All B-'s on a B+ curve

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Anonymous User
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All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:45 am

I go to a T40 school with a B+ curve and finished my first semester with all B-'s. Is this hole I have dug too deep or should I stick it out, talk with my professors and give it another go next semester?

BlueDiamond
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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby BlueDiamond » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:46 am

runnnnnnnn

09042014
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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:50 am

You'll need all A-'s to get back to median.

If you wanted big law or something equally hard to get you are done.

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:36 am

Desert Fox wrote:You'll need all A-'s to get back to median.

If you wanted big law or something equally hard to get you are done.

Doesn't OP need all As to get back to median after second semester? Median is 3.33, OP has a 2.67. If OP got all A-s next semester OP would still only have a 3.17.

BlueDiamond
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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby BlueDiamond » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You'll need all A-'s to get back to median.

If you wanted big law or something equally hard to get you are done.

Doesn't OP need all As to get back to median after second semester? Median is 3.33, OP has a 2.67. If OP got all A-s next semester OP would still only have a 3.17.


yes needs straight A's to get back to median... runnnnnnnnnn

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Paichka
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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Paichka » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:02 pm

Talk to your professors before you do anything crazy, and take a good hard look at your prep method from last semester. On your exams, what were your primary mistakes? Did you fail to spot issues? Did you misapply the law? Did you get flustered and run out of time, or fail to fully walk the professor through your analysis to your conclusion? After you see what you did wrong on the exams, look at what you did to prepare for the exams. Did you stay up on the readings? Did you attend all of your classes or go to your professors' office hours? Did you use any supplements? Did you have a thorough outline, and do practice exams to work on your exam technique?

If your main problem was a lack of preparation, definitely stick it out. You can come back from those grades, though it won't be easy. If you're willing to put the time in, and you still think you want to be a lawyer, and it's worth it to you, I'd stick it out at least one more semester and see what happens. If you studied your ass off, did everything "right" according to the TLS success guides (Arrow's is particularly good, as is Xeoh's) and you still only got B- grades, then you might have a harder decision in front of you.

Good luck.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby MrKappus » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:15 pm

OP: 3.3 seems high for a T40 median. Also, no one on here can give you advice without knowing your financial situation, your non-law school options, how much you're paying now to attend, mitigating circumstances for this semester's exams (e.g., sickness), et al. You don't need TLS to tell you that if you are in the bottom 10% of a T40, you are unemployable. If you think you can improve, go for it, but since median at T40 is still a really terrible place to be ITE, and you'd need straight A's next semester to get there, you can probably figure this out for yourself.

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daesonesb
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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby daesonesb » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:50 pm

I think biglaw is not certain for your 2L summer, but assuming you can pull your socks up and get a few A's, it's not necessarily out for your job. Reasoning: you prob won't be able to get your overall GPA too much above median with your second semester grades and since you called it a t 40, I'm assuming your school is ranked below 30 which might hurt you a bit too. That said, being above median at said school in the long run, plus demonstrating interest in business will put you in a position to get some kind of firm job if you play your cards right.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby MrKappus » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:52 pm

^ "Biglaw is not certain for your 2L summer" might be understating the gravity of the situation. Just a bit.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby megaTTTron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I go to a T40 school with a B+ curve and finished my first semester with all B-'s. Is this hole I have dug too deep or should I stick it out, talk with my professors and give it another go next semester?


Give it another semester. Big changes though. Figure out what you're doing wrong on exams, change your study habits. Study smart not just hard. I know one student who was below median 1st semester and top 5% second. There's a lot of great threads on TLS that are really great. See Arrow's (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77628&hilit=succeed+T2), the NYU Student's (http://www.top-law-schools.com/success- ... chool.html) and, of course :mrgreen: , mine (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104810).

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Black-Blue » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:43 pm

daesonesb wrote:I think biglaw is not certain for your 2L summer, but assuming you can pull your socks up and get a few A's, it's not necessarily out for your job. Reasoning: you prob won't be able to get your overall GPA too much above median with your second semester grades and since you called it a t 40, I'm assuming your school is ranked below 30 which might hurt you a bit too. That said, being above median at said school in the long run, plus demonstrating interest in business will put you in a position to get some kind of firm job if you play your cards right.

Lol "too much above median"? He can get median ONLY if he gets straight As. He'd need A+ grades to get above median, and even then, probably not "too much" above median.

Since you usually need top 10-20% at T1 schools to get a job in OCI, he can only rely on local firms and his own connections.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:45 pm

Other25BeforeYou wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You'll need all A-'s to get back to median.

If you wanted big law or something equally hard to get you are done.

Doesn't OP need all As to get back to median after second semester? Median is 3.33, OP has a 2.67. If OP got all A-s next semester OP would still only have a 3.17.


