2L losing complete hope

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Miracle
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby Miracle » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:30 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Miracle wrote:
Most people go to law school with 0 WE


Most is an overstatement. Whatever the case, some of those without WE are well connected otherwise (I have a few such classmates), some have gone to prestigious UGs (which does appeal to some interviewers, many of whom themselves have gone to prestigious UGs), some shoot for less competitive secondary markets they're from and some, amazingly enough, have useful science majors that allow them to shoot for notably safer IP jobs.

Whatever the case, my point is that interviewing skills are much less relevant than you imagine.


I agree and disagree with you. My point, or intention wasn't to argue with anyone but to have an educated discussion which is clearly impossible to curtain degree with curtain posters which is the reason why i removed myself from discussion until I saw your post which was educated post worthwhile responding.

By bringing up OP's interviewing skills, I was giving him an example of what could be wrong. There is a lot that goes in to hiring process. My overall suggestion for OP was to evaluate his performance and compare it to his classmates, and find what could be wrong. I don't see how my suggestion to OP shows ignorance of the economy we are in as suggested by curtain posters.

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Lokomani
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby Lokomani » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:33 pm

Miracle wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Miracle wrote:
Most people go to law school with 0 WE


Most is an overstatement. Whatever the case, some of those without WE are well connected otherwise (I have a few such classmates), some have gone to prestigious UGs (which does appeal to some interviewers, many of whom themselves have gone to prestigious UGs), some shoot for less competitive secondary markets they're from and some, amazingly enough, have useful science majors that allow them to shoot for notably safer IP jobs.

Whatever the case, my point is that interviewing skills are much less relevant than you imagine.


I agree and disagree with you. My point, or intention wasn't to argue with anyone but to have an educated discussion which is clearly impossible to curtain degree with curtain posters which is the reason why i removed myself from discussion until I saw your post which was educated post worthwhile responding.

By bringing up OP's interviewing skills, I was giving him an example of what could be wrong. There is a lot that goes in to hiring process. My overall suggestion for OP was to evaluate his performance and compare it to his classmates, and find what could be wrong. I don't see how my suggestion to OP shows ignorance of the economy we are in as suggested by curtain posters.




Do you speak english or just dabble?

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MrKappus
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby MrKappus » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:46 pm

Miracle wrote:I agree and disagree with you. My point, or intention wasn't to argue with anyone but to have an educated discussion which is clearly impossible to curtain degree with curtain posters which is the reason why i removed myself from discussion until I saw your post which was educated post worthwhile responding.

By bringing up OP's interviewing skills, I was giving him an example of what could be wrong. There is a lot that goes in to hiring process. My overall suggestion for OP was to evaluate his performance and compare it to his classmates, and find what could be wrong. I don't see how my suggestion to OP shows ignorance of the economy we are in as suggested by curtain posters.


I know this is off-topic, but are you seriously a law school applicant that can't spell "certain"? No wonder our industry's screwed.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:47 pm

To OP: I am also at one of CLS/NYU with no job either. It's tough right now, we are all in one big pile of jobless people and there is an unknonw number of folks ahead of us. I have to think there will be a point when all the high grades folks will have jobs, then the ones with relevant WE, then it will be our turn to be considered. We still have two or three months before we really need to stress out though.

As for post-law school, it's probably time to accept we missed the biglaw train and time to start setting ourselves up to be good well-rounded lawyers who can actually provide value for a firm or office immediately when we start working. Career services told me to get my grades up (the only substantive advice I got from them) which I think is a waste of time. Small firms and public interest offices don't care whether you got an A- in corporations, they care how much hand-holding they have to do in your first few months of working.

To other posters: There are a not-negligible number of CLS/NYU students unemployed. Like someone said above, it usually comes down to the resume if you don't have the grades. People with a few years of work experience had pretty good OCI performance this year even with median grades.

