UC davis employment statistics..explain

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AntiHuman
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UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby AntiHuman » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:47 am

http://www.law.ucdavis.edu/current/care ... stics.html

private sector range:100,000-160,000

"Of the 191 students in the class, information was available on the employment status of 190 students. Of the 190 students, nine months after graduation, 183 students were employed; 5 students were enrolled in an advanced degree program; and 2 students were not seeking employment. Thus, this graduating class had a success rate of 99%, nine months after graduation."

information was available for 190 out of 191?

Any faults in this information?

BlueDiamond
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby BlueDiamond » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:51 am

The statistics are probably all correct.. what you have to ask is how many of those 190 or so students are currently employed in a legal job.. my guess is 50% maybe less.. with top 10-15% getting the high paying jobs which make their private sector numbers look nice and high.. with the gray area in between getting public legal jobs.. Davis is still performing better than others out there in their range though so it's not a horrible option if you're getting money

AntiHuman
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby AntiHuman » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:16 am

BlueDiamond wrote:The statistics are probably all correct.. what you have to ask is how many of those 190 or so students are currently employed in a legal job.. my guess is 50% maybe less.. with top 10-15% getting the high paying jobs which make their private sector numbers look nice and high.. with the gray area in between getting public legal jobs.. Davis is still performing better than others out there in their range though so it's not a horrible option if you're getting money


private sector range is 100,000-160,000 with 56 percent of the class going into private sector and data available for 190/191 students? This seems quite impressive. But you're saying that a lot of students aren't even doing law now?

I mean it does say that 19 have job types unknown...hmm what does this mean...that's 10 percent of the entire class...that seems high...it seems kinda weird if the career services don't know the job type of 10 percent of the class.

BlueDiamond
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby BlueDiamond » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:27 am

AntiHuman wrote:
BlueDiamond wrote:The statistics are probably all correct.. what you have to ask is how many of those 190 or so students are currently employed in a legal job.. my guess is 50% maybe less.. with top 10-15% getting the high paying jobs which make their private sector numbers look nice and high.. with the gray area in between getting public legal jobs.. Davis is still performing better than others out there in their range though so it's not a horrible option if you're getting money


private sector range is 100,000-160,000 with 56 percent of the class going into private sector and data available for 190/191 students? This seems quite impressive. But you're saying that a lot of students aren't even doing law now?

I mean it does say that 19 have job types unknown...hmm what does this mean...that's 10 percent of the entire class...that seems high...it seems kinda weird if the career services don't know the job type of 10 percent of the class.


"Salaries are reported only for those graduates with full-time employment. Not all students reported salaries." - read the fine print which has this nice little escape clause

Edit: they had a combined 21 people go into PI or what they call business/industry.. yet they have no salary data for them? So, all 21 didn't answer? not likely.. also.. not that the one has any connection to the other.. but pure speculation would say even if 1 in 21 reported for their "firm" data that is only 4-5 people

Edit v2: Unknown Location: 27 / 15% .. they can't locate 15% of the graduating class... but they can sure tell you they definitely have jobs? Of course you have to account for any that moved out of the states.. but I doubt that's 27 people in total

MrAnon
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby MrAnon » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:48 am

They say they only lack information on 1 student. So surely they know or at least have some idea what the 19 are doing, but they don't want to parse out their 19 different positions for prospective students to analyze. "Retail"? "Contract attorney"? Even if an alum replied to their survey and indicated he/she was employed and said nothing further, then career services people will track that person down to find out where they are.

As for the range of private sector salaries, "not all students reported salaries". This could mean that you are seeing the range of only 4 people, and that 97 did not report. Extreme example? Maybe or maybe not. They claim that the 21 kids who are in public interest or business did not report their salaries. They also do not show the salaries of those who went into academia (whatever that term means). So just right there you are missing salary information for 28% of the class! Can you assume that 28% of the private practice people have not reported their salary? Maybe. Why would they not report their salary? That is anyone's guess.

If you look at this form you can see that the school probably has a lot more information that they do not place on the website. --LinkRemoved-- Before you send in your $150,000 check you might ask to see this information summarized.

Black-Blue
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Black-Blue » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:05 am

Here's how I'd recalculate the salary data

37 ppl (biglaw) = 160k
25 ppl (midlaw) = 100k
8 ppl (grad school/unemployed/unknown) = 0k
121 (everybody else) = 55k

Average = 79k

However, since lots of 2009 associates got laid off or indefinitely deferred, that amount should drop a bit, maybe to 65k average including layoffs/deferral.