Yes. Sorry I thought he said B median. Holy shit this guy is fucked.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:58 pm

Pretty sure median is not guaranteed to be a 3.33 on a B+ curve. Yes, it won't stray too far from it, but it doesn't have to be a 3.33. I can use some ridiculous examples with "never gonna happen" assumptions to show this. You could assume that everyone, or most people above median get pretty much all A's and A-'s. Then, everyone else could get a combination of 2 B+'s a B and a B-. Obviously this is crazy simplified (and depending on grade distribution I suppose it would be possible to have a higher median, although I doubt that would happen), I'm guessing if OP were to get 2 A's and 2 A-'s he/she would quite possibly be at median.

I'm a 0L so I don't really feel like I should be giving advice on this topic beyond this practically useless analysis.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:10 pm

I think I will be in a similar situation. My school is also a T40 but is located in my home state (so maybe that will give me a leg up), I got all B-'s on a B curve. My overall debt situation will be $60,000. Based solely on this information, should I begin to consider dropping out? Give up on OCI and any job making more than $40,000? I'm just crushed and have no idea what to do/think.

(putting it in here instead of making a new thread since our situations are so similar)

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:22 pm

With a 2.67 gpa, regardless of the curve, you're going to have a real uphill battle when it comes to getting a job anywhere. A gpa that far under 3.0 is just a difficult mental barrier to clear. When you factor in the curve, in this case a B+, it looks even more like OP is just absolutely screwed. Straight B-'s on that curve means that you are consistently just above the bottom of the class. It'd take some sort of miracle to go from consistently scraping the bottom of the barrel, to consistently competing for the top grades in a class. I don't know your debt situation, but if you're facing six figures, I'd just cut my losses.

To the other anon guy (the one with the B curve) you're really not that far off. You avoided C's which is a good thing in your situation. Firm jobs are going to be really really tough to come by, but you have a chance to get to median or above with a solid performance. On top of that, your debt situation isn't so bad. Median or slightly above it isn't a great place to be at a t40, but because of your debt situation and the fact that the school is in your home state, I'd say it's possible for you to hustle something (especially if your school is the strongest in it's state). Get your grades up, and apply to everything.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think I will be in a similar situation. My school is also a T40 but is located in my home state (so maybe that will give me a leg up), I got all B-'s on a B curve. My overall debt situation will be $60,000. Based solely on this information, should I begin to consider dropping out? Give up on OCI and any job making more than $40,000? I'm just crushed and have no idea what to do/think.

(putting it in here instead of making a new thread since our situations are so similar)


60K over a year or over three years?

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:41 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think I will be in a similar situation. My school is also a T40 but is located in my home state (so maybe that will give me a leg up), I got all B-'s on a B curve. My overall debt situation will be $60,000. Based solely on this information, should I begin to consider dropping out? Give up on OCI and any job making more than $40,000? I'm just crushed and have no idea what to do/think.

(putting it in here instead of making a new thread since our situations are so similar)


60K over a year or over three years?


Over three years I expect to have about $57,000 in debt overall, taking tuition increases into account. I had wanted a midlaw job in a fairly large secondary market (think Nashville, Charlotte, Birmingham, Raleigh, Richmond, etc.), but now I'm not sure how I'll be able to avoid working a tiny hick town at best. Do I have any chance of getting a job in a similar city?

Sorry to hijack the thread but any and all advice is appreciated.

09042014
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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think I will be in a similar situation. My school is also a T40 but is located in my home state (so maybe that will give me a leg up), I got all B-'s on a B curve. My overall debt situation will be $60,000. Based solely on this information, should I begin to consider dropping out? Give up on OCI and any job making more than $40,000? I'm just crushed and have no idea what to do/think.

(putting it in here instead of making a new thread since our situations are so similar)


60K over a year or over three years?


Over three years I expect to have about $57,000 in debt overall, taking tuition increases into account. I had wanted a midlaw job in a fairly large secondary market (think Nashville, Charlotte, Birmingham, Raleigh, Richmond, etc.), but now I'm not sure how I'll be able to avoid working a tiny hick town at best. Do I have any chance of getting a job in a similar city?

Sorry to hijack the thread but any and all advice is appreciated.


I don't know about your job prospects but with such little debt I'd be wary of dropping out so quickly. You'll probably start in shit law, but you won't be ruined with debt.

If you aren't okay with shit law drop out.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby IzziesGal » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:58 pm

Um, I think you guys are all being a bit too dramatic about OP's situation. If he can improve his grades next semester (meaning knock it out of the ballpark), he will still likely be okay. Having worked closely with big law recruiters, a shaky first semester of 1L year is not the kiss of death people on here make it out to be. In the words of several V20 recruiters, firms understand a not-so-stellar Fall 1L semester. Just kill it in the spring. By no means should you "runnnn" and drop out of law school. Jesus.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think I will be in a similar situation. My school is also a T40 but is located in my home state (so maybe that will give me a leg up), I got all B-'s on a B curve. My overall debt situation will be $60,000. Based solely on this information, should I begin to consider dropping out? Give up on OCI and any job making more than $40,000? I'm just crushed and have no idea what to do/think.

(putting it in here instead of making a new thread since our situations are so similar)


60K over a year or over three years?


