top 30% biglaw chances?

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Anonymous User
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top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:07 pm

lower tier 1 (40-50), what are my chances at biglaw (top 30% after 1 semester)

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:10 pm

First, you would need two semesters for anyone to truly give you an opinion. Secondly, the exact school (or at least a smaller range) would be helpful.

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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:14 pm

don't want to out myself--dc area school (assume I maintain my rank this semester heading into oci)

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:15 pm

Top 30% at Mason probably won't get it done.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:16 pm

It's unlikely.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:17 pm

So either George Mason or American. Top 30%? Chances are slim. DC is over-saturated and very competitive with students from much better schools, both in DC (GW, GULC) and outside (the rest of the T14).

paulinaporizkova
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby paulinaporizkova » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:don't want to out myself--dc area school (assume I maintain my rank this semester heading into oci)
nonprofit-prophet wrote:Top 30% at Mason probably won't get it done.
\

haha people on this site are such assholes.

seriousstudenttt
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby seriousstudenttt » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:22 pm

DC area (maryland/american/mason) top 30% has slim to no chance at biglaw--try to get up into the top 10% range this semester (talk to profs). DC is too saturated with lawyers.

Anonymous User
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:29 pm

what about midlaw?

cornellbeez
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby cornellbeez » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:55 pm

Terrible for biglaw. Midlaw - depends on the market.

theghostofDrewTate
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby theghostofDrewTate » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:what about midlaw?


Define midlaw and post links to target firm websites. To my knowledge, firms that are below biglaw in Chicago don't hire entry level - they hire biglaw refugees. Check websites and see if the firms in your target market actually hire entry level, some might, but with the T14 biglaw refugees available, the odds are slim.

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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:14 pm

As posted above, 30% is usually impossible for biglaw from a DC T50, unless you have some unusual hook or connection, such as a strong IP background. Without doubt, DC is probably the worst primary market for biglaw.

That said, the midlaw market is still relatively healthy in DC. DC has a lot of midlaw practice areas that are less common in other geographical locations, especially administrative/regulatory-related areas. However, getting into midlaw is tricky because midlaw firms don't do OCI and do not place as much emphasis on grades. That is, a 40% candidate can easily fare better than a 25% one, depending on the circumstances. Conventional wisdom is that "firms that are below biglaw...don't hire entry level," but this tends to be an urban myth that is overblown, because job search for most T14 people are limited to OCI and that's it. Again, you must look outside of OCI.

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General Tso
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby General Tso » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:25 pm

very unlikely

top 15-20% at my lower T1 was a longshot for biglaw

Aqualibrium
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:However, getting into midlaw is tricky because midlaw firms don't do OCI and do not place as much emphasis on grades. That is, a 40% candidate can easily fare better than a 25% one, depending on the circumstances. Conventional wisdom is that "firms that are below biglaw...don't hire entry level," but this tends to be an urban myth that is overblown, because job search for most T14 people are limited to OCI and that's it. Again, you must look outside of OCI.



Where are you getting this info from? It's been my personal experience that Midlaw firms, that is NLJ250's that aren't in the Vault/Amlaw 100 and other regionally powerful firms, do participate in OCI, do follow the typical large firm hiring model, do hire entry level associates, and do care about grades. That's again from my personal experience in markets throughout the South & Mid-Atlantic (including DC Metro).

theghostofDrewTate
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby theghostofDrewTate » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:05 pm

Please name these midlaw firms - I'd like to look into them myself. The firms in Chicago that are a cut under biglaw used to do OCI, but they stopped and have been hiring only biglaw laterals ITE, but I would be interested in seeing what is going on elsewhere.

Aqualibrium
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:20 pm

I don't feel I need to name them to talk about hiring trends that I myself observed throughout the process of securing a 2L summer job. I don't feel I need to name them to know that it's patently false for some guy who uses the anonymous feature to say that "midlaw firms don't do OCI and don't care about grades."


As I said before, I interviewed with firms all across the South and Mid-Atlantic including the DC Metro area. All of them hired entry level associates, all of them participated in OCI at several schools, all of them stuck to the traditional big law model of hiring 3L's that summered with them.

Do I think market trends are different from place to place? Sure. I totally believe that many Chicago midlaw firms have stopped hiring entry levels. That, plus the decline in biglaw hiring, would account for the dismal 2L OCI stories in the city.


Pull up the NLJ 250, Pull up The Amlaw/Vault 100. Cross out all the firms on the NLJ250 that are also on the Amlaw/Vault 100. Then, call the remaining firms up, email them, or go to NALP and see if they did OCI this past year, and where they traditionally do OCI. You'll quickly see for yourself that the idea that midlaw firms generally don't do oci/care about grades/hire entry levels is a ridiculous one.

Also, it's important to add that my point isn't that this guy/gal is gonna have an easy time securing a firm job. OP has little to no shot at biglaw and very little shot at midlaw because of the small class sizes midlaw firms take in. I'm just questioning the Anon guy's info.



EDIT: Just in the interest of bringing facts to the table, I went to NALP and pulled up a few firms from one of the cities I interviewed in:

Adams and Reese LLP
Jones, Walker, Waechter, Poitevent, Carrère & Denègre
McGlinchey Stafford, PLLC
Phelps Dunbar LLP
STONE PIGMAN WALTHER WITTMANN L.L.C.

All are midlaw firms. All do OCI. All care about grades (a few are notorious about that). All hire entry levels.