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20160810
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby 20160810 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:15 am

C/o 2009 would have done OCI before the world exploded, so I'm more apt to believe these statistics. Even still, color me incredibly skepticalhippo.jpg.

An awful lot of UCD students go to work for firms in Sacramento, where the market rate isn't all that high. A lot of "good" Sac firms (Downey, BBK, etc.) are able to recruit candidates in the top 10-15% of the class even though they only pay about $100,000. I don't mean "only" in the sense that that's a low salary - $100,000 is a lot of money, but there's no way it's a median-or-lower private practice salary for UCD Law grads when an awful lot of the top of our class goes to firms that pay ~100.

I won't go so far as to say the data's cooked up. It's certainly not more cooked up than a similarly rosy c/o 2009 salary sheet from Hastings someone posted on here the other day. But I don't think those #s look ANYTHING like what those of us currently attending King Hall can expect to see, and I don't know if it's an accident that the administration hasn't updated that page to something a bit more post-recession.

Anonymous User
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:08 am

SBL wrote:C/o 2009 would have done OCI before the world exploded, so I'm more apt to believe these statistics. Even still, color me incredibly skepticalhippo.jpg.

An awful lot of UCD students go to work for firms in Sacramento, where the market rate isn't all that high. A lot of "good" Sac firms (Downey, BBK, etc.) are able to recruit candidates in the top 10-15% of the class even though they only pay about $100,000. I don't mean "only" in the sense that that's a low salary - $100,000 is a lot of money, but there's no way it's a median-or-lower private practice salary for UCD Law grads when an awful lot of the top of our class goes to firms that pay ~100.

I won't go so far as to say the data's cooked up. It's certainly not more cooked up than a similarly rosy c/o 2009 salary sheet from Hastings someone posted on here the other day. But I don't think those #s look ANYTHING like what those of us currently attending King Hall can expect to see, and I don't know if it's an accident that the administration hasn't updated that page to something a bit more post-recession.



I'm a 1L at UCD. It sounds like a ton of people here are struggling to find any job at all, but hopefully things get better soon.

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20160810
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby 20160810 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
SBL wrote:C/o 2009 would have done OCI before the world exploded, so I'm more apt to believe these statistics. Even still, color me incredibly skepticalhippo.jpg.

An awful lot of UCD students go to work for firms in Sacramento, where the market rate isn't all that high. A lot of "good" Sac firms (Downey, BBK, etc.) are able to recruit candidates in the top 10-15% of the class even though they only pay about $100,000. I don't mean "only" in the sense that that's a low salary - $100,000 is a lot of money, but there's no way it's a median-or-lower private practice salary for UCD Law grads when an awful lot of the top of our class goes to firms that pay ~100.

I won't go so far as to say the data's cooked up. It's certainly not more cooked up than a similarly rosy c/o 2009 salary sheet from Hastings someone posted on here the other day. But I don't think those #s look ANYTHING like what those of us currently attending King Hall can expect to see, and I don't know if it's an accident that the administration hasn't updated that page to something a bit more post-recession.



I'm a 1L at UCD. It sounds like a ton of people here are struggling to find any job at all, but hopefully things get better soon.

1Ls tend to wind up doing crappy unpaid public interest stuff anyway, so don't take it as a terrible sign if you don't find firm work. I recommend shooting for an RA job if you get any As 1L year. $15.50/hr and you get good research experience.

The 2Ls did a little better this year than last. Most top-10% people I know got big firm jobs, and a smattering of people down to about top-quarter-ish got OK firm jobs. Last year it seemed like only the top-5% got firm jobs, so things are definitely improving. Hopefully by next year it'll be back to how it used to be where the top 30-40% is in the running during OCI.

thisguy456
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby thisguy456 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:02 am

Black-Blue wrote:Here's how I'd recalculate the salary data

37 ppl (biglaw) = 160k
25 ppl (midlaw) = 100k
8 ppl (grad school/unemployed/unknown) = 0k
121 (everybody else) = 55k

Average = 79k

However, since lots of 2009 associates got laid off or indefinitely deferred, that amount should drop a bit, maybe to 65k average including layoffs/deferral.


--LinkRemoved--

This is for the class of 2008, but I'll bet similar games are occurring with the 2009 numbers as with the 2008 numbers.

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20160810
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby 20160810 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:09 am

thisguy456 wrote:
Black-Blue wrote:Here's how I'd recalculate the salary data

37 ppl (biglaw) = 160k
25 ppl (midlaw) = 100k
8 ppl (grad school/unemployed/unknown) = 0k
121 (everybody else) = 55k

Average = 79k

However, since lots of 2009 associates got laid off or indefinitely deferred, that amount should drop a bit, maybe to 65k average including layoffs/deferral.


