C & F nightmare

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Anonymous User
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C & F nightmare

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:09 am

I had a really bad relationshiop with the small shitty law firm that I interned with as a 1L. I never had any misconduct problem, was never expelled .. etc. It's more to do with interpersonal issues. It was a rather poisonous setting and some people continued to backstab me after I had left. I never did anything really bad, let alone illegal. I was just not careful enough - not sociall awkward, but did not work hard at making people like me enough not to pick on me and blame me when something (of which I was not responsible) happened.


I did not realize how risky this is, until I started prepping for the MPRE. According to the MPRE review materials: Apparently the state bar will send them a custom form or something and ask them to comment on my suitability.


I am freaking out .... although I otherwise have a really clean, "boring" background/record.

plum
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby plum » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:45 am

is your boss capable of being a professional adult? or are they psycho or something. i would try to sit down with them and talk frankly about the situation.

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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:14 am

the problem is that there are very few people in that shitty firm. this is the problem - the matter would have been much much better if the firm was large enough.

I doubt they can make substantiated claim about me - because I did not really do anything to begin with. However, what if the "boss" tell the bar examiners that I am a backstabbing bitch or mentally unstable (which I am not, of course!)

I lost contact with them a while back. I asked the HR person for my W2 form last January but they willingly withheld it (I sent my requests to both the HR and the "boss") Finally, I got my refund by complaining to IRS and 4 months later.

I will tell the bar examiners about the withholding of the W2 form, attaching akk my email requests to my C & F forms. My intention is not to bitch about them, but to prove that I have lost contact with the firm.

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Lawquacious
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:19 am

Bottom line is that if you really didn't do anything unethical I think you'll be fine with C & F. Worst case scenario, I think they would make you explain the situation to a review board, and I think unless there was clear proof you had acted unethically or illegally this won't prevent you from passing C & F. Of course it's hard to know what exactly you are talking about without full details, and this is also assuming that you didn't actually do something majorly unethical that you got caught for (even then I think you could work through C & F as long as you were honest about what you did and could demonstrate you learned from the mistake). From what I gather, the one thing C & F committees usually really hate and what can be the 'kiss of death' is dishonesty in the C & F process itself.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:45 am

from what i heard it's like someone sent a few anonymous emails to the whole firm "bitching" about an associate being a cocksucker/asskisser and being a stupid law graduate who did not deserve to be there.... this is what I gathered. However, this type of thing happened to my friend in my previous job and no one ever did anything because the messages were not of the threatening type and there are First Amendment issues.

I did not send out those emails but I was the one who got suspected. Maybe they suspect other people but suspect me the most. Anyway, I am glad that I won't ever work in that setting anymore.

Jessep
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Jessep » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:56 pm

I don't imagine you are the first or last person to have a rocky relationship during an internship. I'd talk to your career services office. Unless you are the one who sent out those emails, you will be fine...and even if you did send them out you would probably be okay if you disclosed it to the bar and explained why you would never do it again.

Anonymous User wrote:there are First Amendment issues.

This is more worrisome.

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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:13 pm

I suppose if I were the boss I would just ask my subordinates to ignore any nonthreatening emails because the email senders have right to free speech. Indeed, I would be interested as to what motivated those mails in the first place.

by the way, one of our professors even encouraged us to send anonymous emails... I cringed. They could become abusive.

Jessep
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Jessep » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I suppose if I were the boss I would just ask my subordinates to ignore any nonthreatening emails because the email senders have right to free speech.

Private employees generally do not have a right to free speech in the employment context, and certainly not in this case. The 1st amendment generally requires state action. The boss (non-governmental) didn't do anything because he'd need to get a court order to have google turn over the IP address, and that's not going to happen given the email descriptions.

I point this out at the risk of sounding like a pompous ass, but you are going to be a lawyer (probably) so you should have a basic understanding of the 1st amendment. You will embarrass yourself if you say this type of stuff in front of lawyers. Hopefully I saved you some future embarrassment.

