CLS 1L, A-, B+, B

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Tree
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Re: CLS 1L, A-, B+, B

Postby Tree » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:56 pm

dont think you could get a job at mcdonalds with a 4.0 right now
unless its through maybe your school or u have connections

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RVP11
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Re: CLS 1L, A-, B+, B

Postby RVP11 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:01 pm

Renzo wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Renzo wrote:No. You're probably shut out of Boise Schiller and Wachtell, but those grades will not keep you out of biglaw.


Boies Schiller? Really?

Well, I don't know about there corporate side, seeing as how I thought someone was joking when they told the firm did corporate work. But the lit associates make BANK, so it's ultra-competitive.


Just because they make bank doesn't make it ultra-competitive. I mean, someone around top 1/3 or even middle of the class at CLS going to BSF doesn't seem like it'd be all that extraordinary. Which makes it odd that you used them as an example.

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Re: CLS 1L, A-, B+, B

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:48 pm

irie wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:CLS 2L here with a bit below that GPA who struck out at EIP. If you can't get it up to over Stone, you'll still have a good shot at biglaw. However, bidding and hustling to pick up extra interviews by mass mailing and being at your computer at 12:00 during add/drop will become very important. Prepare to tap every contact you know, ask every 2L/3L, troll these forums for advice. Anything OCS tells you should be run through multiple sources to verify. They can only hurt you with a median GPA.

You have a shot at R+G NYC for a 2L SA. Unless you are a URM, IP background, or significant relevant work experience you have no shot at a 1L SA.


Sorry to hear you struck out.... I hope you found something by now that you are happy with. Do you think grades were the main reason? or were there some other glaring errors (such as bidding above your range or not mass mailing) that you made that you would've corrected in hindsight? How do most people in the median/below stone range fare?

Best of luck with everything and thanks for the advice!


Quoted poster here: I'll gladly discuss this. I've been in law school too long, so I compare my situation to the "substance-procedure" distinction from Civ Pro.

Substantive stuff is grades, resume, and personality. My grades were median and my resume was unspectacular (I came straight from undergrad). My personality, while not an immediate turnoff, is not the kind where the partner is inviting me over his house to meet his daughter after a 20 minute interview (i.e. I'm like 90% of the people at CLS). Basically, if you look at this stuff and can say "the only reason to hire me is because I go to Columbia Law School, nothing really distinguishes me from my classmates" you are at-risk for striking out.

But you do go to CLS, which means you are at one of the few schools where an average personality, median grades, and a lackluster resume can STILL get you a BIGLAW job ITE. That's where "procedural" comes in. Procedural stuff is bidding, bidding correctly, number of screening interviews at EIP, mass-mailing, etc.

My mistakes were 1) not mass-mailing BEFORE EIP 2) bidding on a secondary market (I'll tell you how secondary markets work below) and 3) bidding my NYC safety firms in the wrong position (at the end of the list). This is where OCS can really kill you, because they will sign off on your bidlist no matter what crap is on there. They just haven't done the research to give you good advice because their job is normally very easy- the marginal gains from number crunching just aren't worth the hours in a normal economy. They are completely utterly useless ITE and it's my firm belief the office should be halved in size, but that's another topic.

So here are my recommendations:

1) A week or two before bidding, get the list of firms coming to EIP. Do a NALP search for "New York" and compile a list of firms on NALP not on the EIP list and the contact info of HR or the hiring partner (use the hiring partner only if HR isn't listed). Go to the firm website and see if they have a summer program. Repeat using Martindale, searching for firms in the area with 50+ lawyers. Send them your resume/transcript/cover letter/writing sample. Call 3-4 days later, say you are interested in a summer position, you are calling to check they received your materials, blah blah blah. Congrats, you have successfully mass mailed.

2) Now for secondary markets. Like most people, you may have a secondary market you wouldn't mind going back to and think it might be easier to get a job there than in NYC because all of your high grade classmates will want to go to "prestigious" NY or DC firms. Resist this impulse.

First, secondary market EIP is basically a mini-EIP with all the people who have ties to your secondary market. You are competing with the same small group of 20/40 people at every interview you go on. 1/3 of those people will be Stone Scholars. Everything else equal, they're getting callbacks before you.