--LinkRemoved--

This is for the class of 2008, but I'll bet similar games are occurring with the 2009 numbers as with the 2008 numbers.

I think 65-79K is a pretty good bet for the actual average salary out of UCD. A lot of people will be making more than that, but I think if you borrow money to come to UCD looking to make more than 79K at the most, the odds are you're going to be disappointed.

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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:06 am

I would be very happy with 75k from Davis atm (2L) =P

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observationalist
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby observationalist » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:56 am

AntiHuman wrote:http://www.law.ucdavis.edu/current/career-services/statistics.html

private sector range:100,000-160,000

"Of the 191 students in the class, information was available on the employment status of 190 students. Of the 190 students, nine months after graduation, 183 students were employed; 5 students were enrolled in an advanced degree program; and 2 students were not seeking employment. Thus, this graduating class had a success rate of 99%, nine months after graduation."

information was available for 190 out of 191?

Any faults in this information?


Regarding the link someone else posted (--LinkRemoved--)

You'll see that in 2008 only 52% in the private sector reported salaries, which probably isn't an anomaly (meaning likely the same amount or fewer reported salary in 2009). Due to the significant reporting delay, we won't have that data until the ABA releases it next year. However, UCD does know what percent reported salary for the Class of 2009, and I strongly recommend you contact them to ask for that statistic. Starting in February, you should also ask for the recently-compiled data on the Class of 2010. The ABA won't report that until 2012, so your best bet is to get the data straight from the source.

As someone else mentioned, the school might know the employment status (as in 'employed or unemployed' and what type of job) of 190 students, but they only know the salary for perhaps less than half of them. When we discuss how schools are misleading prospectives in how they present employment data, UCD's method is fairly obvious. The school tells you the "employment data" is based on just about everyone, which you then extrapolate out to assume the salary information is also based on just about everyone. It's not. The ABA doesn't specifically require schools to disclose the percent reporting salary, but they do mandate that schools must report employment data "fairly and accurately." Someone at UCDavis, despite the good intentions of their career services office and a number of faculty, are arguably breaching the ABA's mandate. This is partly why we're now working with the ABA to see if they're willing to make some of the regulatory changes that would cut down on this type of behavior, even as we continue advocating for schools to just publish employment lists of where everyone goes.

What should you do? Contact the Career Services Office once you're accepted and demand (nicely) to see the actual employment statistics, including complete employer lists. Ask again once the Class of 2010 data is compiled... it will be fresh in their minds come late Feb/early March and they may even be able to just tell you some of the basic statistics over the phone. Even if the school doesn't have salary data on half the private sector grads, they probably do know the names of the employers. This is just as important to you as salary. You might not be able to figure out how much every graduate makes, but an employer name lets you determine for yourself if it's the type of place you'd potentially like to work. You'll also want to know what percent of private sector grads got jobs that required a JD... some schools are reporting this statistic now, and it was one of the main topics of discussion at last week's ABA Questionnaire Committee meeting. A number of these private sector jobs are not related to legal work and include jobs like bartending, teaching highschool, or the jobs people had before law school.

Please don't feel like you're inconveniencing them to ask for this data. We know they're busy but that doesn't excuse them from their duty to provide you with basic consumer information. You are the consumer trying to gauge whether the program is worth six figures of personal, nondischargeable debt; if they want your money they need to disclose the real risks involved with their program.

And in case anyone's interested, UC-Davis's pre-law advisor, Susan Meyer, has actually recommended that law schools start surveying graduates to measure their level of satisfaction "from very to not at all." Her comment is one of many that the ABA Questionnaire Committee is currently weighing while it decides how to change what information schools must report about their graduates. Here's the link to the prepared statements. http://www.americanbar.org/groups/legal_education.html

Good luck to all.

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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Black-Blue » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:18 pm

thisguy456 wrote:
Black-Blue wrote:Here's how I'd recalculate the salary data

37 ppl (biglaw) = 160k
25 ppl (midlaw) = 100k
8 ppl (grad school/unemployed/unknown) = 0k
121 (everybody else) = 55k

Average = 79k

However, since lots of 2009 associates got laid off or indefinitely deferred, that amount should drop a bit, maybe to 65k average including layoffs/deferral.


--LinkRemoved--

This is for the class of 2008, but I'll bet similar games are occurring with the 2009 numbers as with the 2008 numbers.

I think my estimation is more accurate than LST's. LST only has US news data which contains the percentage in private practice, private practice salary, clerkships and that's it. My calculation includes salary of people in public sector and accounts for unreported data (by assuming that they're in shitlaw = 55k).

