Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

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let/them/eat/cake
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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby let/them/eat/cake » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:28 pm

If OP is at Cornell the s/he is prob bottom 10%. also, Cornell c/o 2011 placed approx mid 40s % in biglaw. not sure about c/o 2012 yet but I think it was similar.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby A&O » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:30 pm

Average GPA isn't a particularly useful you really want to look at CPA cut offs.


Most firms' actual GPA cut-offs, while low, don't typically reach as low as bottom quarter, especially ITE. And besides that, most of my charts (including my Cornell chart) also have the "lowest GPA" taken. Even the lowest is way higher than what the OP has right now.

But post them. It would be fascinating to look at.


I can't do that, sorry. For the sake of credibility, I can perhaps post evidence that I have them, but not the entire charts.

Edit: I also have UChicago, though the grading system and my ignorance of their class-ranking make the data useless to me.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:33 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
A&O wrote:
What GPA charts? If you look at NLJ data and V100 data from before ITE Cornell placed as good or better than M.


Grade charts: Charts from the schools that show the average GPA of students who received callbacks or offers from a given firm.

I think that would be more accurate than your data.


Average GPA isn't a particularly useful you really want to look at CPA cut offs.


Desert Fox wrote:Average GPA isn't a particularly useful you really want to look at CPA cut offs.


It's certainly better than divining placement from NLJ250/V100 charts.

Really the best numbers would be median callback (what is the middle GPA XYZ firm called back from XYZ school), median offer, and lowest callback (the absolute cutoff).

I've seen the average GPAs at my school for a number of top firms. The very top firms had surprisingly low absolute cutoffs (medianish) and smaller, regional firms have much higher average callbacks than you might think (above median). I've compared with people at peer schools (other MVPBDCNs) and the differences are not great nor widespread across firms.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:35 pm

A&O wrote:
Average GPA isn't a particularly useful you really want to look at CPA cut offs.


Most firms' actual GPA cut-offs, while low, don't typically reach as low as bottom quarter, especially ITE. And besides that, most of my charts (including my Cornell chart) also have the "lowest GPA" taken. Even the lowest is way higher than what the OP has right now.

But post them. It would be fascinating to look at.


I can't do that, sorry. For the sake of credibility, I can perhaps post evidence that I have them, but not the entire charts.

Edit: I also have UChicago, though the grading system and my ignorance of their class-ranking make the data useless to me.


Why can't you post them?

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby A&O » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:37 pm

It's certainly better than divining placement from NLJ250/V100 charts.


Exactly. When looking at these charts, a lot of other factors have to be taken into account. With the GPA stuff, the factors are relatively minor. The biggest problems are sample-size (for instance, for 2007, I have only one data point for Covington at Cornell), and a minor degree of self-selection.

The only way one can adequately compare two schools based on the NLJ/V100 charts is if the schools have similar placement characteristics in terms of demographics and the type of work pursued. That's why I don't really think the comparison of Cornell to Boalt or Michigan or Virginia with respect to NYC placement is all that appropriate. I thought about this when I read his post, and I think the best "peer" school to compare Cornell to is Penn. Even then, the results of that comparison wouldn't be as useful as the GPA stuff.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:38 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
A&O wrote:
Average GPA isn't a particularly useful you really want to look at CPA cut offs.


Most firms' actual GPA cut-offs, while low, don't typically reach as low as bottom quarter, especially ITE. And besides that, most of my charts (including my Cornell chart) also have the "lowest GPA" taken. Even the lowest is way higher than what the OP has right now.

But post them. It would be fascinating to look at.


I can't do that, sorry. For the sake of credibility, I can perhaps post evidence that I have them, but not the entire charts.

Edit: I also have UChicago, though the grading system and my ignorance of their class-ranking make the data useless to me.


Why can't you post them?


Our schools don't like us doing it.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby A&O » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:38 pm

Why can't you post them?


Except for the UChicago and the NYU stuff, which can be found by any person good at Google, the rest of my charts were given to me in confidence. I don't want to betray that trust. And I strongly believe that exposing this information harms students at those schools.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
It's certainly better than divining placement from NLJ250/V100 charts.

Really the best numbers would be median callback (what is the middle GPA XYZ firm called back from XYZ school), median offer, and lowest callback (the absolute cutoff).

