michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

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michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:35 pm

straight B+'s
slightly above median
shot at NYC V50?
what about V100?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:40 pm

You have a shot.

Target the least selective and middle range of vault firms at OCI (in terms of selectivity).

Your career services should have the historical data related to what GPA's have gotten into which firms.

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verdandi
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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby verdandi » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:45 pm

1) Focus this semester on bringing your average up. Higher is always better. If you could get over the B+/A- hump and get straight A-s this semester, that would bring you to a 3.5 and solidly within V25-V50 range.

2) Report back after you get your second round of grades. Feel free to PM me at that time; I'm working in NYC this summer.

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RVP11
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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:47 pm

Threads linking up GPAs to Vault ranges are LOL-worthy. This isn't law school admissions, folks.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:51 pm

Are these 1L posts asking their chances at OCI in 8 months after another semester of grades and uncertain economic turns?

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:54 pm

Kohinoor wrote:Are these 1L posts asking their chances at OCI in 8 months after another semester of grades and uncertain economic turns?


This, too.

Depending on how things go, people like OP could end up anywhere from V10 SA to unemployment.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby verdandi » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:59 pm

RVP11 wrote:Threads linking up GPAs to Vault ranges are LOL-worthy. This isn't law school admissions, folks.


You are absolutely right, it isn't law school admissions. GPA means even more when it comes to OCI and there's no LSAT to make up for a poor GPA.

Economic times are uncertain. 1Ls are justifiably concerned; Michigan had a rough outing in 2009 and had an uneven, but better, performance in 2010. Should 1Ls start organizing their bid lists? Certainly not. But if New York BigLaw is your goal, it isn't unreasonable to figure out what you need to do, between now and then, to make that happen.

Usually I'm a big fan of putting 0Ls and 1Ls in their place. But work-related info is pretty serious stuff.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:12 pm

You are absolutely right, it isn't law school admissions. GPA means even more when it comes to OCI and there's no LSAT to make up for a poor GPA.


That second statement is not the obvious implication from the first. It isn't like law school admissions, not because GPA is weighted more, but because candidates are interviewed far more extensively. I'd even be willing to argue that GPA matters even less when it comes to interviewing for firms than for law school admissions.

And this whole process really shows the disconnect between law school admissions and interviewing for a big firm. For the former, 99% of candidates who are good on paper make it to a good school. For the latter, what's good on paper doesn't necessarily translate to something that's good in person.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:14 pm

it isn't unreasonable to figure out what you need to do, between now and then, to make that happen.


The advice would be the same, regardless: Put your best foot forward for the second semester. I'm not sure what else there is to do, and even you seem to concede that arranging/re-arranging bid lists is a little ridiculous at this ponit.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:17 pm

that would bring you to a 3.5 and solidly within V25-V50 range.


I think this is far too pessimistic, even for this economic crisis. With a 3.5 at Michigan, the candidate arguably has a decent shot or better at every V10 but WLRK (which doesn't interview at Michigan), S&C, Cravath, W&C, and Covington.

This is where interviewing skills will make the difference.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:25 pm

verdandi wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Threads linking up GPAs to Vault ranges are LOL-worthy. This isn't law school admissions, folks.

If New York BigLaw is your goal, it isn't unreasonable to figure out what you need to do, between now and then, to make that happen.

But all 1Ls should be shooting for a 4.0 and getting moving on whatever contacts they have. It's not like we have varied advice to give them.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby verdandi » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:00 pm

A&O wrote:
You are absolutely right, it isn't law school admissions. GPA means even more when it comes to OCI and there's no LSAT to make up for a poor GPA.

I'd even be willing to argue that GPA matters even less when it comes to interviewing for firms than for law school admissions.


I suppose that depends on what "matters" means. Don't forget that the first cuts are made after a mere 20 minute interview. Will the interview differentiate between two people with the same GPA? Absolutely. Will it make up a .2 difference in GPA? Probably not (caveat: this is probably more true for some firms than others). But it is an absolute FACT that firms have a certain GPA range they are looking for, and many of them are told not to call back candidates below a certain threshold. Once you make the callback your odds of an offer go up substantially.