Also, size of the firm is probably the easiest way to estimate salary. When the distribution is given by firm size, a good estimate can be made. Unfortunately, LST doesn't have that data, and most schools don't release it.

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General Tso
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby General Tso » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:51 pm

I am still very skeptical of the 98% employed at graduation claim in USNWR

Black-Blue
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Black-Blue » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:30 pm

General Tso wrote:I am still very skeptical of the 98% employed at graduation claim in USNWR

According to LST, that's 98% for 9 months after graduation, not at graduation. Huge difference there, because with 9 months, you can say you were employed just by doing doc review.

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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:45 pm

this is depressing....I thought top third---to---top quarter would get six figs or at least 90-100k midlaw

like isn't top third/3.3-3.4 gpa or so competitive for midlaw in sac(90-100K) like downey brand or something?

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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:this is depressing....I thought top third---to---top quarter would get six figs or at least 90-100k midlaw

like isn't top third/3.3-3.4 gpa or so competitive for midlaw in sac(90-100K) like downey brand or something?


A thousand times no. Top 1/3 with LR or other accolades will get your *some* screening interviews, so if you can schmooze well maybe you got a shot, but top 1/3 is not a lock even for the weak sac firms during OCI. TRUST ME ON THIS. It seems most people outside of top15% who "expected" some sort of firm job (even sac) were sorely disappointed (and there are numerous people in top15% who got shafted as well, they tend to "I DESERVED A FIRM JOB DAMNIT" the most so its pretty easy to know). I won't pretend that one person means anything (I could be the worst interviewer in the world), but there is a lot of "well if I'm not getting 1xx,xxx then why not just go to PI/gov and hopefully make 65-70k, as its going to be the same shit work at XXX pos firm" going around. Any many of us are desperate to obtain good PI/Gov jobs if we aren't under the "biglaw or bust" loan situation. Pray you don't get Aoki for property next semester if you are a 1L now.

Anonymous User
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:this is depressing....I thought top third---to---top quarter would get six figs or at least 90-100k midlaw

like isn't top third/3.3-3.4 gpa or so competitive for midlaw in sac(90-100K) like downey brand or something?


A thousand times no. Top 1/3 with LR or other accolades will get your *some* screening interviews, so if you can schmooze well maybe you got a shot, but top 1/3 is not a lock even for the weak sac firms during OCI. TRUST ME ON THIS. It seems most people outside of top15% who "expected" some sort of firm job (even sac) were sorely disappointed (and there are numerous people in top15% who got shafted as well, they tend to "I DESERVED A FIRM JOB DAMNIT" the most so its pretty easy to know). I won't pretend that one person means anything (I could be the worst interviewer in the world), but there is a lot of "well if I'm not getting 1xx,xxx then why not just go to PI/gov and hopefully make 65-70k, as its going to be the same shit work at XXX pos firm" going around. Any many of us are desperate to obtain good PI/Gov jobs if we aren't under the "biglaw or bust" loan situation. Pray you don't get Aoki for property next semester if you are a 1L now.


nope i have lee, oakley, amar, tanaka

i really don't think I did well this semester..all I did was just read outlines(I literally memorized like 3-6 outlines per class made by 2L's) and take practice exams. I tried to do E n E's and other supplements(like Dressler), but I didn't find them helpful and I proscrastinated(had no time near the end of the semester to go through the supps...I should have read them after each section was done with a class)...I definitely need to switch my game plan up next semester...I didn't think the job situation was this bad.

I think I got B's and some B+'s ... Now I guess I'll be lucky if I can land a 70k private firm gig...if the economy doesn't pick up

Anonymous User
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:this is depressing....I thought top third---to---top quarter would get six figs or at least 90-100k midlaw

like isn't top third/3.3-3.4 gpa or so competitive for midlaw in sac(90-100K) like downey brand or something?


A thousand times no. Top 1/3 with LR or other accolades will get your *some* screening interviews, so if you can schmooze well maybe you got a shot, but top 1/3 is not a lock even for the weak sac firms during OCI. TRUST ME ON THIS. It seems most people outside of top15% who "expected" some sort of firm job (even sac) were sorely disappointed (and there are numerous people in top15% who got shafted as well, they tend to "I DESERVED A FIRM JOB DAMNIT" the most so its pretty easy to know). I won't pretend that one person means anything (I could be the worst interviewer in the world), but there is a lot of "well if I'm not getting 1xx,xxx then why not just go to PI/gov and hopefully make 65-70k, as its going to be the same shit work at XXX pos firm" going around. Any many of us are desperate to obtain good PI/Gov jobs if we aren't under the "biglaw or bust" loan situation. Pray you don't get Aoki for property next semester if you are a 1L now.


nope i have lee, oakley, amar, tanaka

i really don't think I did well this semester..all I did was just read outlines(I literally memorized like 3-6 outlines per class made by 2L's) and take practice exams. I tried to do E n E's and other supplements(like Dressler), but I didn't find them helpful and I proscrastinated(had no time near the end of the semester to go through the supps...I should have read them after each section was done with a class)...I definitely need to switch my game plan up next semester...I didn't think the job situation was this bad.