I've seen the average GPAs at my school for a number of top firms. The very top firms had surprisingly low absolute cutoffs (medianish) and smaller, regional firms have much higher average callbacks than you might think (above median). I've compared with people at peer schools (other MVPBDCNs) and the differences are not great nor widespread across firms.


No I don't think it's better to judge a schools overall placement. NLJ250 counts asses in seats. Cornell used to place well by placing a tons of it's grads into some large NYC firms. With their small class size this is hugely significant.

The data seems to point to MVPBDNC being roughly peer schools.

What would be really interesting is a list of where students at each school actually go 2L summer.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:41 pm

RVP11 wrote:Our schools don't like us doing it.


He's claiming to have multiple school's data. I doubt he attends them all.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby A&O » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:42 pm

NLJ250 counts asses in seats. Cornell used to place well by placing a tons of it's grads into some large NYC firms. With their small class size this is hugely significant.


The NLJ250 chart doesn't tell you whether students at other schools could have taken more seats than Cornell did if they chose to do so. The fact that they didn't might show you that Cornell had more students at one firm than another school at any given moment, but it doesn't show you the placement power of the school. You might want to google "self-selection."

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:46 pm

A&O wrote:
NLJ250 counts asses in seats. Cornell used to place well by placing a tons of it's grads into some large NYC firms. With their small class size this is hugely significant.


The NLJ250 chart doesn't tell you whether students at other schools could have taken more seats than Cornell did if they chose to do so. The fact that they didn't might show you that Cornell had more students at one firm than another school at any given moment, but it doesn't show you the placement power of the school. You might want to google "self-selection."


I doubt self selection makes a significant difference. If you want to claim Michigan has some slightly edge, who the fuck cares. But they are basically peer schools.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby A&O » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:49 pm

I doubt self selection makes a significant difference. If you want to claim Michigan has some slightly edge, who the fuck cares. But they are basically peer schools.


Huge difference, especially for a schools like Michigan, Virginia, and Berkeley. I'll let someone else point out why this is so obvious.

Aside from that, actual GPA charts are obviously superior data for placement than the NLJ/Vault stuff, so it's pointless even to debate the other stuff.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Our schools don't like us doing it.


He's claiming to have multiple school's data. I doubt he attends them all.


I do, too, but I'm not sharing them publicly. I admit that I have fallen victim to the fear that the more 2L/3Ls share publicly the less we'll be given to prepare for OCI (which is actually true at my school, where they on longer give out GPA lists).

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:53 pm

A&O wrote:
I doubt self selection makes a significant difference. If you want to claim Michigan has some slightly edge, who the fuck cares. But they are basically peer schools.


Huge difference, especially for a schools like Michigan, Virginia, and Berkeley. I'll let someone else point out why this is so obvious.

Aside from that, actual GPA charts are obviously superior data for placement than the NLJ/Vault stuff, so it's pointless even to debate the other stuff.


NLJ covers a much larger spectrum of firms than V100. While I can buy the self selection argument for v100 (because it's NYC centric), nearly all big law firms are NLJ250.

No they aren't obviously superior and I told you why. Cornell has some large firms in NYC that take tons of grads. One firm like that wipes out 3 smaller firms who prefer Michigan over Cornell.

I bet Mich and Cornell are within 5% of each other in terms of 2L's with near market paying jobs this summer.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:What would be really interesting is a list of where students at each school actually go 2L summer.


By far the most "interesting" - and pretty much conclusive - would be a chart of every school, every firm, and median/lowest callbacks and offers by GPA over the last 2 years. That would just about eliminate self-selection, which runs rampant in any list of where people are actually going.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby A&O » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:03 pm

I admit that I have fallen victim to the fear that the more 2L/3Ls share publicly the less we'll be given to prepare for OCI (which is actually true at my school, where they on longer give out GPA lists).


Not just that. I believe that some firms play favorites with some schools, and that revealing this information would harm this relationship and thus harm the students who could benefit from it.

