Alternative employment routes for lawyers... Forum

[QandAphorism]

I have a few friends who, after graduating law school, decided working as an attorney isn't their ideal path anymore.

They interviewed well, received a few medium-to-big-law offers which would have surely involved 70+ hours a week, but turned that path down altogether. One essentially said he decided that just isn't the lifestyle he can see himself being happy in.

They both do quite well and are into six figures for income, but will likely never work as attorneys, despite the JD. One is a marketing director, the other is in medical equipment.

What other industries, markets, alternative careers/roles, etc, do you see lawyers becomming an attractive commodity for in the next 3-5 years?

[reasonable_man]

I have a few friends who, after graduating law school, decided working as an attorney isn't their ideal path anymore.

They interviewed well, received a few medium-to-big-law offers which would have surely involved 70+ hours a week, but turned that path down altogether. One essentially said he decided that just isn't the lifestyle he can see himself being happy in.

They both do quite well and are into six figures for income, but will likely never work as attorneys, despite the JD. One is a marketing director, the other is in medical equipment.

What other industries, markets, alternative careers/roles, etc, do you see lawyers becomming an attractive commodity for in the next 3-5 years?

None. Lawyers do well in other fields despite being lawyers, not because of it.

[El_Gallo]

I have a few friends who, after graduating law school, decided working as an attorney isn't their ideal path anymore.

They interviewed well, received a few medium-to-big-law offers which would have surely involved 70+ hours a week, but turned that path down altogether. One essentially said he decided that just isn't the lifestyle he can see himself being happy in.

They both do quite well and are into six figures for income, but will likely never work as attorneys, despite the JD. One is a marketing director, the other is in medical equipment.

What other industries, markets, alternative careers/roles, etc, do you see lawyers becomming an attractive commodity for in the next 3-5 years?

None. Lawyers do well in other fields despite being lawyers, not because of it.

+1. Why spend 150 grand and waste 3 years of your life if you already know that you don't want to practice law? Just go do what you want to do.

[QandAphorism]

I have a few friends who, after graduating law school, decided working as an attorney isn't their ideal path anymore.

They interviewed well, received a few medium-to-big-law offers which would have surely involved 70+ hours a week, but turned that path down altogether. One essentially said he decided that just isn't the lifestyle he can see himself being happy in.

They both do quite well and are into six figures for income, but will likely never work as attorneys, despite the JD. One is a marketing director, the other is in medical equipment.

What other industries, markets, alternative careers/roles, etc, do you see lawyers becomming an attractive commodity for in the next 3-5 years?

None. Lawyers do well in other fields despite being lawyers, not because of it.

I don't think you're thinking creatively enough.... are you saying there aren't aren't any practical skills honed or useful knowledge developed in law school that might prime a person to function well in a role outside of being an attorney?

[QandAphorism]

I have a few friends who, after graduating law school, decided working as an attorney isn't their ideal path anymore.

They interviewed well, received a few medium-to-big-law offers which would have surely involved 70+ hours a week, but turned that path down altogether. One essentially said he decided that just isn't the lifestyle he can see himself being happy in.

They both do quite well and are into six figures for income, but will likely never work as attorneys, despite the JD. One is a marketing director, the other is in medical equipment.

What other industries, markets, alternative careers/roles, etc, do you see lawyers becomming an attractive commodity for in the next 3-5 years?

None. Lawyers do well in other fields despite being lawyers, not because of it.

+1. Why spend 150 grand and waste 3 years of your life if you already know that you don't want to practice law? Just go do what you want to do.

Using this logic... why would anyone get almost any bachelor's degree? Most people post-UG pre-Grad school work in some sales capacity or another. Almost all business is essentially sales in one form or another. Why wouldn't people just skip the UG nonsense and go straight into sales post-high school, if we assume this approach above? Surely there's some value to the degree, no?

[reasonable_man]

I have a few friends who, after graduating law school, decided working as an attorney isn't their ideal path anymore.

They interviewed well, received a few medium-to-big-law offers which would have surely involved 70+ hours a week, but turned that path down altogether. One essentially said he decided that just isn't the lifestyle he can see himself being happy in.

They both do quite well and are into six figures for income, but will likely never work as attorneys, despite the JD. One is a marketing director, the other is in medical equipment.