I think I got B's and some B+'s ... Now I guess I'll be lucky if I can land a 70k private firm gig...if the economy doesn't pick up


PM'd

Anonymous User
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:10 am

huh??

Anonymous User
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:this is depressing....I thought top third---to---top quarter would get six figs or at least 90-100k midlaw

like isn't top third/3.3-3.4 gpa or so competitive for midlaw in sac(90-100K) like downey brand or something?


A thousand times no. Top 1/3 with LR or other accolades will get your *some* screening interviews, so if you can schmooze well maybe you got a shot, but top 1/3 is not a lock even for the weak sac firms during OCI. TRUST ME ON THIS. It seems most people outside of top15% who "expected" some sort of firm job (even sac) were sorely disappointed (and there are numerous people in top15% who got shafted as well, they tend to "I DESERVED A FIRM JOB DAMNIT" the most so its pretty easy to know). I won't pretend that one person means anything (I could be the worst interviewer in the world), but there is a lot of "well if I'm not getting 1xx,xxx then why not just go to PI/gov and hopefully make 65-70k, as its going to be the same shit work at XXX pos firm" going around. Any many of us are desperate to obtain good PI/Gov jobs if we aren't under the "biglaw or bust" loan situation. Pray you don't get Aoki for property next semester if you are a 1L now.


If you don't mind me asking, what did you not like about Aoki's class?
I have heard of one person who got a biglaw offer who was not in the top 10%, but they had some other things going for them and may have interviewed well. I have also met other graduates who were not in the top 20% who got biglaw jobs as well. However, it looks like there are several peopl in the top 20% who are struggling to find even a midlaw job.

Anonymous User
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:22 am

Aoki is awesome, I didn't go to class once after the second week and got an A, but the grading is pretty random, the test is FAR too easy. I personally know some people who got straight A/A- and got B-/C+ in Aoki. The only reason I did well was because I used the whole 3 hours and made all sorts of claims that were just merely plausible to put me over the edge, the basic test could be completed in 2 hours easily.

So its a risk, the harder the test, the more you get rewarded for actually putting in the effort, I just got lucky my bullshit got me extra points.

yo!
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby yo! » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:29 am

shit....I have Aoki next semester

Anonymous User
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Re: UC davis employment statistics..explain

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:this is depressing....I thought top third---to---top quarter would get six figs or at least 90-100k midlaw

like isn't top third/3.3-3.4 gpa or so competitive for midlaw in sac(90-100K) like downey brand or something?


A thousand times no. Top 1/3 with LR or other accolades will get your *some* screening interviews, so if you can schmooze well maybe you got a shot, but top 1/3 is not a lock even for the weak sac firms during OCI. TRUST ME ON THIS. It seems most people outside of top15% who "expected" some sort of firm job (even sac) were sorely disappointed (and there are numerous people in top15% who got shafted as well, they tend to "I DESERVED A FIRM JOB DAMNIT" the most so its pretty easy to know). I won't pretend that one person means anything (I could be the worst interviewer in the world), but there is a lot of "well if I'm not getting 1xx,xxx then why not just go to PI/gov and hopefully make 65-70k, as its going to be the same shit work at XXX pos firm" going around. Any many of us are desperate to obtain good PI/Gov jobs if we aren't under the "biglaw or bust" loan situation. Pray you don't get Aoki for property next semester if you are a 1L now.


nope i have lee, oakley, amar, tanaka

i really don't think I did well this semester..all I did was just read outlines(I literally memorized like 3-6 outlines per class made by 2L's) and take practice exams. I tried to do E n E's and other supplements(like Dressler), but I didn't find them helpful and I proscrastinated(had no time near the end of the semester to go through the supps...I should have read them after each section was done with a class)...I definitely need to switch my game plan up next semester...I didn't think the job situation was this bad.

I think I got B's and some B+'s ... Now I guess I'll be lucky if I can land a 70k private firm gig...if the economy doesn't pick up


PM'd


i never got a PM lol




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