A message to 1L's about grade inflation

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A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:17 am

If your school shifts to a drastically different curve from your 1L to 2L year, make sure you take enough graded hours so you don't get screwed by the new curve.

I only took 12 total hours last semester, six of them graded. My school's curve jumped pretty drastically. I was in the top 25%, but the new grade cutoffs jumped so drastically because of the new curve that I slid all they way down to about top 40%. I calculated that even if I had gotten a 4.0 in my 6 graded hours I would still have dropped in rank because of how drastically the cutoffs shifted.

This morning my 2L firm asked me for my Fall grades. I now have to try to explain to them why my ranking has dropped. FML.

PriyaRai
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby PriyaRai » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:18 am

Kindly out your firm.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:23 am

PriyaRai wrote:Kindly out your firm.



If I out the firm, I'll be outing myself...sorry.

I'll just say that it's midlaw (nearly 100 attorneys) In a secondary market. Pays >100k<160k. Usually recruits at Hahvad, UVA, Chi, etc...I probably made it in by the skin of my teeth in the first place.
:(


To make matters worse, I really cant remember if they've ever seen my transcript to begin with. I had a really good interview, and ended up getting the job with no call back (interviewed with the managing partner & the hiring partner in the room). They may be in for a big surprise lol cuz despite top 25% first year, I definitely have a stinker or two on the transcript.

Someone say a Novena or something.

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kazu
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby kazu » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:40 am

Can you at least reveal your LS? I mean, I don't see how you can out yourself when you're anonymous.

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Nogameisfair
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Nogameisfair » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:43 am

kazu wrote:Can you at least reveal your LS? I mean, I don't see how you can out yourself when you're anonymous.


If it's midlaw, the summer class could be pretty small = outing himself or close to it.

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Verity
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Verity » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:45 am

I don't understand this (0L). How could a 4.0 drop because of the curve? Don't first year grades just stay the same? How does the curve change?

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:58 am

Nogameisfair wrote:
kazu wrote:Can you at least reveal your LS? I mean, I don't see how you can out yourself when you're anonymous.


If it's midlaw, the summer class could be pretty small = outing himself or close to it.



Exactly.

Verity wrote:I don't understand this (0L). How could a 4.0 drop because of the curve? Don't first year grades just stay the same? How does the curve change?


Example:

John is inside the top 50% by the skin of his teeth at School X. School X's median was a 2.8 for John's year, and John is that guy right smack on the median. That means John has 89.6 quality points / 32 hours or a 2.8 gpa.

John's school changes the curve from 2.7 ish to 3.4 after 1st year. John takes only 6 graded hours on this new curve during the fall of his 2L year, while other students in John's class take 14-16.

John gets a 4.0 in his fall 2L semester. That means he got 24 quality points / 6 hours or a 4.0 gpa. John's cumulative gpa is now a 2.989, or 113.6 quality points/ 38 hours. The median at John's school jumps up to around a 3.1 because of the new curve.

John is now no longer in the top 50% of his class. John gets fucked because he decided to take some pass fail courses during fall 2L semester. People urge John to take solace in the fact that it will all even out in the end. John wants to punch those people in the face.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:33 pm

That was an amazing example.

To all the 0L's, the curve can either be your best friend or your worst enemy. Which of those two it is can change on any given day.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby cr1stina » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:40 pm

Is there anyway to know if they will be changing the curve? Also, this does mean that if they were to lower the curve it could work in your favor as a 2L, right?

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Verity » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:05 pm

So I guess the best advice is to just get straight As and don't take pass/fail courses. Yay!

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:27 pm

cr1stina wrote:Is there anyway to know if they will be changing the curve? Also, this does mean that if they were to lower the curve it could work in your favor as a 2L, right?



Anonymous because I am OP:

If it's already a set policy, it'll be stated in their handbook. If it's just a situation where they decide to inflate grades by switching to a new curve, you'll know because they'll announce it to current students or because ATL will write an article about how terrible grade inflation unaccompanied by tuition deflation is.

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Veyron
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If your school shifts to a drastically different curve from your 1L to 2L year, make sure you take enough graded hours so you don't get screwed by the new curve.

I only took 12 total hours last semester, six of them graded. My school's curve jumped pretty drastically. I was in the top 25%, but the new grade cutoffs jumped so drastically because of the new curve that I slid all they way down to about top 40%. I calculated that even if I had gotten a 4.0 in my 6 graded hours I would still have dropped in rank because of how drastically the cutoffs shifted.

This morning my 2L firm asked me for my Fall grades. I now have to try to explain to them why my ranking has dropped. FML.


Ignore OP: One L grades are the only ones that matter. Take as few classes as you can so you can do better.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby vamedic03 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:03 am

Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If your school shifts to a drastically different curve from your 1L to 2L year, make sure you take enough graded hours so you don't get screwed by the new curve.

I only took 12 total hours last semester, six of them graded. My school's curve jumped pretty drastically. I was in the top 25%, but the new grade cutoffs jumped so drastically because of the new curve that I slid all they way down to about top 40%. I calculated that even if I had gotten a 4.0 in my 6 graded hours I would still have dropped in rank because of how drastically the cutoffs shifted.