Telling everyone here that Covington DC gave one callback at Cornell in DC to a student with a 3.83 in 2007 isn't super harmful, because it's obvious from it that Covington DC doesn't really care for the school.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:05 pm

Bottom 25% at any school outside of HYS means your life in corporate law is over. Your life in public interest law is dead in the water. You should pick up books on becoming a solo attorney. This is practical advice.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:15 pm

Are firms that utilize a school's OCI required to report employment data? I ask because I honestly don't think my school has any information on where I'm working this summer. I could be wrong, but the CSO counselors didn't seem to know what my summer plans were until I shared them. And the counselor wasn't taking notes, although she may have jotted it down after we spoke. I have never completed any kind of survey or questionnaire. I'm just curious how I am personally affecting my school's stats. Who's tracking that information?

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby A&O » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:16 pm

JazzOne wrote:Are firms that utilize a school's OCI required to report employment data? I ask because I honestly don't think my school has any information on where I'm working this summer. I could be wrong, but the CSO counselors didn't seem to know what my summer plans were until I shared them. And the counselor wasn't taking notes, although she may have jotted it down after we spoke. I have never completed any kind of survey or questionnaire. I'm just curious how I am personally affecting my school's stats. Who's tracking that information?


Often, firms will give such information to schools provided the schools maintain confidentiality.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby Kohinoor » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:27 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Nice attempt at Cornell trolling. It doesn't belong with the other schools listed placement wise.

I would stay with those grades. The fact that you are URM means you should definitely stay with those grades.


Yes it does.

I would stay with URM grades like that.

Is this based on actual evidence?

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Bottom 25% at any school outside of HYS means your life in corporate law is over. Your life in public interest law is dead in the water. You should pick up books on becoming a solo attorney. This is practical advice.


Should I tell my friend who frequents this site and got BigLaw with ~3.1 that his life in corporate law is over?

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby let/them/eat/cake » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:58 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Bottom 25% at any school outside of HYS means your life in corporate law is over. Your life in public interest law is dead in the water. You should pick up books on becoming a solo attorney. This is practical advice.


Should I tell my friend who frequents this site and got BigLaw with ~3.1 that his life in corporate law is over?


Don't you know that every time you use anecdotal evidence God kills a kitten?

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby Kohinoor » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:04 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Bottom 25% at any school outside of HYS means your life in corporate law is over. Your life in public interest law is dead in the water. You should pick up books on becoming a solo attorney. This is practical advice.


Should I tell my friend who frequents this site and got BigLaw with ~3.1 that his life in corporate law is over?

ITE?

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby A&O » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:05 pm

I know a sub-3.0 at MVP who got biglaw in 2009 OCI. Clearly not impossible, but still highly, highly unlikely to happen. And that person is a really good interviewer.

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Re: Possible bottom 25% at MVPNDC. What should I do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:44 pm

This is the OP. Thanks for all the advice. Brutal, but candid. I plan to call career services tomorrow to get the scoop on how URMs with my first semester grades fared in the short as well as long-term, and then really buckle down and make a decision. If it's true that BigLaw and realistically-paying PI (above 35K starting off) are 95% out of my reach now, and I really don't want to go solo (since don't you need some prior firm experience to be taken seriously as a solo, and going solo is essentially setting up your own business?) with massive amounts of non-dischargeable debt, then I really see no point in continuing. Frankly, I've had worse things happen to me than this, and it's a bummer, but I have to be cold-eyed and realistic about my options. I'm no longer a dew-eyed 22 year old lost in an idealistic fog (there are so many at my school, it's quite endearing hearing them talk at times), and this is an investment more than anything else, so I have to see it as dispassionately as possible. I only owe it to myself, since I don't want to be stuck with +100K more in non-dischargeable debt and career prospects marginally better than what I can have now if I just bail. (Granted it's a recession, but recruiters I know from years past have gotten to emailing me every week or so over the past two months with a new job opportunity in the 45-60K range, so the employment situation can't be all that bad in my niche right now. And I have great references from previous jobs, so there is a back-up plan of sorts, I suppose.)

I do fear, though, that I'm being a bit alarmist. I have a nasty habit of catastrophizing. With the half-scholly, I can throw the dice again and see where I land second semester (though I stand to lose another ~19K in the process). And I know that I can throw myself and work 12-16 hour days to see that I can get some good scores the second time around. What to do? What to do? This is killing me.




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