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1L at SLS... straight Ps. I'm disappointed because I worked pretty hard (though not as hard as some people), but now I just want to know what kind of situation I'm in for OCI next year. I'm hoping to do better the next 2 quarters... but I feel like I don't know how likely that is given how hardworking and smart my classmates are.

I know of 2Ls with all Ps who got fairly non-prestigious NYC firms, but I really want DC or SF. Anyone have any insight?

Anonymous User wrote:1L at SLS... straight Ps. I'm disappointed because I worked pretty hard (though not as hard as some people), but now I just want to know what kind of situation I'm in for OCI next year. I'm hoping to do better the next 2 quarters... but I feel like I don't know how likely that is given how hardworking and smart my classmates are.

I know of 2Ls with all Ps who got fairly non-prestigious NYC firms, but I really want DC or SF. Anyone have any insight?

Go meet with your profs and go over your exams.

Anonymous User wrote:1L at SLS... straight Ps. I'm disappointed because I worked pretty hard (though not as hard as some people), but now I just want to know what kind of situation I'm in for OCI next year. I'm hoping to do better the next 2 quarters... but I feel like I don't know how likely that is given how hardworking and smart my classmates are.

I know of 2Ls with all Ps who got fairly non-prestigious NYC firms, but I really want DC or SF. Anyone have any insight?

annnnd you're passing at stanford. something tells me you'll be fine.

2L at HLS here. You can count DC out and probably SF as well (I've heard SF is also a fairly hard market to crack). I know plenty of people with strong grades who got shut out of DC. After my first year, I had 7 H's out of 10 grades -- received only two DC callbacks (out of six EIP interviews), and then only one DC offer (though I didn't accept the other DC callback anyway). If you make LR, then it might be a different story, but otherwise, straight P's will kill you in DC. Go for NYC.

Really try to make an effort during the rest of the year. Though you're at SLS, few firms will forgive straight P's. I know of several people who had straight P's that got totally shut out of EIP -- no callbacks at all.

The situation at SLS isn't as bleak as what it appears to be at HLS (probably b/c we're smaller, being bottom of the class doesn't seem quite as relatively bad). You're not in great shape for DC, but you have a shot at SF with straight Ps. My guess is that a minority of SLS students going for DC w/ straight Ps were able to get employment there, and it was somewhere around 50-50 for SF. While that probably gives you a barely better than average chance of getting one of the two markets if you're smart about your bids and interview well, just to warn you ahead of time it will be very stressful.

That said, you only have roughly 1/3 of your grades for the year in, so don't stress yourself out too much about this; there's a good chance you'll be able to eek out 1-2 Hs over the next two quarters, and even if you don't, things will work out.

My biggest advice to you is to commit yourself to your extracurriculars. In particular, throw yourself into your journal work (if you're on a journal, and if you're not, join one), because if you can master the bluebook and get on LR--something best done through practice--your chances at DC/SF even with straight Ps go way up.

Anonymous User wrote:2L at HLS here. You can count DC out and probably SF as well (I've heard SF is also a fairly hard market to crack). I know plenty of people with strong grades who got shut out of DC. After my first year, I had 7 H's out of 10 grades -- received only two DC callbacks (out of six EIP interviews), and then only one DC offer (though I didn't accept the other DC callback anyway). If you make LR, then it might be a different story, but otherwise, straight P's will kill you in DC. Go for NYC.

Really try to make an effort during the rest of the year. Though you're at SLS, few firms will forgive straight P's. I know of several people who had straight P's that got totally shut out of EIP -- no callbacks at all.

Not to hijack, but that seems really rough. Isn't 7 Hs somewhere around top 20%?

smashedpumpkins wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:2L at HLS here. You can count DC out and probably SF as well (I've heard SF is also a fairly hard market to crack). I know plenty of people with strong grades who got shut out of DC. After my first year, I had 7 H's out of 10 grades -- received only two DC callbacks (out of six EIP interviews), and then only one DC offer (though I didn't accept the other DC callback anyway). If you make LR, then it might be a different story, but otherwise, straight P's will kill you in DC. Go for NYC.

Really try to make an effort during the rest of the year. Though you're at SLS, few firms will forgive straight P's. I know of several people who had straight P's that got totally shut out of EIP -- no callbacks at all.

Not to hijack, but that seems really rough. Isn't 7 Hs somewhere around top 20%?

+1

I'm a 1L at HLS and this story seems a bit too bleak. I've heard better from my 2L friends. Not to be rude, but I must ask, how are your interviewing skills?

I'm a 2L at HLS with a bit better grades but similar and, if my experience is any indicator, the OPs experience seems about par for the course. Fancy school names don't get you that far anymore.

