My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

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A&O
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:47 am

nyulawguy wrote:
underdawg wrote:
nyulawguy wrote:Do good work over the summer. Period. Once you get an offer, the summer is where they truly evaluate. If you do excellent work and they were to ding you based on a grade in a class, you probably don't really want to be there.

why do people say dumb shit like this? even if the firm is unusually picky about 2L grades, i'm sure OP would rather work there than be unemployed.


That is your assumption, but some people realize that one firm job is pretty much the same as the other, with certain exceptions regarding types of work. The difference maker is culture. Even if you don't realize it going in, you will in a few months on the job, Mr. 3L.


I guess the true take away from your argument is that... no one probably really wants to be at Gibson Dunn?
:roll:

nyulawguy
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby nyulawguy » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:50 am

A&O wrote:
nyulawguy wrote:
underdawg wrote:
nyulawguy wrote:Do good work over the summer. Period. Once you get an offer, the summer is where they truly evaluate. If you do excellent work and they were to ding you based on a grade in a class, you probably don't really want to be there.

why do people say dumb shit like this? even if the firm is unusually picky about 2L grades, i'm sure OP would rather work there than be unemployed.


That is your assumption, but some people realize that one firm job is pretty much the same as the other, with certain exceptions regarding types of work. The difference maker is culture. Even if you don't realize it going in, you will in a few months on the job, Mr. 3L.


I guess the true take away from your argument is that... no one probably really wants to be at Gibson Dunn?
:roll:


Not at all. I have plenty of friends who love it there. Rather, what I was saying is, if that were the case at any firm, one should consider whether one really wants to be there, or consider alternatives. People get so caught up in one firm or one offer, but there are lots of similar places out there. :wink:

A&O
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:52 am

Not at all. I have plenty of friends who love it there. Rather, what I was saying is, if that were the case at any firm, one should consider whether one really wants to be there, or consider alternatives. People get so caught up in one firm or one offer, but there are lots of similar places out there.


So... you're saying that it's a great place to work at, but one should really consider whether they want to be there?

You're not making sense. It's like you're telling me this place is great, but it really isn't because they consider 2L grades.

nyulawguy
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby nyulawguy » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:58 am

It was a general statement about firm summers anywhere.

A&O wrote:
Not at all. I have plenty of friends who love it there. Rather, what I was saying is, if that were the case at any firm, one should consider whether one really wants to be there, or consider alternatives. People get so caught up in one firm or one offer, but there are lots of similar places out there.


So... you're saying that it's a great place to work at, but one should really consider whether they want to be there?

You're not making sense. It's like you're telling me this place is great, but it really isn't because they consider 2L grades.

A&O
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:00 pm

It was a general statement about firm summers anywhere.


Okay, so applying your general statement to the particular facts of a certain situation, one really shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn?

Help me understand what's going on!

Aqualibrium
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:07 pm

A&O wrote:
It was a general statement about firm summers anywhere.


Okay, so applying your general statement to the particular facts of a certain situation, one really shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn?

Help me understand what's going on!



What's so hard to understand? Some people will fit at Gibson, some people wont. Everyone with an offer there should take a step back, remove the varnish that is whatever prestige the firm has, and evaluate whether or not that firm's environment is a good fit for them.

nyulawguy
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby nyulawguy » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:07 pm

All I was saying basically is that if you have a firm summer somewhere, and you do great work, but they decided to no-offer you on the basis of a slight grade slip, one should probably consider whether that is the type of enviroment that one wants to work in. If your performance and attitude mean less than a grade in a class, than perhaps that really isn't the place for you. That is true in general, and varies by individual. Some people like to think that law school grades are an indicator of ability, rather than just a metric of specific academic performance in a short timeframe, whereas others treat law school as a rite of passage where grades are a simplied way of sorting through some resumes. It just depends on your view, sense of self, and how much weight you really put on grades.

I am of the mindset that a single grade drop in a semester, combined with excellent attitude and work over the course of a summer, really shouldn't matter. A place that is so concerned with that grade, without referring to any particular place, is probably not a place that I would want to work, because it indicates a shallow focus on indicators that really don't apply to transactional work in general.


A&O wrote:
It was a general statement about firm summers anywhere.


Okay, so applying your general statement to the particular facts of a certain situation, one really shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn?

Help me understand what's going on!