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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:51 pm

thanks a lot.
I understnad that in a private setting people can get fired for whatever reasons, e.g. making nonthreatening speech that the boss does not like. The thing is that the boss could not possibly have obtained a court order because nonthreatening emails are protected by the first amendment, no?

Renzo
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Renzo » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:14 pm

1) Your posts in this thread do in fact make you seem a little bit nutty.

2) did you do anything illegal or unethical in your old job -OR-

3) did you a) just not get along or b) weren't a very good employee?

4) You have no 1st amendment rights against your employer. Ever.


If (3), then you have nothing to worry about. If (2), you might need to worry. The board isn't going to ask for you former boss' unsubstantiated opinion on you as a person; either there are facts the old firm could relay that make you look morally unsuitable to be a lawyer or there aren't. If you think they are going to lie, that's a different concern entirely (and a bit paranoid, in my opinion).

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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:21 pm

(3).
I did not do anything illegal or immoral.

I would not have been so paranoid if I had not read stories in which opinions about former employers or professors could hurt.

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dresden doll
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby dresden doll » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:26 pm

Renzo wrote:
The board isn't going to ask for you former boss' unsubstantiated opinion on you as a person; either there are facts the old firm could relay that make you look morally unsuitable to be a lawyer or there aren't. If you think they are going to lie, that's a different concern entirely (and a bit paranoid, in my opinion).


THIS. The board doesn't care whether you were liked as a person. That sort of thing might screw you over when you look for your next employment, but it won't matter for C and F purposes.

Also, unless they can present clear evidence, I wouldn't worry about them successfully accusing you of any ethical wrongdoings.

Bottom line: if you did nothing wrong, don't worry about it. It's a C and F examination, not a personality contest.

Black-Blue
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Black-Blue » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I did not realize how risky this is, until I started prepping for the MPRE. According to the MPRE review materials: Apparently the state bar will send them a custom form or something and ask them to comment on my suitability.

How do they know you interned at that firm anyways?

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Lawquacious
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:08 pm

Renzo wrote:4) You have no 1st amendment rights against your employer. Ever.


If you are employed by a state or fed agency then I think 1st amendment can come into play as a protected right against employer, but generally 1st amendment does only protect from STATE action against free speech (among other things). This doesn't mean there isn't some other basis an employer can be held liable on for inappropriately handling something that was said or for wrongfully discharging (not to say that applies here though).

Bottom line is that 1st amendment really doesn't apply here in any way that I see- it is a potential C & F issue that is probably a non-issue.

EDIT: please do correct if first part is wrong- I suppose perhaps if you are a fed or state employee your speech could be limited due to scope of employment and employee responsibilities (obv with secret clearances etc you can't just say what you want to whoever- there are confidentiality requirements), but I would still think even in the scope of employment for fed or state actor if they restricted your freedom of speech or expression in some way not nec for the position you could have a right to exert against them in that case..

Renzo
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Re: C & F nightmare

Postby Renzo » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:48 am

Lawquacious wrote:
Renzo wrote:4) You have no 1st amendment rights against your employer. Ever.


If you are employed by a state or fed agency then I think 1st amendment can come into play as a protected right against employer, but generally 1st amendment does only protect from STATE action against free speech (among other things). This doesn't mean there isn't some other basis an employer can be held liable on for inappropriately handling something that was said or for wrongfully discharging (not to say that applies here though).

Bottom line is that 1st amendment really doesn't apply here in any way that I see- it is a potential C & F issue that is probably a non-issue.

EDIT: please do correct if first part is wrong- I suppose perhaps if you are a fed or state employee your speech could be limited due to scope of employment and employee responsibilities (obv with secret clearances etc you can't just say what you want to whoever- there are confidentiality requirements), but I would still think even in the scope of employment for fed or state actor if they restricted your freedom of speech or expression in some way not nec for the position you could have a right to exert against them in that case..

No, you're right. You have 1st amendment rights against the state, including if the state is your employer; of course they are not unlimited, but they exist. Your private employer, however, can forbid you from talking about or saying anything they choose.




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