If the OP told me "I want to work for a V5 in NYC, I have a 3.3, what do I need to do?" I wouldn't say "all you gotta do is polish your interviewing skills." I'd say, you need straight A-range grades second semester to give yourself a decent shot, period. Does that discount the occasional dazzling student, who's able to spin median grades into a position at some super-selective firm? Sure. But you have to do what you can to give yourself the best shot possible, and for some firms that means meeting certain thresholds.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:09 pm

Will the interview differentiate between two people with the same GPA? Absolutely. Will it make up a .2 difference in GPA?


Huh? Interviews can and do do this all the time. Even at V5s.

But it is an absolute FACT that firms have a certain GPA range they are looking for, and many of them are told not to call back candidates below a certain threshold. Once you make the callback your odds of an offer go up substantially.


Yes, law firms have GPA cut-offs. But law schools do too. But the difference between a 3.4 and a 3.5 is not nearly as big a difference for a big firm as it is for a top law school, all things being equal.

If the OP told me "I want to work for a V5 in NYC, I have a 3.3, what do I need to do?" I wouldn't say "all you gotta do is polish your interviewing skills." I'd say, you need straight A-range grades second semester to give yourself a decent shot, period.


You're missing the point. I'd say the OP should be aiming for straight A-range grades second semester, regardless of what he's targeting. Like I said above, OP should be putting his best foot forward. This advice doesn't change depending on what Vault range firm he's targeting.

You seem to be misreading my posts. I never once implied that interviews will save the day for the OP. I said that interviews make a huge difference, and that's why law school admissions is different from law firm admissions. Most law schools don't interview their candidates, and if they do, they don't do it nearly as extensively as law firms.

Case in point, I'm familiar with many MVP students with 3.3-3.4 who scored V5 callbacks and offers. Your statements implying some strict correlation between GPA and Vault range are misguided at best.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:16 pm

All the above responses are credited. In any case, as a Michigan 2L with a 3.3x in 1L and got NYC V50 through OCI, I'd say you are definitely within the callback range so long as GPA is concerned. Provided, though, you interview with firms with decent class size. Right now, however, you should get over the numbers for a while and see how could you improve in your second term. It would always be nice if you have some A / A- on your transcript; talk to your professors and try to make that happen.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby verdandi » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:40 pm

First, I'll concede we might be talking past each other a bit, and that I am probably the most at fault. I'm just trying to emphasize two things that are not intuitive about the process unless you've been through it. First, grades matter a lot; for every person who scored a great job with a wonderful firm despite mediocre grades, there are several others with the same grades and sparkling personalities that were overlooked. OCI can be a cold process, and I don't want anyone to go in unprepared for that. Second, assuming no ties or personal connections to a firm or its personnel, OCI is success is based on three main factors: interview ability, grades (and to a lesser extent, extracurriculars), and school reputation. This is because these are the only data points the firms have. You rightly point out that Law Schools do not have the luxury of interviews, but firms don't have the second metric of the LSAT, either.

A&O wrote:Case in point, I'm familiar with many MVP students with 3.3-3.4 who scored V5 callbacks and offers. Your statements implying some strict correlation between GPA and Vault range are misguided at best.


I'm just going to have to trust you on that. I have reason to believe that, on average, these are the exception rather than the rule. For the record I do not think there is a strict correlation between GPA and Vault range, rather, it seems to me that firms have certain established GPA thresholds: above a certain GPA you'll get a serious look even if you have a so-so interview, below a certain GPA you'll really have to wow them to get the callback. Such a system would allow for serious deviations while still clustering firms around certain means.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:48 pm

There are multiple V10s that regularly call back people with 3.3-3.5 (at MVP) and give the shaft to people with 3.8-3.9 who don't do well in the interview. Once you're over a firm's soft cutoff it doesn't really seem to matter how much you clear it by. I've seen this.