Don't assume the high grades people will avoid the secondary markets. After initial bidding is finished and schedules are released, Symplicity calculates which firms have open slots remaining (less than 20 bids) and there is an open period where anyone can sign on and add those firms to their list. Nobody turns down free interviews ITE, so people who didn't bid them originally will add them now. You also can't assume Stone Scholars don't want to go to secondary markets. A lot of them would gladly choose a regional market-paying firm over a firm like Jones Day, Milbank or Shearman, and will bid on those firms during the first round. They'll get the higher ranked V10 firms they wanted in the first place, of course.

What I would do is mass mail most of the secondary market firms and offices. Only if a firm in your home market is comparable in size to one of the big NYC firms should you bid them. If they are a 100 person office, don't waste your time. It's also important to remember most of the 50-150 person offices just aren't looking for many people. They'll hire at most 1 or 2 SAs from CLS, and they don't mind not hiring anybody because they have local schools they need to maintain relationships with.

DC and CA are bloodbaths. Avoid them like the plague.

3) So when bidding, avoid the V10 because they are generally pretty selective, but don't think that the Vault rankings operate like US News (i.e. you need better numbers as you go up the list). A V75 firm may have a strict cutoff at Stone (because they are smaller and only hiring 10 summers) while a V30 may callback anyone who they like (because they have a class of 75). The numbers on the spreadsheet they will give you before EIP can help in determining selectivity (for example, if a firm gave out 75 callbacks but only 45 of those accepted, they may be giving cbs to high-grade candidates). In the end, however, there is no magic formula, just a general guideline: bid large NYC firms outside the V10. The V30 in particular love CLS students.

4) Do get on add/drop at 12PM on whatever day it is and add interviews like crazy. Make a detailed interview schedule and know what times you are available on what days to make it that much quicker. I added 4 interviews like that.

5) After your schedule is released, send your resume out to those firms you bid but didn't get interviews with. In the email explain that you wanted to interview with that firm because X, but due to the vagaries of the bidding system you didn't get an interview. Some of them might try to schedule you in during EIP. Others might not respond. Also do a general mass mail to all NYC firms. Bring 20 or so copies for your resume/transcript (they're free at the Registrar) and hand them out to every hospitality suite at EIP (hospitality suites are rooms with coffee, snacks, and firm HR reps waiting to talk about the firm).

Note: If you are interviewing with a firm and they have a hospitality suite, make sure to stop in. Some do check to see who bothered to come up. Yes, this shows how little information they have to evaluate candidates on.

Note 2: You can also get some useful swag. Some firms had USB drives.

Basically the trick here is to get your resume into as many firms as early on as you possibly can. Believe it or not, many firms had trouble filling their summer classes from just OCI. I think a lot of them misjudged their relative power (it is still a buyer's market, but nothing like 2009 EIP) and made too many offers to people who were going to higher ranked firms. They then went back to OCS (quietly) and asked to see more resumes from CLS students. If you give them your resume early, they may give you an auto-callback (they hate to admit they can't fill their classes and they will do their best to keep this from as many people as possible).

Do all this and you still might strike out. But you've given yourself the best possible chance FROM EIP to get a firm job. And remember, you go to one of the few schools where getting a biglaw job, even from below median, is not only possible but likely with proper bidding. Consider yourself very lucky.

EDIT: I just realized I didn't actually answer some of your questions. In terms of how people below Stone fare, I don't know exactly. From my small sample of friends I would say half. A quick thought experiment would seem to get a number around 1/2 too.

About 400 students do EIP (subtracting about 5% of the class for public interest but adding about 60 or so transfers). There are 120 Stone scholars (30%) in the class, plus the 60 transfers (who clean up at EIP) = 180, assuming all get jobs. That's 220 participants left. Now last year it was about 70% getting jobs out of EIP, this year say 80%. That's 320 EIP participants - 180 = 140. 140/the 70% of the class not Stone (280) = 50%. Obviously there are a bunch of assumptions here (like all Stone Scholars do EIP, or all transfers get jobs), and the population of people who get jobs below Stone may be skewed for some other factor, like prior work experience.

