Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

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scribblehead
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby scribblehead » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:45 pm

The Economist ran a great article on the current/future trends of outsourcing:

http://www.economist.com/node/17733545? ... 5&fsrc=rss


A good quote from the story:

American law firms typically get fresh law graduates to do such grunt work and then bill clients for it at steep rates. But the recession has prompted clients to rebel. A recent survey by the American Lawyer found that 47% of large firms had seen clients refuse to have hours billed to beginner lawyers.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:29 pm

scribblehead wrote:The Economist ran a great article on the current/future trends of outsourcing:

http://www.economist.com/node/17733545? ... 5&fsrc=rss


A good quote from the story:

American law firms typically get fresh law graduates to do such grunt work and then bill clients for it at steep rates. But the recession has prompted clients to rebel. A recent survey by the American Lawyer found that 47% of large firms had seen clients refuse to have hours billed to beginner lawyers.


This is a new and original point, worth bumping a shitty thread that has been dead for 10 days over.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby deadpoetnsp » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:38 pm

Seally wrote:
OT: Legal jobs get outsourced, just like Medical jobs(Radiology, Pathology and other Lab related Specialties especially,) or Science research positions...
Outsourcing won't go to the point that the number of Lawyers without jobs will quadruple, firms are afraid of losing clients if they end up hearing that the people drafting their legalese are underpaid Indians.


The people who the jobs are outsourced to may seem to be underpaid by a dollar-value comparison, but are paid much higher than the average salaries in their region if you take into account purchase price parity. Hence those jobs tend to attract some of the best minds in India/wherever.

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20160810
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby 20160810 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:40 pm

People dislike falling sky stuff for obvious reasons, but it wouldn't shock me to see some law jobs outsourced over the next X years. I think that certain types of practice, however, are so dependent on personal relationships with clients that they're unlikely ever to be in this kind of jeopardy.

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BrownBears09
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby BrownBears09 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:45 pm

SBL wrote:People dislike falling sky stuff for obvious reasons, but it wouldn't shock me to see some [insert career field here] jobs outsourced over the next X years. I think that certain types of practice, however, are so dependent on personal relationships with clients that they're unlikely ever to be in this kind of jeopardy.


FTFY.

Anonymous User
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:01 pm

I just don't understand why you are so persistent in trying to convince us that our jobs will be outsourced! Everything can be outsourced. I personally find it hard to believe that everyone is going to run to India to get a lawyer, and hire a person that was educated in middle of nowhere and law school that no one heard of. You can't replace T-14 graduate with just about anyone, or T-50 graduate for that matter. Maybe even T-100 graduate when compared to India, Brazil, etc.

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icouldbuyu
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby icouldbuyu » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:04 pm

Cooley Grad>India Law Grad

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20160810
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby 20160810 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:34 pm

icouldbuyu wrote:Cooley Grad>India Law Grad

Probably not. Definitely not when you consider cost-effectiveness. If I needed doc review done, I'd go with the Indian option 10 times out of 10.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:12 am

scribblehead wrote:The Economist ran a great article on the current/future trends of outsourcing:

http://www.economist.com/node/17733545? ... 5&fsrc=rss


A good quote from the story:

American law firms typically get fresh law graduates to do such grunt work and then bill clients for it at steep rates. But the recession has prompted clients to rebel. A recent survey by the American Lawyer found that 47% of large firms had seen clients refuse to have hours billed to beginner lawyers.

So wait, this is supposed to concern us? I'm not joking when I say this, but I'm astonished that only 47% of all large firms have had clients that refused to bill hours to beginner lawyers. That's not 47% of clients at firms - that means that fewer than 1/2 of all large firms have had a single client (out of hundreds) that refused to be billed for 1st year associate work.

Shit, that's far better news than I expected. Thanks!

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BrownBears09
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:31 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
scribblehead wrote:The Economist ran a great article on the current/future trends of outsourcing:

http://www.economist.com/node/17733545? ... 5&fsrc=rss


A good quote from the story:

American law firms typically get fresh law graduates to do such grunt work and then bill clients for it at steep rates. But the recession has prompted clients to rebel. A recent survey by the American Lawyer found that 47% of large firms had seen clients refuse to have hours billed to beginner lawyers.

So wait, this is supposed to concern us? I'm not joking when I say this, but I'm astonished that only 47% of all large firms have had clients that refused to bill hours to beginner lawyers. That's not 47% of clients at firms - that means that fewer than 1/2 of all large firms have had at least a single client (out of hundreds) that refused to be billed for 1st year associate work.

Shit, that's far better news than I expected. Thanks!


FTFY2.