This morning my 2L firm asked me for my Fall grades. I now have to try to explain to them why my ranking has dropped. FML.


Ignore OP: One L grades are the only ones that matter. Take as few classes as you can so you can do better.


Unless you want to clerk.

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Veyron
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:27 am

vamedic03 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If your school shifts to a drastically different curve from your 1L to 2L year, make sure you take enough graded hours so you don't get screwed by the new curve.

I only took 12 total hours last semester, six of them graded. My school's curve jumped pretty drastically. I was in the top 25%, but the new grade cutoffs jumped so drastically because of the new curve that I slid all they way down to about top 40%. I calculated that even if I had gotten a 4.0 in my 6 graded hours I would still have dropped in rank because of how drastically the cutoffs shifted.

This morning my 2L firm asked me for my Fall grades. I now have to try to explain to them why my ranking has dropped. FML.


Ignore OP: One L grades are the only ones that matter. Take as few classes as you can so you can do better.


Unless you want to clerk.


Lol, I guess so, I guess so.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:31 am

Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If your school shifts to a drastically different curve from your 1L to 2L year, make sure you take enough graded hours so you don't get screwed by the new curve.

I only took 12 total hours last semester, six of them graded. My school's curve jumped pretty drastically. I was in the top 25%, but the new grade cutoffs jumped so drastically because of the new curve that I slid all they way down to about top 40%. I calculated that even if I had gotten a 4.0 in my 6 graded hours I would still have dropped in rank because of how drastically the cutoffs shifted.

This morning my 2L firm asked me for my Fall grades. I now have to try to explain to them why my ranking has dropped. FML.


Ignore OP: One L grades are the only ones that matter. Take as few classes as you can so you can do better.


OP:

You're kidding right? There are obviously firms out there where all your grades matter...I was "fortunate" enough to find one of them :?

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Veyron
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If your school shifts to a drastically different curve from your 1L to 2L year, make sure you take enough graded hours so you don't get screwed by the new curve.

I only took 12 total hours last semester, six of them graded. My school's curve jumped pretty drastically. I was in the top 25%, but the new grade cutoffs jumped so drastically because of the new curve that I slid all they way down to about top 40%. I calculated that even if I had gotten a 4.0 in my 6 graded hours I would still have dropped in rank because of how drastically the cutoffs shifted.

This morning my 2L firm asked me for my Fall grades. I now have to try to explain to them why my ranking has dropped. FML.


Ignore OP: One L grades are the only ones that matter. Take as few classes as you can so you can do better.


OP:

You're kidding right? There are obviously firms out there where all your grades matter...I was "fortunate" enough to find one of them :?


Link to a biglaw or midlaw firm (hell any NLJ 250 firm) that generally hires on the basis of 2nd year grades?

I'm sure there is some firm out there that cares about 2nd year, but its in a small minority of firms. The vast majority of candidates at the vast majority of good firms are getting hired on the basis of 1L only, don't short change yourself for a shot at the 3 firms in America worth working for that don't hire via the SA process.

Edit:Maybe bartlit beck, but that will never be an issue for you unless you have perfect grades and COA under you belt.

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weee
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby weee » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:21 am

Ok so your rank went down, but your GPA presumably went up. If they accepted you with a certain GPA, and then it went up, wouldn't you think it makes little to no sense that they would flag that as a problem?

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:48 am

Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If your school shifts to a drastically different curve from your 1L to 2L year, make sure you take enough graded hours so you don't get screwed by the new curve.

I only took 12 total hours last semester, six of them graded. My school's curve jumped pretty drastically. I was in the top 25%, but the new grade cutoffs jumped so drastically because of the new curve that I slid all they way down to about top 40%. I calculated that even if I had gotten a 4.0 in my 6 graded hours I would still have dropped in rank because of how drastically the cutoffs shifted.

This morning my 2L firm asked me for my Fall grades. I now have to try to explain to them why my ranking has dropped. FML.


Ignore OP: One L grades are the only ones that matter. Take as few classes as you can so you can do better.

To proffer an opposing view, 2L grades are the number one reason for getting no offered and you should be panicked like whoa. Note that this view has a similar basis in evidence to that of Veyron.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby run26.2 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:05 am

Does your transcript have your class rank listed on it? If not, you should not have to report it.

Why did you take 2 classes P/F anyway? That decision seems like a bigger deal than the drop in class rank. P/F classes are usually taken by 3Ls who have offers in hand. I would be thinking about your explanation for the decision to take 2 P/Fs and only 12 hours if I were in your shoes. I would also be trying to excel this semester to counteract the dip and would not take any more P/Fs.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:23 am

Kohinoor wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If your school shifts to a drastically different curve from your 1L to 2L year, make sure you take enough graded hours so you don't get screwed by the new curve.

I only took 12 total hours last semester, six of them graded. My school's curve jumped pretty drastically. I was in the top 25%, but the new grade cutoffs jumped so drastically because of the new curve that I slid all they way down to about top 40%. I calculated that even if I had gotten a 4.0 in my 6 graded hours I would still have dropped in rank because of how drastically the cutoffs shifted.