Over three years I expect to have about $57,000 in debt overall, taking tuition increases into account. I had wanted a midlaw job in a fairly large secondary market (think Nashville, Charlotte, Birmingham, Raleigh, Richmond, etc.), but now I'm not sure how I'll be able to avoid working a tiny hick town at best. Do I have any chance of getting a job in a similar city?

Sorry to hijack the thread but any and all advice is appreciated.


It depends on exactly which city and exactly which school IMO...

Charlotte/Raleigh = Maybe? Nashville = No Richmond = No

Birmingham (and I'll go ahead and throw in Mobile and Montgomery) = Yes, it's possible if you hustle.


The reason for the answers I gave is mostly competition. If you're at Wake (t40 in NC) and are gunning for NC, maybe you have a chance at around median. I don't know enough about the market or the schools.

With regards to Nashville, from what I know, there aren't enough firm jobs to go around for someone at/near median to have a realistic shot (There isn't a t40 in Tennessee though, so you probably aren't aiming for Nashville). Richmond is the same way, I'd have to assume you're at W&L, but even they aren't placing people from median with any consistency, and from what I hear, there just aren't that many legal jobs to go around in the city (OCI at Richmond [yes I know it's not a t40] was MAJOR Bloodbath from what I've heard).

If you're going to 'Bama and you're at, around median. You have a shot at picking up a midlaw job for sure. You're at the very best school in the state, aiming for a market that out of staters aren't generally attracted to, and that is pretty xenophobic. You may not get the very best jobs, but a firm job is certainly possible (I don't think you're going to Bama though cuz the curve isn't a B).

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:07 pm

IzziesGal wrote:Um, I think you guys are all being a bit too dramatic about OP's situation. If he can improve his grades next semester (meaning knock it out of the ballpark), he will still likely be okay. Having worked closely with big law recruiters, a shaky first semester of 1L year is not the kiss of death people on here make it out to be. In the words of several V20 recruiters, firms understand a not-so-stellar Fall 1L semester. Just kill it in the spring. By no means should you "runnnn" and drop out of law school. Jesus.

I'm not going to take a stance on whether OP should drop out or not, because that is a personal call and there are a lot of factors we don't know, but I will just respond that:

1. OP didn't have a "shaky" first semester. OP got straight B- on a B+ curve. That's far worse than shaky.
2. OP would have to absolutely demolish next semester (essentially straight As) to get back to median.
3. Even if OP got back to median, that likely wouldn't help him/her whatsoever at OCI. Median at a T40 is not getting a job based on their grades.

If OP is looking at a lot of debt, has no ties to the legal job market, has an average resume, etc., then "Rah rah team! Go get em next semester!" is probably not TCR.

OP, I would definitely talk to some profs before doing anything drastic. Good luck to you.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:08 pm

IzziesGal wrote:Um, I think you guys are all being a bit too dramatic about OP's situation. If he can improve his grades next semester (meaning knock it out of the ballpark), he will still likely be okay. Having worked closely with big law recruiters, a shaky first semester of 1L year is not the kiss of death people on here make it out to be. In the words of several V20 recruiters, firms understand a not-so-stellar Fall 1L semester. Just kill it in the spring. By no means should you "runnnn" and drop out of law school. Jesus.


V20 firms won't touch anyone below median at anything but T6 schools.

Aqualibrium
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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:11 pm

IzziesGal wrote:Um, I think you guys are all being a bit too dramatic about OP's situation. If he can improve his grades next semester (meaning knock it out of the ballpark), he will still likely be okay. Having worked closely with big law recruiters, a shaky first semester of 1L year is not the kiss of death people on here make it out to be. In the words of several V20 recruiters, firms understand a not-so-stellar Fall 1L semester. Just kill it in the spring. By no means should you "runnnn" and drop out of law school. Jesus.



OP is in the bottom 10-20% of a t40 school. He/she needs a top 5 or 10% performance just to get back to median. Even at median, OP isn't going to be competitive for the people you are talking about (big law recruiters) to even be looking at his app. I think the kind of "shaky" start you're thinking of is going from top 40-50% to top 25%. Yeah they can understand that. However, going from bottom of the class, a point at which firms will not recruit, to median, a point at which most firms will not recruit (and especially not large firms), isn't the same thing.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby A&O » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:28 pm

In the words of several V20 recruiters, firms understand a not-so-stellar Fall 1L semester at a top law school.


Fixed.

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Re: All B-'s on a B+ curve

Postby IzziesGal » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:14 pm

I still disagree with everyone here. I see everyone's point, but I don't think advising someone to quit law school altogether over one bad semester is good advice. There are firms at the bottom of the Vault rankings that would probably look at OP if his next semester is good, if he has stellar work experience, extra-curriculars, etc. It's definitely true that someone who's median or below at a top 10 school is in a better situation (I take this for granted), but his situation is not hopeless. He didn't earn all Cs, Ds, and Fs, people. He got B minuses.




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