What other industries, markets, alternative careers/roles, etc, do you see lawyers becomming an attractive commodity for in the next 3-5 years?

None. Lawyers do well in other fields despite being lawyers, not because of it.

I don't think you're thinking creatively enough.... are you saying there aren't aren't any practical skills honed or useful knowledge developed in law school that might prime a person to function well in a role outside of being an attorney?

Please remove your head from the sand. Law school hardly teaches you "practiceal skills" that are useful to the practice of law, let alone some unrelated profession.

[Renzo]

I have a few friends who, after graduating law school, decided working as an attorney isn't their ideal path anymore.

They interviewed well, received a few medium-to-big-law offers which would have surely involved 70+ hours a week, but turned that path down altogether. One essentially said he decided that just isn't the lifestyle he can see himself being happy in.

They both do quite well and are into six figures for income, but will likely never work as attorneys, despite the JD. One is a marketing director, the other is in medical equipment.

What other industries, markets, alternative careers/roles, etc, do you see lawyers becomming an attractive commodity for in the next 3-5 years?

None. Lawyers do well in other fields despite being lawyers, not because of it.

I don't think you're thinking creatively enough.... are you saying there aren't aren't any practical skills honed or useful knowledge developed in law school that might prime a person to function well in a role outside of being an attorney?

I'd go a step farther and say that the vast majority of what is taught in law school isn't even useful to being attorney.

[emorystud2010]

.

[dextermorgan]

I have a few friends who, after graduating law school, decided working as an attorney isn't their ideal path anymore.

They interviewed well, received a few medium-to-big-law offers which would have surely involved 70+ hours a week, but turned that path down altogether. One essentially said he decided that just isn't the lifestyle he can see himself being happy in.

They both do quite well and are into six figures for income, but will likely never work as attorneys, despite the JD. One is a marketing director, the other is in medical equipment.

What other industries, markets, alternative careers/roles, etc, do you see lawyers becomming an attractive commodity for in the next 3-5 years?

Politician.

[ruski]

dont forget the question is not only whether law school does give you any practical skills, but whether employers think it does. good luck explaining to an employer why because you have been a securities lawyer for 4 years, that you would now make an excellent marketing director for his firm. OP the people you mentioned probably got into those field either by chance or some connect. they did not get those positions because of their law degree.

[QandAphorism]

dont forget the question is not only whether law school does give you any practical skills, but whether employers think it does. good luck explaining to an employer why because you have been a securities lawyer for 4 years, that you would now make an excellent marketing director for his firm. OP the people you mentioned probably got into those field either by chance or some connect. they did not get those positions because of their law degree.

Well, it certainly wasn't by chance that they ended up in the positions they did....after LS they just vigorously pursued roles in industries/markets they were interested in. The JD did help in differentiating them relative to the mass of others.

[reasonable_man]

dont forget the question is not only whether law school does give you any practical skills, but whether employers think it does. good luck explaining to an employer why because you have been a securities lawyer for 4 years, that you would now make an excellent marketing director for his firm. OP the people you mentioned probably got into those field either by chance or some connect. they did not get those positions because of their law degree.

Well, it certainly wasn't by chance that they ended up in the positions they did....after LS they just vigorously pursued roles in industries/markets they were interested in. The JD did help in differentiating them relative to the mass of others.

Are you slow? No it didn't. The JD did not help them one bit (and if it did, not 150k worth). Believe me, no one cares about a JD. They just don't. For most people, a JD is a barrier to gaining non-lawyer employment, not a key to some secret vault of high end jobs.

[QandAphorism]

dont forget the question is not only whether law school does give you any practical skills, but whether employers think it does. good luck explaining to an employer why because you have been a securities lawyer for 4 years, that you would now make an excellent marketing director for his firm. OP the people you mentioned probably got into those field either by chance or some connect. they did not get those positions because of their law degree.

Well, it certainly wasn't by chance that they ended up in the positions they did....after LS they just vigorously pursued roles in industries/markets they were interested in. The JD did help in differentiating them relative to the mass of others.

Are you slow? No it didn't. The JD did not help them one bit (and if it did, not 150k worth). Believe me, no one cares about a JD. They just don't. For most people, a JD is a barrier to gaining non-lawyer employment, not a key to some secret vault of high end jobs.