The problem with the whole GPA-to-Vault range thing is that there are both gradewhore firms and non-gradewhore firms in almost every range you can think of - the V5 has both WLRK and Skadden, the V10 has both Covington and Weil, the V20 has both W&C and Latham, the V50 has both MTO and DLA Piper, V100 has both PBWT and regional firms (e.g. Bryan Cave, Perkins Coie) who would take a 3.2 who "fits" over a 3.5 who doesn't.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby MrKappus » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:51 pm

verdandi wrote:You are absolutely right, it isn't law school admissions. GPA means even more when it comes to OCI and there's no LSAT to make up for a poor GPA.


Illogical conclusion is illogical. GPA is important, but equally important are the "softs" that supplant the LSAT in this analogy you're drawing: WE, interview skills, looks, geographic ties, smart bidding, &c.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby cattail » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:42 pm

RVP11 wrote:There are multiple V10s that regularly call back people with 3.3-3.5 (at MVP) and give the shaft to people with 3.8-3.9 who don't do well in the interview. Once you're over a firm's soft cutoff it doesn't really seem to matter how much you clear it by. I've seen this.

The problem with the whole GPA-to-Vault range thing is that there are both gradewhore firms and non-gradewhore firms in almost every range you can think of - the V5 has both WLRK and Skadden, the V10 has both Covington and Weil, the V20 has both W&C and Latham, the V50 has both MTO and DLA Piper, V100 has both PBWT and regional firms (e.g. Bryan Cave, Perkins Coie) who would take a 3.2 who "fits" over a 3.5 who doesn't.


this sounds good, I like it.
So the firms you listed are the ones that are more relaxed on GPA? i'm confused, cuz WLRK and Skadden do not sound like they are less selective...

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:53 pm

verdandi wrote:1) Focus this semester on bringing your average up. Higher is always better. If you could get over the B+/A- hump and get straight A-s this semester, that would bring you to a 3.5 and solidly within V25-V50 range.

2) Report back after you get your second round of grades. Feel free to PM me at that time; I'm working in NYC this summer.


Thanks! OP here. I'm a summer. I've had B+s for two semesters. I tried hard to improve my grades the second semester and I think I've done all I could (though I'm definitely not the most hard working). But nothing changed. I don't know what else I can do. Im just not smart enough to get over the B+/A- hump. I've lost hope on this. So 3.3 is highly likely my final 1L GPA. thats why I'm trying to figure out my chances at this point.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:05 pm

cattail wrote:
RVP11 wrote:There are multiple V10s that regularly call back people with 3.3-3.5 (at MVP) and give the shaft to people with 3.8-3.9 who don't do well in the interview. Once you're over a firm's soft cutoff it doesn't really seem to matter how much you clear it by. I've seen this.

The problem with the whole GPA-to-Vault range thing is that there are both gradewhore firms and non-gradewhore firms in almost every range you can think of - the V5 has both WLRK and Skadden, the V10 has both Covington and Weil, the V20 has both W&C and Latham, the V50 has both MTO and DLA Piper, V100 has both PBWT and regional firms (e.g. Bryan Cave, Perkins Coie) who would take a 3.2 who "fits" over a 3.5 who doesn't.


this sounds good, I like it.
So the firms you listed are the ones that are more relaxed on GPA? i'm confused, cuz WLRK and Skadden do not sound like they are less selective...


WLRK is super-selective. Skadden is not.

I listed both a super-selective (based on grades) firm and a not-so-selective firm for each Vault range. That was my point.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby vamedic03 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:19 pm

RVP11 wrote:
cattail wrote:
RVP11 wrote:There are multiple V10s that regularly call back people with 3.3-3.5 (at MVP) and give the shaft to people with 3.8-3.9 who don't do well in the interview. Once you're over a firm's soft cutoff it doesn't really seem to matter how much you clear it by. I've seen this.

The problem with the whole GPA-to-Vault range thing is that there are both gradewhore firms and non-gradewhore firms in almost every range you can think of - the V5 has both WLRK and Skadden, the V10 has both Covington and Weil, the V20 has both W&C and Latham, the V50 has both MTO and DLA Piper, V100 has both PBWT and regional firms (e.g. Bryan Cave, Perkins Coie) who would take a 3.2 who "fits" over a 3.5 who doesn't.


this sounds good, I like it.
So the firms you listed are the ones that are more relaxed on GPA? i'm confused, cuz WLRK and Skadden do not sound like they are less selective...