Telling OP he must be a bad interviewer if he hasn't landed a job from CLS/NYU shows a lack of understanding of the situation here and how the process works generally. It's not binary between great interviewee and poor one. There's a passing interview too, one that gets you the job if you have other qualifications. Probably 90% of the people at my school fall into that category, but not all of them have the other qualifications. The people who can consistently "wow" an interviewer have very good personalities in general- which is not something you can learn in the space of a few months.

formerbiglawpartner
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby formerbiglawpartner » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:54 pm

I am afraid this post may not help the OP, but I feel compelled to get this information out there. Law school admissions are about basically two things: your GPA and your LSAT score. Law school grades are about diligence, hard work, smarts, and some luck (often in terms of professors/sections.) Being hired by a BigLaw firm requires being fairly high in one's law school class, but it also requires far more, and I really want to get this information out there to prospective law students and 1Ls.

When you are in interviews on campus, representative attorneys from firms are sent to see if you could belong to "their club." Being smart and doing well in law school is a given. Here's what they won't tell you at law school. At this point, both appearance and interview skills/personality carry the day. Law firms want students who can not only do the work but who can foreseeably bring in clients. Clients want to work with smart, agreeable, and assertive attorneys. Attractiveness certainly doesn't hurt. Gone are the days when you could stick some genius back in the library stacks and make money off him or her. Every partner is expected to be a business getter--not just retainer-- these days. If you are brilliant but shy, government work or academia may be more appropriate for you.

With that in mind, invest in your interview wardrobe. You are spending a small fortune on tuition, so don't stint on your interview suits. (Ladies: err on the side of conservatism in your dress always.) Practice or develop your interviewing skills. Find an HR person who can help you or a family friend who interviews a lot for a living. If you are overweight, try to lose weight now. If you have skin problems, get into a good dermatologist now. You get the drift. Law schools didn't require photos for your application, but every firm has a facebook. While some of the older partners might be heavy, none of the new hires when I was in Big Law were. The world is a competitive place; maximize your chances in areas you can control.
Last edited by formerbiglawpartner on Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ogurty
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby ogurty » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:54 pm

Miracle wrote:i removed myself from discussion until I saw your post which was educated post worthwhile responding.


I lol'ed

concurrent fork
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby concurrent fork » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:55 pm

MrKappus wrote:
Miracle wrote:I agree and disagree with you. My point, or intention wasn't to argue with anyone but to have an educated discussion which is clearly impossible to curtain degree with curtain posters which is the reason why i removed myself from discussion until I saw your post which was educated post worthwhile responding.

By bringing up OP's interviewing skills, I was giving him an example of what could be wrong. There is a lot that goes in to hiring process. My overall suggestion for OP was to evaluate his performance and compare it to his classmates, and find what could be wrong. I don't see how my suggestion to OP shows ignorance of the economy we are in as suggested by curtain posters.


I know this is off-topic, but are you seriously a law school applicant GULC admit that can't spell "certain"? No wonder our industry's screwed.

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dresden doll
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby dresden doll » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Like someone said above, it usually comes down to the resume if you don't have the grades. People with a few years of work experience had pretty good OCI performance this year even with median grades.

Telling OP he must be a bad interviewer if he hasn't landed a job from CLS/NYU shows a lack of understanding of the situation here and how the process works generally. It's not binary between great interviewee and poor one. There's a passing interview too, one that gets you the job if you have other qualifications. Probably 90% of the people at my school fall into that category, but not all of them have the other qualifications.


This should be stickied. The personality/interviewing skills babble is the most tiring feature of the employment forum as a whole.

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thecilent
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby thecilent » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:02 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Like someone said above, it usually comes down to the resume if you don't have the grades. People with a few years of work experience had pretty good OCI performance this year even with median grades.

Telling OP he must be a bad interviewer if he hasn't landed a job from CLS/NYU shows a lack of understanding of the situation here and how the process works generally. It's not binary between great interviewee and poor one. There's a passing interview too, one that gets you the job if you have other qualifications. Probably 90% of the people at my school fall into that category, but not all of them have the other qualifications.


This should be stickied. The personality/interviewing skills babble is the most tiring feature of the employment forum as a whole.

