida, San Diego, Sacramento, Seattle, etc.


I really want to move to Chicago post graduation and have not decided if Biglaw is for me yet. If didn't go Biglaw in Chicago, what sort or salary could I command granted I am not an idiot.

Note: I speak in general terms, not exceptions (because I know someone is going to say "well I know someone you makes xxx and isn't working in BIGLaw")

If you're doing private work, there really is a huge gap between BIGLaw and smaller firms - a bimodal distribution in LS salaries.

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I really wish I could find an explanation that really breaks down the numbers, I had a link but apparently lost it. Will post it if/when I find it.



thanks!

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fatduck
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby fatduck » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:12 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:
bbermud wrote:
SBL wrote:
lisjjen wrote:Define secondary markets? Is everything but LA and NY a secondary market? Would Houston and DFW or Seattle be considered a secondary market?

What would Boise be? A tertiary market?

In the strictest sense, NYC and DC are the "primary markets." To this, people often add Chicago, LA, SF, Boston, Houston and DFW because there are a lot of firms there and the biggest among them tend to pay market. When people define "secondary markets" as markets with firms that don't pay 160, they're usually talking about places like ATL, Phoenix, San Antonio, Florida, San Diego, Sacramento, Seattle, etc.


I really want to move to Chicago post graduation and have not decided if Biglaw is for me yet. If didn't go Biglaw in Chicago, what sort or salary could I command granted I am not an idiot.

Note: I speak in general terms, not exceptions (because I know someone is going to say "well I know someone you makes xxx and isn't working in BIGLaw")

If you're doing private work, there really is a huge gap between BIGLaw and smaller firms - a bimodal distribution in LS salaries.

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I really wish I could find an explanation that really breaks down the numbers, I had a link but apparently lost it. Will post it if/when I find it.


Code: Select all

155-165: 11.18%
90-150: 16.76%
65-90: 13.41%
35-65: 58.67%


something like this?

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20160810
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby 20160810 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:15 pm

UtahPhi wrote: Where does Salt Lake rank in this sense.

It doesn't.

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fatduck
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby fatduck » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:20 pm

UtahPhi wrote:Jumping onto this. Where does Salt Lake rank in this sense. Would it qualify as a secondary, or more of tertiary market like the potato factory in Boise?


Salt Lake is more of a latter-day market.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby paulinaporizkova » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:25 pm

fatduck wrote:
UtahPhi wrote:Jumping onto this. Where does Salt Lake rank in this sense. Would it qualify as a secondary, or more of tertiary market like the potato factory in Boise?


Salt Lake is more of a latter-day market.


Give yourself a pat on the back for that one

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A'nold
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby A'nold » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:26 pm

fatduck wrote:
UtahPhi wrote:Jumping onto this. Where does Salt Lake rank in this sense. Would it qualify as a secondary, or more of tertiary market like the potato factory in Boise?


Salt Lake is more of a latter-day market.

Da do do ching!

duckmoney
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby duckmoney » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:28 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:Note: I speak in general terms, not exceptions (because I know someone is going to say "well I know someone you makes xxx and isn't working in BIGLaw")

If you're doing private work, there really is a huge gap between BIGLaw and smaller firms - a bimodal distribution in LS salaries.

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I really wish I could find an explanation that really breaks down the numbers, I had a link but apparently lost it. Will post it if/when I find it.


Just doing a basic count, it looks like about 20% of new lawyers work in firms that pay between $90 and $160k - in other words, these secondary market firms we're talking about. That's not a whole lot, but it's still quite a few people, especially when you consider that a full 50% of lawyers are coming from T3 and T4 schools, and anyone at a T1 would be picked for these jobs above anyone who wasn't at the tip top of their class at the lower schools.

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fatduck
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby fatduck » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:34 pm

duckmoney wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:Note: I speak in general terms, not exceptions (because I know someone is going to say "well I know someone you makes xxx and isn't working in BIGLaw")

If you're doing private work, there really is a huge gap between BIGLaw and smaller firms - a bimodal distribution in LS salaries.

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I really wish I could find an explanation that really breaks down the numbers, I had a link but apparently lost it. Will post it if/when I find it.