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beach_terror
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby beach_terror » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:28 pm

Just some anecdotal information, the midlaw firm I'm "targeting" for my career has almost every associate with law review credentials. I highly doubt 20 associates with LR on their resume is a coincidence.

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LLB2JD
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby LLB2JD » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:35 pm

beach_terror wrote:Just some anecdotal information, the midlaw firm I'm "targeting" for my career has almost every associate with law review credentials. I highly doubt 20 associates with LR on their resume is a coincidence.


Your suspicions are most likely very correct

theghostofDrewTate
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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby theghostofDrewTate » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:53 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:I don't feel I need to name them to talk about hiring trends that I myself observed throughout the process of securing a 2L summer job. I don't feel I need to name them to know that it's patently false for some guy who uses the anonymous feature to say that "midlaw firms don't do OCI and don't care about grades."


As I said before, I interviewed with firms all across the South and Mid-Atlantic including the DC Metro area. All of them hired entry level associates, all of them participated in OCI at several schools, all of them stuck to the traditional big law model of hiring 3L's that summered with them.

Do I think market trends are different from place to place? Sure. I totally believe that many Chicago midlaw firms have stopped hiring entry levels. That, plus the decline in biglaw hiring, would account for the dismal 2L OCI stories in the city.


Pull up the NLJ 250, Pull up The Amlaw/Vault 100. Cross out all the firms on the NLJ250 that are also on the Amlaw/Vault 100. Then, call the remaining firms up, email them, or go to NALP and see if they did OCI this past year, and where they traditionally do OCI. You'll quickly see for yourself that the idea that midlaw firms generally don't do oci/care about grades/hire entry levels is a ridiculous one.

Also, it's important to add that my point isn't that this guy/gal is gonna have an easy time securing a firm job. OP has little to no shot at biglaw and very little shot at midlaw because of the small class sizes midlaw firms take in. I'm just questioning the Anon guy's info.



EDIT: Just in the interest of bringing facts to the table, I went to NALP and pulled up a few firms from one of the cities I interviewed in:

Adams and Reese LLP
Jones, Walker, Waechter, Poitevent, Carrère & Denègre
McGlinchey Stafford, PLLC
Phelps Dunbar LLP
STONE PIGMAN WALTHER WITTMANN L.L.C.

All are midlaw firms. All do OCI. All care about grades (a few are notorious about that). All hire entry levels.


Jeebus - I looked at their NALP forms - they look like "biglaw" type firms in New Orleans and their yield rates are atrocious. When dude was talking about midlaw, I thought he meant firms like Goldberg Kohn in Chicago, not the big firms in secondary markets. Those big firms in secondary markets mean that you're competing with the local schools and any T14 kids who are from that area who want to move back. No way does top third at a marginal school cut it for those type of shops. OP needs to view first year as an option - if he/she isn't in top of class, drop out and go do something else. No way the extra $100k+ of tuition and opportunity cost is worth it. Back in my day, I would guess way more kids went to V100 than NLJ250 (minus V100), but I'm an old guy and I don't know what's going on with those mid sized firms in markets outside of Chi-town.

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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:56 pm

I go to UMD, one of the three schools in OP's range.

I can tell you that with your grades DC BigLaw is out of the question unless you are URM, IP, family connections, or have really impressive pre-law school WE. Even then it will be rough for you. I do know people from UMD who got DC BigLaw- Covington, Patton Boggs, and Arent Fox all come to mind, and I also got a CB myself at Skadden DC (dinged though). These people were all LR and probably top 10% with WE though.

Whoever said that MidLaw doesn't hire from OCI is completely incorrect, at least in this context. Several Baltimore and one NoVa MidLaw firms participated in UMD's OCI -- Miles & Stockbridge, Saul Ewing, Ober Kaler, Gordon Feinblatt, and Semmes Bowen & Semmes are just some examples off the top of my head. You also have several V rated outfits with Baltimore branches- DLA, Venable, Hogan Lovells, Duane Morris, again just from the top of my head.

So in conclusion, if you're 30% at UMD you have no shot (assuming non-URM, non-IP, etc...) at DC BigLaw. Baltimore BigLaw will probably be pretty tough as well with those stats, I know that DLA only hired 5 and Hogan 1 SA for 2011. I think that you would have an outside chance at MidLaw, though its hard to say how many SAs those firms hired. You really need to work on increasing your GPA during second semester and writing onto LR. I don't have any knowledge about conditions at GMU or American, though just to guess I would say that GMU may be a little stronger due to better connections in NoVa, and American probably the weakest of the 3 because it would be wholly focused on DC.

Good luck, and hope that helped.

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Re: top 30% biglaw chances?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:01 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:However, getting into midlaw is tricky because midlaw firms don't do OCI and do not place as much emphasis on grades. That is, a 40% candidate can easily fare better than a 25% one, depending on the circumstances. Conventional wisdom is that "firms that are below biglaw...don't hire entry level," but this tends to be an urban myth that is overblown, because job search for most T14 people are limited to OCI and that's it. Again, you must look outside of OCI.



Where are you getting this info from? It's been my personal experience that Midlaw firms, that is NLJ250's that aren't in the Vault/Amlaw 100 and other regionally powerful firms, do participate in OCI, do follow the typical large firm hiring model, do hire entry level associates, and do care about grades. That's again from my personal experience in markets throughout the South & Mid-Atlantic (including DC Metro).

Just to clarify, when I wrote the above quote, I didn't mean to write that they don't do OCI, just that not all of them do OCI. In fact, I did interview/CB with midlaw in OCI. Also I was thinking of "midlaw" as smaller than NLJ 250.




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