First of all - they received scholarship. Secondly, it did help in all of the personal examples I have, which is more than the two I discussed above. Your experience (as a crumudgeonly somethingL I assume) is skewing your entire perspective on the topic.

[reasonable_man]

dont forget the question is not only whether law school does give you any practical skills, but whether employers think it does. good luck explaining to an employer why because you have been a securities lawyer for 4 years, that you would now make an excellent marketing director for his firm. OP the people you mentioned probably got into those field either by chance or some connect. they did not get those positions because of their law degree.

Well, it certainly wasn't by chance that they ended up in the positions they did....after LS they just vigorously pursued roles in industries/markets they were interested in. The JD did help in differentiating them relative to the mass of others.

Are you slow? No it didn't. The JD did not help them one bit (and if it did, not 150k worth). Believe me, no one cares about a JD. They just don't. For most people, a JD is a barrier to gaining non-lawyer employment, not a key to some secret vault of high end jobs.

First of all - they received scholarship. Secondly, it did help in all of the personal examples I have, which is more than the two I discussed above. Your experience (as a crumudgeonly somethingL I assume) is skewing your entire perspective on the topic.

Or my experience as a lawyer on wall street.

[megaTTTron]

dont forget the question is not only whether law school does give you any practical skills, but whether employers think it does. good luck explaining to an employer why because you have been a securities lawyer for 4 years, that you would now make an excellent marketing director for his firm. OP the people you mentioned probably got into those field either by chance or some connect. they did not get those positions because of their law degree.

Well, it certainly wasn't by chance that they ended up in the positions they did....after LS they just vigorously pursued roles in industries/markets they were interested in. The JD did help in differentiating them relative to the mass of others.

Are you slow? No it didn't. The JD did not help them one bit (and if it did, not 150k worth). Believe me, no one cares about a JD. They just don't. For most people, a JD is a barrier to gaining non-lawyer employment, not a key to some secret vault of high end jobs.

First of all - they received scholarship. Secondly, it did help in all of the personal examples I have, which is more than the two I discussed above. Your experience (as a crumudgeonly somethingL I assume) is skewing your entire perspective on the topic.

There's no hope for this thread now. Tagged before reasonable_man unleashes fury.

EDIT: damn it, missed it by one.

[QandAphorism]

Well, it certainly wasn't by chance that they ended up in the positions they did....after LS they just vigorously pursued roles in industries/markets they were interested in. The JD did help in differentiating them relative to the mass of others.

Are you slow? No it didn't. The JD did not help them one bit (and if it did, not 150k worth). Believe me, no one cares about a JD. They just don't. For most people, a JD is a barrier to gaining non-lawyer employment, not a key to some secret vault of high end jobs.

First of all - they received scholarship. Secondly, it did help in all of the personal examples I have, which is more than the two I discussed above. Your experience (as a crumudgeonly somethingL I assume) is skewing your entire perspective on the topic.

Or my experience as a lawyer on wall street.

You mean fall street.

[QandAphorism]

Well, it certainly wasn't by chance that they ended up in the positions they did....after LS they just vigorously pursued roles in industries/markets they were interested in. The JD did help in differentiating them relative to the mass of others.

Are you slow? No it didn't. The JD did not help them one bit (and if it did, not 150k worth). Believe me, no one cares about a JD. They just don't. For most people, a JD is a barrier to gaining non-lawyer employment, not a key to some secret vault of high end jobs.

First of all - they received scholarship. Secondly, it did help in all of the personal examples I have, which is more than the two I discussed above. Your experience (as a crumudgeonly somethingL I assume) is skewing your entire perspective on the topic.

Or my experience as a lawyer on wall street.

I also have a JD friend involved in a pretty huge/novel enterprise that rhymes with "Poupon." He was hired (coming directly from the hiring mngr) over several others who had a specialized graduate degrees related to this type of business because they prefer people with the capacity to understand the current and future legal implications of this fairly new business/model. He has never worked as an attorney, graduated from a lower T1 LS (but high in the class) and would NOT have gotten this job without the JD. It does help in some cases. Your generalizations are wrong.

[reasonable_man]

So let me get this straight... Three random examples, which most likely represent outstanding examples, as opposed to real life experience of the bulk of law graduates is what you're basing you premise upon? Are you fucking serious?