So I guess you disagree with formerbiglawpartner

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wiseowl
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby wiseowl » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:05 pm

If an alien landed in my living room and asked me to show him what TLS was like, I'd point it to this freight train full of toxic waste that has just run off a cliff overlooking a major metropolitan area of a thread.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:10 pm

formerbiglawpartner wrote:I am afraid this post may not help the OP, but I feel compelled to get this information out there. Law school admissions are about basically two things: your GPA and your LSAT score. Law school grades are about diligence, hard work, smarts, and some luck (often in terms of professors/sections.) Being hired by a BigLaw firm requires being fairly high in one's law school class, but it also requires far more, and I really want to get this information out there to prospective law students and 1Ls.

When you are in interviews on campus, representative attorneys from firms are sent to see if you could belong to "their club." Being smart and doing well in law school is a given. Here's what they won't tell you at law school. At this point, both appearance and interview skills/personality carry the day. Law firms want students who can not only do the work but who can foreseeably bring in clients. Clients want to work with smart, agreeable, and assertive attorneys. Attractiveness certainly doesn't hurt. Gone are the days when you could stick some genius back in the library stacks and make money off him or her. Every partner is expected to be a business getter--not just retainer-- these days. If you are brilliant but shy, government work or academia may be more appropriate for you.

With that in mind, invest in your interview wardrobe. You are spending a small fortune on tuition, so don't stint on your interview suits. (Ladies: err on the side of conservatism in your dress always.) Practice or develop your interviewing skills. Find an HR person who can help you or a family friend who interviews a lot for a living. If you are overweight, try to lose weight now. If you have skin problems, get into a good dermatologist now. You get the drift. Law schools didn't require photos for your application, but every firm has a facebook. While some of the older partners might be heavy, none of the new hires when I was in Big Law were. The world is a competitive place; maximize your chances in areas you can control.



Went to a small panel discussion at school and every attorney on that panel said almost the same thing as this person.

Your dress, appearance and personality matter. The attorneys speaking that day also added that these things not only play a factor for the reasons cited but also because they want to know if you're someone they would enjoy spending loooooong working hours with. Other than that, everything OP said was dead on to what I heard that day.

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dresden doll
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby dresden doll » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:12 pm

thecilent wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Like someone said above, it usually comes down to the resume if you don't have the grades. People with a few years of work experience had pretty good OCI performance this year even with median grades.

Telling OP he must be a bad interviewer if he hasn't landed a job from CLS/NYU shows a lack of understanding of the situation here and how the process works generally. It's not binary between great interviewee and poor one. There's a passing interview too, one that gets you the job if you have other qualifications. Probably 90% of the people at my school fall into that category, but not all of them have the other qualifications.


This should be stickied. The personality/interviewing skills babble is the most tiring feature of the employment forum as a whole.

So I guess you disagree with formerbiglawpartner


I don't disagree that people should invest in their appearance before OCI. Looking sharp can only help. However, when it's the hiring committee, as opposed to your interviewer, that's deciding who to call back, I hardly think that having looked good will help. It's not as if you can submit your pic with the resume and grades for their consideration.

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Lawquacious
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby Lawquacious » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:16 pm

wiseowl wrote:If an alien landed in my living room and asked me to show him what TLS was like, I'd point it to this freight train full of toxic waste that has just run off a cliff overlooking a major metropolitan area of a thread.


:lol:
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/arch ... 73920a.jpg

It could always be worse

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thecilent
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby thecilent » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:17 pm

dresden doll wrote:
thecilent wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Like someone said above, it usually comes down to the resume if you don't have the grades. People with a few years of work experience had pretty good OCI performance this year even with median grades.

Telling OP he must be a bad interviewer if he hasn't landed a job from CLS/NYU shows a lack of understanding of the situation here and how the process works generally. It's not binary between great interviewee and poor one. There's a passing interview too, one that gets you the job if you have other qualifications. Probably 90% of the people at my school fall into that category, but not all of them have the other qualifications.


This should be stickied. The personality/interviewing skills babble is the most tiring feature of the employment forum as a whole.