A&O
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:08 am

Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:09 pm

You're just repeating yourself, so I'll repeat my question:

Applying your general statement to the particular facts of a certain situation, one really shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn?

nyulawguy
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby nyulawguy » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:13 pm

I don't work there, so I can't apply any facts. Everything the OP wrote is speculation, and I would just advise him to talk with recruiting or the hiring partner he interviewed with, if he is that concerned about it. It probably won't matter.

Like I said, my friends like it there, and that is the extent to anything I can say about that particular firm.

A&O wrote:You're just repeating yourself, so I'll repeat my question:

Applying your general statement to the particular facts of a certain situation, one really shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn?

A&O
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:08 am

Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:14 pm

I don't work there, so I can't apply any facts. Everything the OP wrote is speculation, and I would just advise him to talk with recruiting or the hiring partner he interviewed with, if he is that concerned about it. It probably won't matter.

Like I said, my friends like it there, and that is the extent to anything I can say about that particular firm.


So the single conclusion we can draw from your ode of wisdom is that we should really probably not want to work at a firm that considers 2L grades, except when it comes to certain firms. In this particular situation, this one firm should be excepted because your friends say it's DA BEST!

Thanks! I'm sure everyone here will keep this morsel of brilliant advice in mind.

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Grizz
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby Grizz » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:20 pm

nyulawguy wrote:All I was saying basically is that if you have a firm summer somewhere, and you do great work, but they decided to no-offer you on the basis of a slight grade slip, one should probably consider whether that is the type of enviroment that one wants to work in. If your performance and attitude mean less than a grade in a class, than perhaps that really isn't the place for you.


"The place for OP" is probably a firm that pays $100k + so he can efficiently repay his loans, then have good exit options. Have fun explaining the lack of an offer come nonexistent 3L LOLCI or in the future. This is just dumb.

A&O
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:22 pm

rad law wrote:
nyulawguy wrote:All I was saying basically is that if you have a firm summer somewhere, and you do great work, but they decided to no-offer you on the basis of a slight grade slip, one should probably consider whether that is the type of enviroment that one wants to work in. If your performance and attitude mean less than a grade in a class, than perhaps that really isn't the place for you.


"The place for OP" is probably a firm that pays $100k + so he can efficiently repay his loans, then have good exit options. Have fun explaining the lack of an offer come nonexistent 3L LOLCI or in the future. This is just dumb.


Unless it's Gibson Dunn, because his friends say it's a great place to work.

Am I the only one seeing the contradiction in his "advice?"

nyulawguy
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby nyulawguy » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:24 pm

I'd say the nugget of wisdom to takeaway is that people probably won't enjoy working with someone like yourself, who spends his/her time trying to twist advice that was meant to help the original poster maintain perspective, in an effort to belittle the person trying to help.

Also, one should also note that your inability to comprehend the written word, where I specifically said I don't know anything about the firm beyond what my friends say, seems to indicate a lack of perception that people should be wary of. The lens that you choose to view with affects your interpretation, and for whatever reason you seem keen on trying to twist what I say.

The bottom line of what I was saying is: Consider the implications of a behavior that worries you in your work choice. If a firm were to do x, y, or z, is that a place you really want to spend your time? It has nothing to do with any particular firm, but rather firms in general.




A&O wrote:
I don't work there, so I can't apply any facts. Everything the OP wrote is speculation, and I would just advise him to talk with recruiting or the hiring partner he interviewed with, if he is that concerned about it. It probably won't matter.

Like I said, my friends like it there, and that is the extent to anything I can say about that particular firm.


So the single conclusion we can draw from your ode of wisdom is that we should really probably not want to work at a firm that considers 2L grades, except when it comes to certain firms. In this particular situation, this one firm should be excepted because your friends say it's DA BEST!

Thanks! I'm sure everyone here will keep this morsel of brilliant advice in mind.

A&O
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:08 am

Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:33 pm

I'm not at all trying to belittle. I'm just trying to say that your advice just doesn't make sense. Maybe it's my fault. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Here's what you said:
(1) One really shouldn't want to work at a firm that no-offers on the basis of 2L grades.

Then I said:

(2) So, one really shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn.

You see, it's a classic syllogism:

One shouldn't want to work at a firm that does [x].
Gibson Dunn is a firm that does [x].
Therefore, one shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn.