WLRK is super-selective. Skadden is not.

I listed both a super-selective (based on grades) firm and a not-so-selective firm for each Vault range. That was my point.


TBF Skadden has been rather selective in the past couple years, considering they've slashed their SA class from 200+ firm wide to ~70.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:
verdandi wrote:1) Focus this semester on bringing your average up. Higher is always better. If you could get over the B+/A- hump and get straight A-s this semester, that would bring you to a 3.5 and solidly within V25-V50 range.

2) Report back after you get your second round of grades. Feel free to PM me at that time; I'm working in NYC this summer.


Thanks! OP here. I'm a summer. I've had B+s for two semesters. I tried hard to improve my grades the second semester and I think I've done all I could (though I'm definitely not the most hard working). But nothing changed. I don't know what else I can do. Im just not smart enough to get over the B+/A- hump. I've lost hope on this. So 3.3 is highly likely my final 1L GPA. thats why I'm trying to figure out my chances at this point.


Don't underestimate your ability to get the gpa in upper level classes. There are more 2/3L's than you know that seriously don't do much.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
verdandi wrote:1) Focus this semester on bringing your average up. Higher is always better. If you could get over the B+/A- hump and get straight A-s this semester, that would bring you to a 3.5 and solidly within V25-V50 range.

2) Report back after you get your second round of grades. Feel free to PM me at that time; I'm working in NYC this summer.


Thanks! OP here. I'm a summer. I've had B+s for two semesters. I tried hard to improve my grades the second semester and I think I've done all I could (though I'm definitely not the most hard working). But nothing changed. I don't know what else I can do. Im just not smart enough to get over the B+/A- hump. I've lost hope on this. So 3.3 is highly likely my final 1L GPA. thats why I'm trying to figure out my chances at this point.


Also, screw MK's Property. Seriously.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:04 am

vamedic03 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
cattail wrote:
RVP11 wrote:There are multiple V10s that regularly call back people with 3.3-3.5 (at MVP) and give the shaft to people with 3.8-3.9 who don't do well in the interview. Once you're over a firm's soft cutoff it doesn't really seem to matter how much you clear it by. I've seen this.

The problem with the whole GPA-to-Vault range thing is that there are both gradewhore firms and non-gradewhore firms in almost every range you can think of - the V5 has both WLRK and Skadden, the V10 has both Covington and Weil, the V20 has both W&C and Latham, the V50 has both MTO and DLA Piper, V100 has both PBWT and regional firms (e.g. Bryan Cave, Perkins Coie) who would take a 3.2 who "fits" over a 3.5 who doesn't.


this sounds good, I like it.
So the firms you listed are the ones that are more relaxed on GPA? i'm confused, cuz WLRK and Skadden do not sound like they are less selective...


WLRK is super-selective. Skadden is not.

I listed both a super-selective (based on grades) firm and a not-so-selective firm for each Vault range. That was my point.


TBF Skadden has been rather selective in the past couple years, considering they've slashed their SA class from 200+ firm wide to ~70.


But still not that selective in terms of grades. Virtually every firm has gotten selective based on the other stuff, which is why people can still strike out with LR grades.

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Re: michigan 3.3 NYC V50?

Postby Unemployed » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:40 am

RVP11 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
I listed both a super-selective (based on grades) firm and a not-so-selective firm for each Vault range. That was my point.



TBF Skadden has been rather selective in the past couple years, considering they've slashed their SA class from 200+ firm wide to ~70.


But still not that selective in terms of grades. Virtually every firm has gotten selective based on the other stuff, which is why people can still strike out with LR grades.


They are pretty grade-conscious at Columbia. Weil, Skadden, Simpson, and Cleary are the least grade-selective V10's here (there is a noticeable drop-off after DPW), but they are still more selective than almost every other non-V10. Obviously there are exceptions like Munger, etc. and firms like Paul Weiss, Deb, and K&E are on the same level of selectivity...




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