So I guess you disagree with formerbiglawpartner


I don't disagree that people should invest in their appearance before OCI. Looking sharp can only help. However, when it's the hiring committee, as opposed to your interviewer, that's deciding who to call back, I hardly think that having looked good will help. It's not as if you can submit your pic with the resume and grades for their consideration.

True true

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DukeCornell
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby DukeCornell » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:21 pm

RPK34 wrote:I'm not sure what's less surprising: That there are NYU/Columbia grads having a tough time, or that this thread involved into a race debate.


:lol:

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prezidentv8
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby prezidentv8 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:32 pm

wiseowl wrote:If an alien landed in my living room and asked me to show him what TLS was like, I'd point it to this freight train full of toxic waste that has just run off a cliff overlooking a major metropolitan area of a thread.


Well stated broski.

Edit: I mean, I'm as frustrated and unemployed as the next frustrated and unemployed guy. But, to the OP - take a deep breath, consider where you are at in the big picture, and consider and make some adjustments to what it is that you're doing. And then, put your head down, hold on to the ball, get the shoulders square and pads low, and just run forward.

Edit2: Also, bitching about it makes me feel better.
Last edited by prezidentv8 on Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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DukeCornell
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby DukeCornell » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:34 pm

With that in mind, invest in your interview wardrobe. You are spending a small fortune on tuition, so don't stint on your interview suits. (Ladies: err on the side of conservatism in your dress always.) Practice or develop your interviewing skills. Find an HR person who can help you or a family friend who interviews a lot for a living. If you are overweight, try to lose weight now :lol: . If you have skin problems, get into a good dermatologist now :lol: :lol: . You get the drift. Law schools didn't require photos for your application, but every firm has a facebook. While some of the older partners might be heavy, none of the new hires when I was in Big Law were. The world is a competitive place; maximize your chances in areas you can control.


...glad I'm sexy as fuck and dress very well. :mrgreen:

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ResolutePear
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:44 pm

thecilent wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
thecilent wrote:
dresden doll wrote:This should be stickied. The personality/interviewing skills babble is the most tiring feature of the employment forum as a whole.

So I guess you disagree with formerbiglawpartner


I don't disagree that people should invest in their appearance before OCI. Looking sharp can only help. However, when it's the hiring committee, as opposed to your interviewer, that's deciding who to call back, I hardly think that having looked good will help. It's not as if you can submit your pic with the resume and grades for their consideration.

True true


O rly? As a guy, don't wear a tie and you'll see how far that theory gets.

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Veyron
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby Veyron » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:44 pm

-
Last edited by Veyron on Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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megaTTTron
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby megaTTTron » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:10 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
thecilent wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
I don't disagree that people should invest in their appearance before OCI. Looking sharp can only help. However, when it's the hiring committee, as opposed to your interviewer, that's deciding who to call back, I hardly think that having looked good will help. It's not as if you can submit your pic with the resume and grades for their consideration.

True true


O rly? As a guy, don't wear a tie and you'll see how far that theory gets.


TCR.

uvahooo
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby uvahooo » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:22 pm

Some of the stuff on this thread must be true. Where did OP go to defend himself/add to the convo?

or this maybe a JDU troller.

LongRifle
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby LongRifle » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:23 pm

formerbiglawpartner wrote:
When you are in interviews on campus, representative attorneys from firms are sent to see if you could belong to "their club." Every partner is expected to be a business getter--not just retainer-- these days. If you are brilliant but shy, government work or academia may be more appropriate for you.


On campus interviewers are often resume collects. Anyone going into big law is not going to greet clients or be developing a practice. Those are not the characteristics that are being screened for by big firms. This year, big firms are hiring top 1/3 (URM or top 1/2 with w.e.) at T14s that are "brilliant and shy." Partnership characteristics are screened through the promotion track.

OP, chill out. It is way to early to be worried. Most govt/crim places start interviews later this month. You can still get DOJ through the volunteer program, and the only thing you've missed out in the crim field is Manhattan/Philly/DC/SF. In any event C/N will hook you up with something equal anyway.