OP, you still have another year so I would angle yourself to try and get as many Hs as you can (take classes w/ easy profs/more subjective) and spin a good "upward trend" story. Also, cast as wide of a net as possible and don't get your heart set on any one firm/position. It's doable, but it'll be a hard slog, OP. Good luck!

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2L at HLS with a bit better grades but similar and, if my experience is any indicator, the OPs experience seems about par for the course. Fancy school names don't get you that far anymore.

OP, you still have another year so I would angle yourself to try and get as many Hs as you can (take classes w/ easy profs/more subjective) and spin a good "upward trend" story. Also, cast as wide of a net as possible and don't get your heart set on any one firm/position. It's doable, but it'll be a hard slog, OP. Good luck!

Who exactly are they hiring then if those grades weren't good enough for 2/3 of the DC firms that the poster applied to? Are there that many YLS/top 10% SLS & HLS peeps that want to end up in DC?

Even the W&C bios for HLS attorneys show lots of cum laude grads (and even a few without honors); that's supposedly the most selective firm and even they aren't taking just magnas + LR.

(If the alternative explanation is that top 20% is good enough grades wise, but the candidate just didn't hit it off with his/her interviewer, that's a separate issue.)

Anonymous User wrote: Are there that many YLS/top 10% SLS & HLS peeps that want to end up in DC?

In my experience, DC was as if not slightly more popular than NY this year.

nobody who would open and read this thread cares about harvard. any SLS 2/3Ls have this all P situation last year?

Original HLS 2L poster here. I'd say my interviewing skills are actually quite good. I got callbacks at virtually every NYC firm with which I interviewed (and I got three offers out of the four NYC callbacks I took). My DC callback/offer was also quite good, and the firm was one of the harder ones to crack too (not W&C or Covington, but one tier down).

From what I've seen, the vast majority of people going to top DC firms had LR or some other special hook. My DC experience was not atypical.

At the traditional feeder schools to DC (ie. UVA, GULC, & GW), you had to be in the top 10-15% to even have a chance at DC this year. I'm top 5%-10% at GW, and had 4 offers & 6 callbacks in NYC, and only 2 callbacks in DC, with no offers. Friends at UVA and Georgetown had similar experiences. If the top of the DC feeder schools couldn't get in, I'm highly skeptical of straight Ps, even at Stanford. My advice -- don't confine yourself to only 2 markets, apply to NY, LA, etc to ensure you don't get completely screwed.

f the top of the DC feeder schools couldn't get in, I'm highly skeptical of straight Ps, even at Stanford.

I strongly doubt UVA, Georgetown, or GWU has any advantage in DC placement over HYS.

You can count DC out and probably SF as well (I've heard SF is also a fairly hard market to crack).

Yes, but for Stanford?

I strongly doubt UVA, Georgetown, or GWU has any advantage in DC placement over HYS.

+1

I'm anon @ Jan 12, 12:47pm, and I'm an SLS 2L. I stand by what I wrote above; things probably aren't quite as tough for an SLS student w/ straight Ps as an HLS student, given how much smaller of a class we have.

Incidentally, at SLS I don't think 7Hs at the end of 1L is top 20%. Most students have taken 13 classes at that point, and I imagine that more than 20% of the class ends up with 7/13 Hs. Does anyone else have a sense of this? My guess would be 3/13 is median, 7/13 is about top third, and 9/13 is about top 10%. I gotta say, though, I have no real basis for the guess other than my gut.

SLS 2L here. Was wondering if anyone had any idea how firms will take it if they see straight P's 2L year? Is this a deal breaker or cause for a cold offer? Assume v10.

Anonymous User wrote:SLS 2L here. Was wondering if anyone had any idea how firms will take it if they see straight P's 2L year? Is this a deal breaker or cause for a cold offer? Assume v10.

SLS 2L here. People I talked to said that most V10 firm didn't ask for transcripts. Some made u sign a thing where you agree to let them have access but maybe they do that to make sure you will graduate.

V10 is not going to no offer SLS students, they have a hard enough time recruiting people to the NY firms as is...unless you're talking Williams and Connelly I have no clue. Take a look at the employment info and email the 3Ls if you're nervous.

To the OP, I have a good friend who got straight P and got 1 offer in SF. While this person was targeting multiple markets (and had offers there) it was tough for him/her. The offers were sub V50 IIRC. I recommend you take classes full of 2L/3L cause we're pretty checked out ATM.

You should do better 3rd quarter cause by then all the 3Ls don't care and some of the 2Ls who do are prolly doing clinic (supreme court most likely)

New anon. here. How bad is straight Ps? I'm guessing bottom half, bottom third?

My main concern is the "prestige" of these V-ranked firms. What difference does it make if they're all paying the same? I don't mean to sound obtuse... but if you want to work in a firm and pay your loans back... and can be flexible (NYC, SF, LA, etc.) what's the big deal?

