CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

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Anonymous User
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CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:22 pm

Hi, I'm not applying to any firms for 1L summer but since law firm lunch/dinner/cocktail receptions are coming up and I'm trying to attend as many as possible to get a feel for the people at different firms to bid for during 2L OCI, what range (or specific firms) should I really be focusing on? I'm just now starting to research firms and have only a very general sense of the rankings, but have also heard that ranking doesn't always correlate with competitiveness. Are any doors closed?

My first semester grades at A, A-, B+, and let's assume that I do similarly second semester to end up with an overall GPA of 3.67-ish. I'm interested in litigation but would want to be at a big firm strong in many areas just to cover all my options.

Machine Spirit
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Re: CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

Postby Machine Spirit » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:51 pm

1. As a 1L just completing your first semester, I feel as though you're a tad early in researching firms. Regardless, good initiate I suppose.

2. I don't see why "any doors [would be] closed" for you, you're worrying too much.

3. In line with the worrying too much/over-thinking part, while the general thought is that you'll typically perform in your second semester as you did in your first semester, I wouldn't necessarily count on it. Merely assuming that you're going to have a 3.67 doesn't really mean anything right now.

4. Firms surely care about grades, but that's only going to get your foot in the door. Only a certain number of firms seem to follow strict grade cutoffs, yet all firms are going to consider other factors (i.e. Law Review, Moot Court, substantive 1L summer work, general demeanor and attitude, etc.). Having just completed your first semester, you're really not in the position to be conjecturing in such a manner, given all of the variables.

I realize I haven't actually answered much for you. Oh well. I'll let a 0L give you a more direct "answer" :wink:

imchuckbass58
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Re: CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:37 pm

If you keep up that performance (big if), you would be eligible for pretty much any firm and should apply widely to the V20 (roughly speaking). Past a certain point (say, 3.6 or so) there's really little marginal results that can be driven by grades and it will depend a lot more on whether you can interview decently.

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Re: CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:03 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:If you keep up that performance (big if), you would be eligible for pretty much any firm and should apply widely to the V20 (roughly speaking). Past a certain point (say, 3.6 or so) there's really little marginal results that can be driven by grades and it will depend a lot more on whether you can interview decently.


Sorry to hijack, but is there a preference for above vs below median-ish (e.g., 3.33 vs 3.22) or will firms regard grades in this range to be similar and differentiate based on interviewing skills/work experience?

I have heard conflicting things. Some have said that it's top third, next third, last third. Others have said that there is somewhat of a line of drawn for "above median" versus below median in terms of how well people fare.

imchuckbass58
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Re: CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
imchuckbass58 wrote:If you keep up that performance (big if), you would be eligible for pretty much any firm and should apply widely to the V20 (roughly speaking). Past a certain point (say, 3.6 or so) there's really little marginal results that can be driven by grades and it will depend a lot more on whether you can interview decently.


Sorry to hijack, but is there a preference for above vs below median-ish (e.g., 3.33 vs 3.22) or will firms regard grades in this range to be similar and differentiate based on interviewing skills/work experience?

I have heard conflicting things. Some have said that it's top third, next third, last third. Others have said that there is somewhat of a line of drawn for "above median" versus below median in terms of how well people fare.


The short answer is it really depends on the firm and how big the differential is in WE and interviewing skill. Some firms have a hard cutoff somewhere in the 3.5 area (i.e., automatically throw out your transcript below that). Some have a hard cutoff in the 3.3 area. Some have lower hard cutoffs. Many do not have a hard cutoff, but obviously higher grades are better even with these firms.

As a general rule, it seems like around median, every single grade differential counts a lot. Obvious if you have a PhD in hard sciences or worked in forensic accounting before school or can charm the pants off anyone you meet that will help a lot and probably compensate somewhat for slightly lower grades, but how much depends on the firm, the interviewer, and how strong what you bring to the table is.

EDIT: The point I was trying to make about is that at 3.67 or so you are so far above any hard or even informal cutoffs that it really doesn't matter - the firm knows you have really high grades and will look at other stuff, like LR, interview skill, WE, etc.

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Veyron
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Re: CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi, I'm not applying to any firms for 1L summer but since law firm lunch/dinner/cocktail receptions are coming up and I'm trying to attend as many as possible to get a feel for the people at different firms to bid for during 2L OCI, what range (or specific firms) should I really be focusing on? I'm just now starting to research firms and have only a very general sense of the rankings, but have also heard that ranking doesn't always correlate with competitiveness. Are any doors closed?

My first semester grades at A, A-, B+, and let's assume that I do similarly second semester to end up with an overall GPA of 3.67-ish. I'm interested in litigation but would want to be at a big firm strong in many areas just to cover all my options.


I have bad news for you. You aren't getting Wachtell. Susman either. Sorry.

imchuckbass58
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Re: CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:25 pm

Veyron wrote:
I have bad news for you. You aren't getting Wachtell. Susman either. Sorry.


Not necessarily true if OP keeps it up (though certainly unlikely). I know two people who got CBs at Wachtell with lower GPAs than that. Watchtell routinely gives offers to people who are not Kent Scholars (3.8+).

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Veyron
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Re: CLS 1L with A, A-, B+

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:27 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
I have bad news for you. You aren't getting Wachtell. Susman either. Sorry.


Not necessarily true if OP keeps it up (though certainly unlikely). I know two people who got CBs at Wachtell with lower GPAs than that. Watchtell routinely gives offers to people who are not Kent Scholars (3.8+).


Yah, you are probably right. Just trying to be snarky. FWIW though, Susaman is probably the only firm which is "closed" with those grades. Maybe Bartlit B and S&C as well. Honestly, your CSO has the grade ranges of successful students, don't ask the idiots on TLS, look at that.




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