It sucks though, 1/2 of the T14 is not getting a big law job, and median students with work experience, social skills and demonstrated interests are being shut out of NY/Philly/DC/West Coast DA/PD/Govt programs and having to strive through rejections to find a quality volunteer job that is in their interest area.

uvahooo
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby uvahooo » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:26 pm

LongRifle wrote:
formerbiglawpartner wrote:
When you are in interviews on campus, representative attorneys from firms are sent to see if you could belong to "their club." Every partner is expected to be a business getter--not just retainer-- these days. If you are brilliant but shy, government work or academia may be more appropriate for you.


On campus interviewers are often resume collects. Anyone going into big law is not going to greet clients or be developing a practice. Those are not the characteristics that are being screened for by big firms. This year, big firms are hiring top 1/3 (URM or top 1/2 with w.e.) at T14s that are "brilliant and shy." Partnership characteristics are screened through the promotion track.

OP, chill out. It is way to early to be worried. Most govt/crim places start interviews later this month. You can still get DOJ through the volunteer program, and the only thing you've missed out in the crim field is Manhattan/Philly/DC/SF. In any event C/N will hook you up with something equal anyway.

It sucks though, 1/2 of the T14 is not getting a big law job, and median students with work experience, social skills and demonstrated interests are being shut out of NY/Philly/DC/West Coast DA/PD/Govt programs and having to strive through rejections to find a quality volunteer job that is in their interest area.


You need to understand that if you want to get A job it might not be your first choice. You need to be more flexible and target secondary markets and me more flexible with your plans.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:31 pm

That is part of the problem. I have applied to almost every govt agency out there, including different DOJ areas. It is becoming harder to get those jobs and most of them don't give offers, so have to go through this hell all over again for an ever more limited number of spots. Another issue is that I have worked in crim pros before, and have little desire to continue doing it. I have yet to explore transactional work, which have developed some interest in but is near impossible to find. If I had my way, I would have loved a job w/ the CIA, but was rejected of course. And even if snag a govt job, still have the problem of the debt w/ only an unreliable LRAP program to support you. In honesty, I didn't go to CLS/NYU to become a DA or PD, if wanted to do that it would have been better to go a school w/ stronger connections to those and/or cheaper tuition. That has become one of the irritating things get treated w/ when fail oci, people try to tell you should be happy being relegated to some govt/PI job you have no interest in and whole lectures about how big law isn't everything it seems, when they instantly turn around bragging about their holiday care packages they just got. Feel like I have a more realistic picture of what big law is and the current legal market than my classmates.

LongRifle
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Re: 2L losing complete hope

Postby LongRifle » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:33 pm

uvahooo wrote:
LongRifle wrote:
formerbiglawpartner wrote:
When you are in interviews on campus, representative attorneys from firms are sent to see if you could belong to "their club." Every partner is expected to be a business getter--not just retainer-- these days. If you are brilliant but shy, government work or academia may be more appropriate for you.


On campus interviewers are often resume collects. Anyone going into big law is not going to greet clients or be developing a practice. Those are not the characteristics that are being screened for by big firms. This year, big firms are hiring top 1/3 (URM or top 1/2 with w.e.) at T14s that are "brilliant and shy." Partnership characteristics are screened through the promotion track.

OP, chill out. It is way to early to be worried. Most govt/crim places start interviews later this month. You can still get DOJ through the volunteer program, and the only thing you've missed out in the crim field is Manhattan/Philly/DC/SF. In any event C/N will hook you up with something equal anyway.

It sucks though, 1/2 of the T14 is not getting a big law job, and median students with work experience, social skills and demonstrated interests are being shut out of NY/Philly/DC/West Coast DA/PD/Govt programs and having to strive through rejections to find a quality volunteer job that is in their interest area.


You need to understand that if you want to get A job it might not be your first choice. You need to be more flexible and target secondary markets and me more flexible with your plans.


Thanks for that personalized advice. You'd be great in career services.




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