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Re: CLS 1L, A-, B+, B

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
irie wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:CLS 2L here with a bit below that GPA who struck out at EIP. If you can't get it up to over Stone, you'll still have a good shot at biglaw. However, bidding and hustling to pick up extra interviews by mass mailing and being at your computer at 12:00 during add/drop will become very important. Prepare to tap every contact you know, ask every 2L/3L, troll these forums for advice. Anything OCS tells you should be run through multiple sources to verify. They can only hurt you with a median GPA.

You have a shot at R+G NYC for a 2L SA. Unless you are a URM, IP background, or significant relevant work experience you have no shot at a 1L SA.


Sorry to hear you struck out.... I hope you found something by now that you are happy with. Do you think grades were the main reason? or were there some other glaring errors (such as bidding above your range or not mass mailing) that you made that you would've corrected in hindsight? How do most people in the median/below stone range fare?

Best of luck with everything and thanks for the advice!


Quoted poster here: I'll gladly discuss this. I've been in law school too long, so I compare my situation to the "substance-procedure" distinction from Civ Pro.

Substantive stuff is grades, resume, and personality. My grades were median and my resume was unspectacular (I came straight from undergrad). My personality, while not an immediate turnoff, is not the kind where the partner is inviting me over his house to meet his daughter after a 20 minute interview (i.e. I'm like 90% of the people at CLS). Basically, if you look at this stuff and can say "the only reason to hire me is because I go to Columbia Law School, nothing really distinguishes me from my classmates" you are at-risk for striking out.

But you do go to CLS, which means you are at one of the few schools where an average personality, median grades, and a lackluster resume can STILL get you a BIGLAW job ITE. That's where "procedural" comes in. Procedural stuff is bidding, bidding correctly, number of screening interviews at EIP, mass-mailing, etc.

My mistakes were 1) not mass-mailing BEFORE EIP 2) bidding on a secondary market (I'll tell you how secondary markets work below) and 3) bidding my NYC safety firms in the wrong position (at the end of the list). This is where OCS can really kill you, because they will sign off on your bidlist no matter what crap is on there. They just haven't done the research to give you good advice because their job is normally very easy- the marginal gains from number crunching just aren't worth the hours in a normal economy. They are completely utterly useless ITE and it's my firm belief the office should be halved in size, but that's another topic.

So here are my recommendations:

1) A week or two before bidding, get the list of firms coming to EIP. Do a NALP search for "New York" and compile a list of firms on NALP not on the EIP list and the contact info of HR or the hiring partner (use the hiring partner only if HR isn't listed). Go to the firm website and see if they have a summer program. Repeat using Martindale, searching for firms in the area with 50+ lawyers. Send them your resume/transcript/cover letter/writing sample. Call 3-4 days later, say you are interested in a summer position, you are calling to check they received your materials, blah blah blah. Congrats, you have successfully mass mailed.

2) Now for secondary markets. Like most people, you may have a secondary market you wouldn't mind going back to and think it might be easier to get a job there than in NYC because all of your high grade classmates will want to go to "prestigious" NY or DC firms. Resist this impulse.

First, secondary market EIP is basically a mini-EIP with all the people who have ties to your secondary market. You are competing with the same small group of 20/40 people at every interview you go on. 1/3 of those people will be Stone Scholars. Everything else equal, they're getting callbacks before you.

Don't assume the high grades people will avoid the secondary markets. After initial bidding is finished and schedules are released, Symplicity calculates which firms have open slots remaining (less than 20 bids) and there is an open period where anyone can sign on and add those firms to their list. Nobody turns down free interviews ITE, so people who didn't bid them originally will add them now. You also can't assume Stone Scholars don't want to go to secondary markets. A lot of them would gladly choose a regional market-paying firm over a firm like Jones Day, Milbank or Shearman, and will bid on those firms during the first round. They'll get the higher ranked V10 firms they wanted in the first place, of course.

What I would do is mass mail most of the secondary market firms and offices. Only if a firm in your home market is comparable in size to one of the big NYC firms should you bid them. If they are a 100 person office, don't waste your time. It's also important to remember most of the 50-150 person offices just aren't looking for many people. They'll hire at most 1 or 2 SAs from CLS, and they don't mind not hiring anybody because they have local schools they need to maintain relationships with.