Just doing a basic count, it looks like about 20% of new lawyers work in firms that pay between $90 and $160k - in other words, these secondary market firms we're talking about. That's not a whole lot, but it's still quite a few people, especially when you consider that a full 50% of lawyers are coming from T3 and T4 schools, and anyone at a T1 would be picked for these jobs above anyone who wasn't at the tip top of their class at the lower schools.


i distracted everyone with my mormon joke but a couple posts up i posted the numerical breakdown of that chart

155-165: 11.18%
90-150: 16.76%
65-90: 13.41%
35-65: 58.67%

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A'nold
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby A'nold » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:37 pm

fatduck wrote:
duckmoney wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:Note: I speak in general terms, not exceptions (because I know someone is going to say "well I know someone you makes xxx and isn't working in BIGLaw")

If you're doing private work, there really is a huge gap between BIGLaw and smaller firms - a bimodal distribution in LS salaries.

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I really wish I could find an explanation that really breaks down the numbers, I had a link but apparently lost it. Will post it if/when I find it.


Just doing a basic count, it looks like about 20% of new lawyers work in firms that pay between $90 and $160k - in other words, these secondary market firms we're talking about. That's not a whole lot, but it's still quite a few people, especially when you consider that a full 50% of lawyers are coming from T3 and T4 schools, and anyone at a T1 would be picked for these jobs above anyone who wasn't at the tip top of their class at the lower schools.


i distracted everyone with my mormon joke but a couple posts up i posted the numerical breakdown of that chart

155-165: 11.18%
90-150: 16.76%
65-90: 13.41%
35-65: 58.67%

So around 41-42% make 65k or more. That's funny b/c most people on this site act like these jobs do not exist.

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moandersen
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby moandersen » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:42 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
bbermud wrote:
I'm in at Iowa so most likely there due to in state tuition. Waiting on 6 other schools. So for argument's sake, let's just say Iowa.


ok, what will your class rank be? this question relies heavily on things that have yet to be determined. in general, i've heard midlaw salaries can be anywhere from 70-100k, but i know nothing about market specifics, and i'm sure there are many of them


all i have is anecdotal evidence, but a named partner told me that his midsized firm (~60 lawyers) in Chicago starts new hires at 110. Most of the grads there are from T2, TTT, and TTTT schools fwiw.

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thesealocust
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby thesealocust » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:43 pm

A'nold wrote:
fatduck wrote:i distracted everyone with my mormon joke but a couple posts up i posted the numerical breakdown of that chart

155-165: 11.18%
90-150: 16.76%
65-90: 13.41%
35-65: 58.67%

So around 41-42% make 65k or more. That's funny b/c most people on this site act like these jobs do not exist.


They don't. The chart is BS for a few reasons.

(1) There are 45,000 law grads each year and only about 35,000 entry level legal jobs. So add a spike of 10,000 respondants at 0 / not employed in the legal sector to the left of the graph.

(2) Based on the reporting information for the graph, it accounts for only 50%ish of law school graduates. But if you multiply the percentage of the 160K hump by the total number of respondents, and compare it with other metrics for estimating big law jobs (NALP data, NLJ reports, etc.) you will see that almost every known big law job is reported. So go ahead and increase the height of that spike in the 35-65 range, because those are the jobs not being reported on the chart.

TL;DR No really mid law doesn't exist, the chart looks like it paints a grim picture but it's still rosey compared to reality.

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fatduck
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby fatduck » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:44 pm

A'nold wrote:
fatduck wrote:
duckmoney wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:Note: I speak in general terms, not exceptions (because I know someone is going to say "well I know someone you makes xxx and isn't working in BIGLaw")

If you're doing private work, there really is a huge gap between BIGLaw and smaller firms - a bimodal distribution in LS salaries.

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I really wish I could find an explanation that really breaks down the numbers, I had a link but apparently lost it. Will post it if/when I find it.