This morning my 2L firm asked me for my Fall grades. I now have to try to explain to them why my ranking has dropped. FML.


Actually, the economy/ fit/ people being stupid all probably rank ahead of 2L grades on the no-offer wagon.

Besides, its hard to lose a job you never had.

Ignore OP: One L grades are the only ones that matter. Take as few classes as you can so you can do better.

To proffer an opposing view, 2L grades are the number one reason for getting no offered and you should be panicked like whoa. Note that this view has a similar basis in evidence to that of Veyron.


Got to get an offer to get no-offered. Besides you won't get no-offered if your grades stay the same, even if your school inflates 2L year.
Last edited by Veyron on Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:33 am

run26.2 wrote:Does your transcript have your class rank listed on it? If not, you should not have to report it.

Why did you take 2 classes P/F anyway? That decision seems like a bigger deal than the drop in class rank. P/F classes are usually taken by 3Ls who have offers in hand. I would be thinking about your explanation for the decision to take 2 P/Fs and only 12 hours if I were in your shoes. I would also be trying to excel this semester to counteract the dip and would not take any more P/Fs.



One was because I am on the school's trial advocacy competition team, the other was because I am doing an externship with a PI Org. Didn't want to add anymore hours than the 12 because those two things take up enough time, but I was also on Journal.

@ Veyron

WTF are you talking about. I'd like to ask what legal job you've ever had or what OCI process you've ever been through (I know the answer is none). I'm also not getting why you think a firm that asks to see your second year grades is a firm that doesn't hire through the SA process. "Don't short change yourself?" What is that even in reference to? How can one short change themselves by making sure they keep their gpa and class rank close to where it was following 1L?

"Take as few classes as you can so you can do better." You still need generally about 90 hours to graduate, and most schools I know of put a cap on the amount of pass/fail credits you can take, so what are you talking about here? You're gonna have to take the classes eventually.

The point of this thread wasn't to talk about being no offered or anything like that. It was simply to point out a potential downside to grade inflation, and to make people aware so they can avoid it. I'm really not worried about the job or in search of advice. Like I said in my example above, it all evens out in the end. It's just annoying at the moment.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:54 am

How can you predict whether your school will have grade inflation or not?

I am currently planning on doing a Practicum and an externship, both P/F so obviously the exact same position as you. Should I check on this issue somehow before registering to do this?

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:01 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:How can you predict whether your school will have grade inflation or not?

I am currently planning on doing a Practicum and an externship, both P/F so obviously the exact same position as you. Should I check on this issue somehow before registering to do this?


:OP:

I don't think "predicting" is the right term. If your school has a different curve for 1L and upper level courses, you either know already, or can find out from your handbook. If your school is planning to up it's curve in the near future, you've either already heard rumblings about it from SBA, or will find out before you register for classes next semester.

It all evens out in the end...it's just unnerving to take a hit and realize there is really not much you could have done about it. Most people won't have this problem, but if you do have a different curve from 1L to 2L, be aware of the fact that there will be a large shift in the class rank cutoffs so you should act accordingly.

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Veyron
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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
run26.2 wrote:Does your transcript have your class rank listed on it? If not, you should not have to report it.

Why did you take 2 classes P/F anyway? That decision seems like a bigger deal than the drop in class rank. P/F classes are usually taken by 3Ls who have offers in hand. I would be thinking about your explanation for the decision to take 2 P/Fs and only 12 hours if I were in your shoes. I would also be trying to excel this semester to counteract the dip and would not take any more P/Fs.



One was because I am on the school's trial advocacy competition team, the other was because I am doing an externship with a PI Org. Didn't want to add anymore hours than the 12 because those two things take up enough time, but I was also on Journal.

@ Veyron

WTF are you talking about. I'd like to ask what legal job you've ever had or what OCI process you've ever been through (I know the answer is none). I'm also not getting why you think a firm that asks to see your second year grades is a firm that doesn't hire through the SA process. "Don't short change yourself?" What is that even in reference to? How can one short change themselves by making sure they keep their gpa and class rank close to where it was following 1L?

"Take as few classes as you can so you can do better." You still need generally about 90 hours to graduate, and most schools I know of put a cap on the amount of pass/fail credits you can take, so what are you talking about here? You're gonna have to take the classes eventually.

The point of this thread wasn't to talk about being no offered or anything like that. It was simply to point out a potential downside to grade inflation, and to make people aware so they can avoid it. I'm really not worried about the job or in search of advice. Like I said in my example above, it all evens out in the end. It's just annoying at the moment.


*Knows nothing about the SA process*
*Is mad*

Edit: I tell you what, make me look like an idiot and give me the V range of the firm that you will be working for.

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Re: A message to 1L's about grade inflation

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:46 pm

Veyron wrote:
*Knows nothing about the SA process*
*Is mad*



*SA'd at two NLJ 250's 1L summer*
*Got offers at biglaw and midlaw firms for 2L summer*
*Will SA at two firms 2L summer*

Image


edit: I'll tell you what, make me look like an idiot and respond to the questions and comments I presented to you in my previous post.




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