(1L and still learning why this matters.)

I don't think being straight will hurt your application at all. You might want to consider a more engaging PS topic though.

What difference does it make if they're all paying the same?

(1) Job security
(2) Exit options
(3) Sophistication of work
(4) Chance to get responsibility early

There might be some others I can't think of.

That said, I don't think the differences between firms is that drastic in terms of Vault rankings. For example, I don't think the exit options, unless coming from Wachtell, are significantly different between Vault 5 and Vault 10. And if you're interested in practice groups other than M&A, you would do well to look at firms that are particularly good in that field. As the Vault rankings are very M&A-centric, if you're interested in that type of work, the rankings are a decent indicator of the quality of the M&A groups (with some exceptions).

Anonymous User wrote:New anon. here. How bad is straight Ps? I'm guessing bottom half, bottom third?

My main concern is the "prestige" of these V-ranked firms. What difference does it make if they're all paying the same? I don't mean to sound obtuse... but if you want to work in a firm and pay your loans back... and can be flexible (NYC, SF, LA, etc.) what's the big deal?

(1L and still learning why this matters.)

If you get straight P's after 1L year you're likely bottom third. Most people get at least 1 H. Trying to figure out rank from 1 quarter is a trivial exercise. You could get all H's and then straight P's after. Or you could get straight P's first quarter and then all H's after.

In a general sense, vault rank is important for quality of work -- especially if you do corporate work -- and quality of work determines your marketability when you lateral. With litigation it may matter a little less because litigation is pretty much all the same (though arguably the bet-the-company work that goes to the top firms will be more interesting and complex).

Corporate work, will matter a lot. An associate at a top corporate firm will be exposed to bigger (billion dollar deals instead of millions), more complicated deals than a V50 associate. Goldman Sachs works mostly with s&c. Morgan Stanley with DPW. KKR/Blackstone with STB. They will farm work out elsewhere but not their big deals. Maybe they'll have a lower ranked firm do their run-of-the-mill credit default swap; but s&c orchestrated their $10B CDS with the German banks betting that Greece would default.

When the financial reserve and the investment banks were working out the loans that saved our economy, the three firms consistently at the table were S&C, DPW and STB. Those associates are in higher demand now because they have first hand experience on all that regulatory work (which is now booming b/c of the Dodd-Frank Act).

I want to caveat that I use the vault rankings loosely. There are too many differences between all of the Vault ranked firms to say that one has better exit options than another. Yeah Williams & Connelly is in the V10 but no CEO would hire them to do a deal over say White and Case. Why? because they're predominately a litigation firm. Just like if you want to do big-pharma litigation you'd go to Ropes & Gray or Goodwin Procter over any of the V5. And if you want to be in-house litigation counsel to a pharmaceutical, working in Ropes or Goodwin would be advantageous to working at a V5.

Corporate work, will matter a lot. An associate at a top corporate firm will be exposed to bigger (billion dollar deals instead of millions), more complicated deals than a V50 associate. Goldman Sachs works mostly with s&c. Morgan Stanley with DPW. KKR/Blackstone with STB. They will farm work out elsewhere but not their big deals. Maybe they'll have a lower ranked firm do their run-of-the-mill credit default swap; but s&c orchestrated their $10B CDS with the German banks betting that Greece would default.

Just want to add to this that second tier firms will often find themselves on these mega-deals, but not in lead roles, so the quality of work also suffers as a result.

the three firms consistently at the table were S&C, DPW and STB.

Don't forget Cleary.

A&O wrote:

Corporate work, will matter a lot. An associate at a top corporate firm will be exposed to bigger (billion dollar deals instead of millions), more complicated deals than a V50 associate. Goldman Sachs works mostly with s&c. Morgan Stanley with DPW. KKR/Blackstone with STB. They will farm work out elsewhere but not their big deals. Maybe they'll have a lower ranked firm do their run-of-the-mill credit default swap; but s&c orchestrated their $10B CDS with the German banks betting that Greece would default.

Just want to add to this that second tier firms will often find themselves on these mega-deals, but not in lead roles, so the quality of work also suffers as a result.

the three firms consistently at the table were S&C, DPW and STB.

Don't forget Cleary.

They might be the forgotten child. I didn't hear their name mentioned when I was interviewing with the above-mentioned-firms as the counterpart lawyers in the bailout deals.

Btw, when you pick a firm, don't use the same mentality as you did with picking law schools. The vault rankings don't correlate as much as USNWR in terms of exit options.

and finally, figure out who the predominant clients of a firm are and you'll know what the exit options are if you want to lateral in-house. The in-house positions usually come about from direct client relationships rather than resume bombing.