Lets look at this objectively, friend. JDs are a dime a dozen; that's right, a dime a dozen. By itself, a run of the mill (thats a JD from everywhere other than say the top 8 schools or so), is almost as impresive as a GED earned by a kid from the ghetto that had to overcome some actual adversity to earn it. Its a useless piece of paper (much like a college degree), that acts as an admission ticket to the bar exam -- my college degree -- admission ticket to law school. Once you present your admission ticket to the bar examiners, assuming you pass, you must be taught by lawyers and you must learn quickly on your own how to practice law, or do whatever else it is that you decide to do. The JD, alone, means nothing. You learn no valuable skills (as applied to the practice of law or any other persuit), in law school. Its simply an obstacle for entrance into the profession. That's all.

For most law grads that seek out employment beyond the confines of the legal profession, the results are similar and well documented. These poor souls are generally not well recieved. That is because many employers truly believe that the law-student turned marketer will bolt for a "high paying law job" (as if there are so many of those jobs out there to be had).

Employers, by and large, find the prospect of hiring lawyers in non-lawyer capacities about as appealing as sodomy (which is probably less painful than having to deal with a know-it-all lawyer working for you each day). The exit options (out of the law-track), for MOST (not your 3 random examples), law grads are dim at best and non-existent for many. If you truly believe that any of the examples of people you cite to could not have obtained these jobs by jumping into an entry level position in that field (earning money while doing so), and working up toward the higher end of said job field over 3 years, then you’re kidding yourself.

[Big Shrimpin]

the other is in medical equipment.

Insiiiiiiiide the equipment? ::makes Zoolander face::

Using this logic... why would anyone get almost any bachelor's degree? Most people post-UG pre-Grad school work in some sales capacity or another. Almost all business is essentially sales in one form or another. Why wouldn't people just skip the UG nonsense and go straight into sales post-high school, if we assume this approach above? Surely there's some value to the degree, no?

As RM said above, your logic suffers from too much sand in the ears (PS, if you don't know who RM is, then you probably shouldn't go toe-to-toe with him about legal employment...take my word for it dood. On a related note, we can tell you're not quite familiar with the employment forum, so I'll cut you some slack with my sarcasm).

The bachelor's degree has become a baseline proxy for employability above the level of 711 clerk (ITE, substitute 711 clerk with less-skilled jorb). A generation or so ago, a high school diploma served a similar function. But oh, the times have-a-changed.

With such an oversupply of people and undersupply of jorbs in just about every sector, including law, employers run this buyers' employment-market, and therefore have leverage in hiring in just about every sector. Therefore, it doesn't necessarily follow that a JD gives you some kind of an edge over the next applicant. In fact, in many cases, you're just as "qualified" as the next-best unemployed or "underemployed" JD/MBA/etc...trying for the same jorb. It would be illogical to assume, by any stretch of the imagination, that a JD gives you a de facto edge over anybody else outside of law. That's what RM, et al are trying to pound into your head.

With that said, sure, some people do NOT use their JD for some other profession out side of law. HOWEVER, you would be excruciatingly obtuse to assume that being able to get a job outside of law would be common. For example, take a gander at just about any law school's post-graduate information from a GOOD YEAR like the mid-2000s when unemployment wasn't anywhere near 10% (for the sake of argument, we'll assume that it's relevant/correct, and we won't consider any of the T10 schools). Invariably, you will find that but a small minority of students do something "non-law" related. Interestingly enough (lol, wait for it), a vast majority of that tiny minority is often either "looking" for employment or clerking at 711. Thus, your examples, while interesting and that's pretty cool your friend works at Grupon or whatever, are merely unrepresentative of the overall population and do not suggest some new "niche" industry that's going to start hiring more JDs. Furthermore, many JDs that DO work in different industries do not do so until they've been working in biglaw for a few years (e.g. going in-house after like a minimum of 5 years practicing).

In sum, your argument about the utility of a JD is premised upon a fallacy that JDs necessarily have usefulness outside of law. Hopefully, my argument above can change your mind, and no offense, bring ya back down to reality.

RM, if I got any of this wrong, lemme know.

[Big Shrimpin]

HAHA perfectly timed posting!

OP, this is common knowledge. Welcome to the employment forum!


edit: new slogan for the employment forum..."Employment Forum: Advocating for Reason and Rationality by Policing the Boundaries of Optimism"

[reasonable_man]

the other is in medical equipment.