But then you say:
(3) I don't know enough about Gibson Dunn to say either way.

But since making offers contingent on grades is a sufficient condition (as you state above), this is a contradiction.

In other words, this is the summary of your advice from the last 20 posts or whatever:
If your firm no-offers you on the basis of 2L grades, you should really consider whether you want to work there, except not really.

You see it now?

nyulawguy
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby nyulawguy » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:39 pm

A&O wrote:I'm not at all trying to belittle. I'm just trying to say that your advice just doesn't make sense. Maybe it's my fault. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Here's what you said:
(1) One really shouldn't want to work at a firm that no-offers on the basis of 2L grades.

Then I said:

(2) So, one really shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn.

You see, it's a classic syllogism:

One shouldn't want to work at a firm that does [x].
Gibson Dunn is a firm that does [x].
Therefore, one shouldn't want to work at Gibson Dunn.


But then you say:
(3) I don't know enough about Gibson Dunn to say either way.

But since making offers contingent on grades is a sufficient condition (as you state above), this is a contradiction.

In other words, this is the summary of your advice from the last 20 posts or whatever:
If your firm no-offers you on the basis of 2L grades, you should really consider whether you want to work there, except not really.

You see it now?


Except, I never said G&D is such a firm, nor do I have any reason to think it is. Generally, if people are upfront and proactive about a grade drop, it really isn't a big deal. A firm spends $50k or so per summer, so they don't really want to throw that money away on someone they don't intend to keep.

Perhaps a better takeway might be, "If you are concerned that your grades might result in a no offer at the end of the summer, you should talk to recruiting/the hiring partner in advance of your summer. Rather than working there and ending up with a no offer, it is better to be upfront so you can plan accordingly. Although, if you are concerned that your particular firm is a place that is going to ding you based on a single semester grade drop, perhaps you should consider whether you want to work at such a place to start with. Either way, just talk to the people at the firm, and be upfront. It is better coming from you than showing up on your transcript as a surprise."

And, that is that. Best of luck to OP, and everyone else.

A&O
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby A&O » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:46 pm

Except, I never said G&D is such a firm, nor do I have any reason to think it is.


This is a non-sequitur. What if it was Wachtell? What if it was Williams & Connolly? Would your "advice" still apply? Let's apply this assumption to any firm except White & Case and DLA Piper. Does your advice still apply?

Perhaps a better takeway might be, "If you are concerned that your grades might result in a no offer at the end of the summer, you should talk to recruiting/the hiring partner in advance of your summer.


So now you go from giving useless advice to giving harmful advice. Why draw attention to something that a firm would just as easily glance at? What would you hope to gain from recruiting/the partner by drawing their attention to it? Are you hoping they'll tell you you're going to get no-offered? They won't tell you anything. And so what if they did? Would you start applying for post-grad jobs now? Who's hiring the class of 2012 to start in fall 2012 right now?

What else would the firm do? Would they revoke your 2L summer offer? Wouldn't that be even more harmful? Shouldn't the original poster in this thread be glad that he can at least have some valuable 2L summer experience, which is pretty hard to come by in the private sector after fall recruiting is done?

In other words, your advice has very little upside, and the potential for disastrous consequences.

Anonymous User
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:20 pm

OP's drop is nothing. What about an actually substantial drop - I'm talking about getting a couple of B- or a C on your transcript.

Anonymous User
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP's drop is nothing. What about an actually substantial drop - I'm talking about getting a couple of B- or a C on your transcript.


curious about this as well...

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wiseowl
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby wiseowl » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:18 pm

another thread, another A&O derail.

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Lawguru
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby Lawguru » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:49 pm

I should point out that my drop might not be much, but I DID get 2 B- (2.8s...I have no idea how it happened). I also was fortunate to get a one or two better grades at the same time.

Edit: With that in mind, does that hurt me just that I have those dings on my record?

Sup Kid
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Re: My Grades -- a potential no offer waiting to happen?

Postby Sup Kid » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:19 am

Lawguru wrote:I should point out that my drop might not be much, but I DID get 2 B- (2.8s...I have no idea how it happened). I also was fortunate to get a one or two better grades at the same time.

Edit: With that in mind, does that hurt me just that I have those dings on my record?


If you get all B's or better next semester, and do good summer work, you shouldn't have a problem. Stop stressing over things you can no longer control and move forward.




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