Just doing a basic count, it looks like about 20% of new lawyers work in firms that pay between $90 and $160k - in other words, these secondary market firms we're talking about. That's not a whole lot, but it's still quite a few people, especially when you consider that a full 50% of lawyers are coming from T3 and T4 schools, and anyone at a T1 would be picked for these jobs above anyone who wasn't at the tip top of their class at the lower schools.


i distracted everyone with my mormon joke but a couple posts up i posted the numerical breakdown of that chart

155-165: 11.18%
90-150: 16.76%
65-90: 13.41%
35-65: 58.67%

So around 41-42% make 65k or more. That's funny b/c most people on this site act like these jobs do not exist.


i should have added the disclaimer that i can't really confirm those numbers other than that they pass the smell test. i quoted that from another TLSer, androstan, and i've seen it quoted a few times on TLS without anyone refuting it.

also, as with all NALP stats, keep in mind that these are self-reported salaries, and that biglaw salaries are probably overrepresented (people are more likely to report that they're making megabux than making shit)
Last edited by fatduck on Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thesealocust
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby thesealocust » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:46 pm

fatduck wrote:i should have added the disclaimer that i can't really confirm those numbers other than that they pass the smell test. i quoted that from another TLSer, androstan, and i've seen it quoted a few times on TLS without anyone refuting it.


:lol: see my reply above for my refutation

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fatduck
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby fatduck » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:46 pm

thesealocust wrote:
fatduck wrote:i should have added the disclaimer that i can't really confirm those numbers other than that they pass the smell test. i quoted that from another TLSer, androstan, and i've seen it quoted a few times on TLS without anyone refuting it.


:lol: see my reply above for my refutation


:D while you were posting that i was editing my post with the same caveat, lol

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:04 pm

x

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A'nold
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby A'nold » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:07 pm

O.k., so I get that the chart is not truly representative for 0L's as they have no idea how they are going to do grade-wise and possibly have no idea which school they will be attending (this is irt the 10k that will be unemployed). What about those are are 2L's with no employment still? Can't we get a better idea of "what we are worth" b/c there are less variables now than a general average percentage we might look at in the beginning before we take the LSAT?

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jdstl
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby jdstl » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:13 pm

I'm mostly familiar with the St. Louis market (19th largest metro area in the country, so I don't know if it's secondary or tertiary) and they tend to do starting salary of $110,000 w./ billable requirements around 1850 (don't know if those are illusory or not).

Of course the tradeoff is the profits/partner (only around 3-400,000 in St. louis firms), but the partner:associate ratios are fairly high, so I would assume one's chances of making partner are higher.

And cost of living is low low low!

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thesealocust
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Re: Work / Life balance in secondary markets

Postby thesealocust » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:15 pm

Here are sourced, hard numbers for those interested. I make my inferences and believe they are sound, but now you don't have to take my word for it (yaey):

(1) NALP Class of '09 bimodal chart based on 20K salaries [FN1]

(2) BLS predicts about 36,000 jobs for entry level attorneys [FN2]

(3) About 45,000 graduate every year [FN3] [FN4]

(4) About 5,000 get hired into "big firm" jobs every year - loosely defined as NLJ 250 plus some more not counted in the NLJ 250 (boutiques, just under 200 attorneys, etc.) [FN4]

(5) According to The Bimodal Chart(TM) bandied about all the time, roughly 25% of respondents earn a big firm 160K range salary.[FN1] A little multiplication shows that means roughly 4878.25 people reported to the NALP making a ~160K salary.

(6) Our relatively robust estimate of mid 6-figure entry level jobs is 5K (see data/source from (4) above) and because just under 5K such jobs are reported on the bimodal chart in (5). It is further reasonable to infer that these jobs are the easiest to collect info on - big firm associates work in large numbers (often dozens in one office) and can be identified / discussed much easier than others due to their concentration. This means it is very fair to say that most "big firm" salaries are already accounted for on the chart.

(7) The chart only reports salaries for about 45% of all graduates from law schools, and per (2) and (3) we have reason to believe at least 10K fail to find any kind of employment in the legal sector.

(8) The chart massively under-reports the existence of low / non-big law salaries. You could argue it's actually under-reporting mid law, but I think realistically the 35-65K "hump" should visually be much much much taller if the bimodal chart were to represent all graduates and not just ~20K respondents.

[FN1] "Note: The graph is based on 19,513 salaries." http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

[FN2] "There were 36,000 new jobs, marking a fourth straight month of improvement" (quoting a BLS report). http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... eport.html

[FN3] "Some 45,000 people graduate from law school every year." http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... chools.php

[FN4] "The average percentage of graduating classes from the top 50 schools hired by NLJ 250 firms was 30.3%. The total number of 2009 graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms from all law schools was 4,555. Law schools accredited by the American Bar Association awarded 43,588 law degrees in the 2008-2009 academic year." http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf




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