Insiiiiiiiide the equipment? ::makes Zoolander face::

Using this logic... why would anyone get almost any bachelor's degree? Most people post-UG pre-Grad school work in some sales capacity or another. Almost all business is essentially sales in one form or another. Why wouldn't people just skip the UG nonsense and go straight into sales post-high school, if we assume this approach above? Surely there's some value to the degree, no?

As RM said above, your logic suffers from too much sand in the ears (PS, if you don't know who RM is, then you probably shouldn't go toe-to-toe with him about legal employment...take my word for it dood. On a related note, we can tell you're not quite familiar with the employment forum, so I'll cut you some slack with my sarcasm).

The bachelor's degree has become a baseline proxy for employability above the level of 711 clerk (ITE, substitute 711 clerk with less-skilled jorb). A generation or so ago, a high school diploma served a similar function. But oh, the times have-a-changed.

With such an oversupply of people and undersupply of jorbs in just about every sector, including law, employers run this buyers' employment-market, and therefore have leverage in hiring in just about every sector. Therefore, it doesn't necessarily follow that a JD gives you some kind of an edge over the next applicant. In fact, in many cases, you're just as "qualified" as the next-best unemployed or "underemployed" JD/MBA/etc...trying for the same jorb. It would be illogical to assume, by any stretch of the imagination, that a JD gives you a de facto edge over anybody else outside of law. That's what RM, et al are trying to pound into your head.

With that said, sure, some people do NOT use their JD for some other profession out side of law. HOWEVER, you would be excruciatingly obtuse to assume that being able to get a job outside of law would be common. For example, take a gander at just about any law school's post-graduate information from a GOOD YEAR like the mid-2000s when unemployment wasn't anywhere near 10% (for the sake of argument, we'll assume that it's relevant/correct, and we won't consider any of the T10 schools). Invariably, you will find that but a small minority of students do something "non-law" related. Interestingly enough (lol, wait for it), a vast majority of that tiny minority is often either "looking" for employment or clerking at 711. Thus, your examples, while interesting and that's pretty cool your friend works at Grupon or whatever, are merely unrepresentative of the overall population and do not suggest some new "niche" industry that's going to start hiring more JDs. Furthermore, many JDs that DO work in different industries do not do so until they've been working in biglaw for a few years (e.g. going in-house after like a minimum of 5 years practicing).

In sum, your argument about the utility of a JD is premised upon a fallacy that JDs necessarily have usefulness outside of law. Hopefully, my argument above can change your mind, and no offense, bring ya back down to reality.

RM, if I got any of this wrong, lemme know.

Nope. this summed it up. Nicely I might add. I've got nothing to add to this as you hit it right on the head. Im such a misserable prick.. One day I'll learn how to do this without obliterating someone.. Though I don't know that my employers would like me as much if I softened, so lets not hold our breath for the kinder gentler side of me.

[Big Shrimpin]

The world needs RM. Stay thirsty, my friend.

[QandAphorism]

So let me get this straight... Three random examples, which most likely represent outstanding examples, as opposed to real life experience of the bulk of law graduates is what you're basing you premise upon? Are you fucking serious?

Lets look at this objectively, friend. JDs are a dime a dozen; that's right, a dime a dozen. By itself, a run of the mill (thats a JD from everywhere other than say the top 8 schools or so), is almost as impresive as a GED earned by a kid from the ghetto that had to overcome some actual adversity to earn it. Its a useless piece of paper (much like a college degree), that acts as an admission ticket to the bar exam -- my college degree -- admission ticket to law school. Once you present your admission ticket to the bar examiners, assuming you pass, you must be taught by lawyers and you must learn quickly on your own how to practice law, or do whatever else it is that you decide to do. The JD, alone, means nothing. You learn no valuable skills (as applied to the practice of law or any other persuit), in law school. Its simply an obstacle for entrance into the profession. That's all.

For most law grads that seek out employment beyond the confines of the legal profession, the results are similar and well documented. These poor souls are generally not well recieved. That is because many employers truly believe that the law-student turned marketer will bolt for a "high paying law job" (as if there are so many of those jobs out there to be had).