DC and CA are bloodbaths. Avoid them like the plague.

3) So when bidding, avoid the V10 because they are generally pretty selective, but don't think that the Vault rankings operate like US News (i.e. you need better numbers as you go up the list). A V75 firm may have a strict cutoff at Stone (because they are smaller and only hiring 10 summers) while a V30 may callback anyone who they like (because they have a class of 75). The numbers on the spreadsheet they will give you before EIP can help in determining selectivity (for example, if a firm gave out 75 callbacks but only 45 of those accepted, they may be giving cbs to high-grade candidates). In the end, however, there is no magic formula, just a general guideline: bid large NYC firms outside the V10. The V30 in particular love CLS students.

4) Do get on add/drop at 12PM on whatever day it is and add interviews like crazy. Make a detailed interview schedule and know what times you are available on what days to make it that much quicker. I added 4 interviews like that.

5) After your schedule is released, send your resume out to those firms you bid but didn't get interviews with. In the email explain that you wanted to interview with that firm because X, but due to the vagaries of the bidding system you didn't get an interview. Some of them might try to schedule you in during EIP. Others might not respond. Also do a general mass mail to all NYC firms. Bring 20 or so copies for your resume/transcript (they're free at the Registrar) and hand them out to every hospitality suite at EIP (hospitality suites are rooms with coffee, snacks, and firm HR reps waiting to talk about the firm).

Note: If you are interviewing with a firm and they have a hospitality suite, make sure to stop in. Some do check to see who bothered to come up. Yes, this shows how little information they have to evaluate candidates on.

Note 2: You can also get some useful swag. Some firms had USB drives.

Basically the trick here is to get your resume into as many firms as early on as you possibly can. Believe it or not, many firms had trouble filling their summer classes from just OCI. I think a lot of them misjudged their relative power (it is still a buyer's market, but nothing like 2009 EIP) and made too many offers to people who were going to higher ranked firms. They then went back to OCS (quietly) and asked to see more resumes from CLS students. If you give them your resume early, they may give you an auto-callback (they hate to admit they can't fill their classes and they will do their best to keep this from as many people as possible).

Do all this and you still might strike out. But you've given yourself the best possible chance FROM EIP to get a firm job. And remember, you go to one of the few schools where getting a biglaw job, even from below median, is not only possible but likely with proper bidding. Consider yourself very lucky.

EDIT: I just realized I didn't actually answer some of your questions. In terms of how people below Stone fare, I don't know exactly. From my small sample of friends I would say half. A quick thought experiment would seem to get a number around 1/2 too.

About 400 students do EIP (subtracting about 5% of the class for public interest but adding about 60 or so transfers). There are 120 Stone scholars (30%) in the class, plus the 60 transfers (who clean up at EIP) = 180, assuming all get jobs. That's 220 participants left. Now last year it was about 70% getting jobs out of EIP, this year say 80%. That's 320 EIP participants - 180 = 140. 140/the 70% of the class not Stone (280) = 50%. Obviously there are a bunch of assumptions here (like all Stone Scholars do EIP, or all transfers get jobs), and the population of people who get jobs below Stone may be skewed for some other factor, like prior work experience.


This is amazing. Thanks for taking the time to post this, though the 50% statistic makes me sad.

Renzo
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Re: CLS 1L, A-, B+, B

Postby Renzo » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:26 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Renzo wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Renzo wrote:No. You're probably shut out of Boise Schiller and Wachtell, but those grades will not keep you out of biglaw.


Boies Schiller? Really?

Well, I don't know about there corporate side, seeing as how I thought someone was joking when they told the firm did corporate work. But the lit associates make BANK, so it's ultra-competitive.


Just because they make bank doesn't make it ultra-competitive. I mean, someone around top 1/3 or even middle of the class at CLS going to BSF doesn't seem like it'd be all that extraordinary. Which makes it odd that you used them as an example.

I used them because they have a reputation for very strict grade screening, like WLRK and unlike (e.g.) Davis Polk; it's as simple as that.




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