Employers, by and large, find the prospect of hiring lawyers in non-lawyer capacities about as appealing as sodomy (which is probably less painful than having to deal with a know-it-all lawyer working for you each day). The exit options (out of the law-track), for MOST (not your 3 random examples), law grads are dim at best and non-existent for many. If you truly believe that any of the examples of people you cite to could not have obtained these jobs by jumping into an entry level position in that field (earning money while doing so), and working up toward the higher end of said job field over 3 years, then you’re kidding yourself.

Ok, so your pessimism sounds well documented and based on compelling personal experience so I'll accept that for what it is. BUT, in this case, I think you're exaggerating whatever assertions you thought I was making in order to respond with what appears to be a bit of a pre-packaged serving of gloom & doom.

Believe me, I get what's going on "IRL." I'm not going to reveal my entire background in a forum, but I've been around a while and have done quite well.

[QandAphorism]

the other is in medical equipment.

Insiiiiiiiide the equipment? ::makes Zoolander face::

Using this logic... why would anyone get almost any bachelor's degree? Most people post-UG pre-Grad school work in some sales capacity or another. Almost all business is essentially sales in one form or another. Why wouldn't people just skip the UG nonsense and go straight into sales post-high school, if we assume this approach above? Surely there's some value to the degree, no?

As RM said above, your logic suffers from too much sand in the ears (PS, if you don't know who RM is, then you probably shouldn't go toe-to-toe with him about legal employment...take my word for it dood. On a related note, we can tell you're not quite familiar with the employment forum, so I'll cut you some slack with my sarcasm).

The bachelor's degree has become a baseline proxy for employability above the level of 711 clerk (ITE, substitute 711 clerk with less-skilled jorb). A generation or so ago, a high school diploma served a similar function. But oh, the times have-a-changed.

With such an oversupply of people and undersupply of jorbs in just about every sector, including law, employers run this buyers' employment-market, and therefore have leverage in hiring in just about every sector. Therefore, it doesn't necessarily follow that a JD gives you some kind of an edge over the next applicant. In fact, in many cases, you're just as "qualified" as the next-best unemployed or "underemployed" JD/MBA/etc...trying for the same jorb. It would be illogical to assume, by any stretch of the imagination, that a JD gives you a de facto edge over anybody else outside of law. That's what RM, et al are trying to pound into your head.

With that said, sure, some people do NOT use their JD for some other profession out side of law. HOWEVER, you would be excruciatingly obtuse to assume that being able to get a job outside of law would be common. For example, take a gander at just about any law school's post-graduate information from a GOOD YEAR like the mid-2000s when unemployment wasn't anywhere near 10% (for the sake of argument, we'll assume that it's relevant/correct, and we won't consider any of the T10 schools). Invariably, you will find that but a small minority of students do something "non-law" related. Interestingly enough (lol, wait for it), a vast majority of that tiny minority is often either "looking" for employment or clerking at 711. Thus, your examples, while interesting and that's pretty cool your friend works at Grupon or whatever, are merely unrepresentative of the overall population and do not suggest some new "niche" industry that's going to start hiring more JDs. Furthermore, many JDs that DO work in different industries do not do so until they've been working in biglaw for a few years (e.g. going in-house after like a minimum of 5 years practicing).

In sum, your argument about the utility of a JD is premised upon a fallacy that JDs necessarily have usefulness outside of law. Hopefully, my argument above can change your mind, and no offense, bring ya back down to reality.

RM, if I got any of this wrong, lemme know.

I don't fully understand why so many on TLS'ers are so magnetized towards the "absolute." Did I ever say that I considered a JD an absolute "de facto" edge over anybody else outside of law? You guys seem to invent the de factos (pun intended) required in order to quickly make your arguments against generalizations I didn't make. I said a JD has, in my experience, helped a few of my friends secure non attorney, high-paying jobs. This may be rare for you, but in my peer group, it hasn't been. That's all.

[pandacot]

I also have a JD friend involved in a pretty huge/novel enterprise that rhymes with "Poupon." He was hired (coming directly from the hiring mngr) over several others who had a specialized graduate degrees related to this type of business because they prefer people with the capacity to understand the current and future legal implications of this fairly new business/model. He has never worked as an attorney, graduated from a lower T1 LS (but high in the class) and would NOT have gotten this job without the JD. It does help in some cases. Your generalizations are wrong.

How the hell could he possibly understand legal implications if he never worked as lawyer? If hiring firm is dumb enough to believe that this person knows anything about legal implications without practicing, then they are retards.