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180orbust
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby 180orbust » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:01 am

I was under the impression that there is insane competition in the Indian school systems, and that there are some ridiculously smart/well-educated Indians whose economy can't keep up with the influx of intellectual talent. I would not be surprised if the Indian doc review lawyers have more work ethic and raw intelligence than their privileged American counterparts. Paying BigLaw rates for doc review seems pretty ridiculous to me, as does the not-so-latent racism towards Indians going on in this thread. Just because they're brown doesn't mean they should be treated like shit, y'all.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:04 am

BrownBears09 wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
scribblehead wrote:The Economist ran a great article on the current/future trends of outsourcing:

http://www.economist.com/node/17733545? ... 5&fsrc=rss


A good quote from the story:

American law firms typically get fresh law graduates to do such grunt work and then bill clients for it at steep rates. But the recession has prompted clients to rebel. A recent survey by the American Lawyer found that 47% of large firms had seen clients refuse to have hours billed to beginner lawyers.

So wait, this is supposed to concern us? I'm not joking when I say this, but I'm astonished that only 47% of all large firms have had clients that refused to bill hours to beginner lawyers. That's not 47% of clients at firms - that means that fewer than 1/2 of all large firms have had at least a single client (out of hundreds) that refused to be billed for 1st year associate work.

Shit, that's far better news than I expected. Thanks!


FTFY2.

Thanks, good catch. Originally structured it as "more than half of large firms haven't had a single client..." and forgot to switch that part as well.

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Seally
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby Seally » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:39 pm

deadpoetnsp wrote:
Seally wrote:
OT: Legal jobs get outsourced, just like Medical jobs(Radiology, Pathology and other Lab related Specialties especially,) or Science research positions...
Outsourcing won't go to the point that the number of Lawyers without jobs will quadruple, firms are afraid of losing clients if they end up hearing that the people drafting their legalese are underpaid Indians.


The people who the jobs are outsourced to may seem to be underpaid by a dollar-value comparison, but are paid much higher than the average salaries in their region if you take into account purchase price parity. Hence those jobs tend to attract some of the best minds in India/wherever.



Anyways, most jobs outsourced in the legal industry to this date are Full Time research positions, the Economy is also starting to get a bit better than the chaotic times of 2007-2008, which will help the Legal Industry a lot.
Not saying it's totally safe, just saying that we shouldn't jump into a direct conclusion that there will be no Associate positions in a few years.

A Lawyer billing 200$/hour for research will lose that opp and an Indian Lawyer will do it for 20$/hour, yes, even with value difference, it's still underpaid in India, even Physicians(Surgeons, Radiologists etc) are getting paid peanuts there...

But that stops here, nothing more, nothing less.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby deadpoetnsp » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:29 pm

Seally wrote:
deadpoetnsp wrote:
Seally wrote:
OT: Legal jobs get outsourced, just like Medical jobs(Radiology, Pathology and other Lab related Specialties especially,) or Science research positions...
Outsourcing won't go to the point that the number of Lawyers without jobs will quadruple, firms are afraid of losing clients if they end up hearing that the people drafting their legalese are underpaid Indians.


The people who the jobs are outsourced to may seem to be underpaid by a dollar-value comparison, but are paid much higher than the average salaries in their region if you take into account purchase price parity. Hence those jobs tend to attract some of the best minds in India/wherever.



Anyways, most jobs outsourced in the legal industry to this date are Full Time research positions, the Economy is also starting to get a bit better than the chaotic times of 2007-2008, which will help the Legal Industry a lot.
Not saying it's totally safe, just saying that we shouldn't jump into a direct conclusion that there will be no Associate positions in a few years.

A Lawyer billing 200$/hour for research will lose that opp and an Indian Lawyer will do it for 20$/hour, yes, even with value difference, it's still underpaid in India, even Physicians(Surgeons, Radiologists etc) are getting paid peanuts there...

But that stops here, nothing more, nothing less.


What TLSers may not realize is that unlike in the US, lawyers are not well paid in India. The legal profession is simply not associated with a high salary.

The average salaries for Indian lawyers working for regular Indian law firms (not outsourcing work, doing regular Indian legal work in India) are:
Rs. 3,00,000 ~ $7,000 (1-4 years exp)
Rs. 5,00,000 ~ $11,000 (4-8 years exp)
Rs. 13,00,000 ~ $30,000 (>10 years exp)

Outsourcing firms that do work for $20/hour pay DOUBLE these salaries to Indian lawyers. And in fact, many firms charge much more than $20/hour

$20/hr = 20*8 = $160/day
5 working days for say 45 working weeks. 225 working days ===> 225 * 160 = $36,000/year. Even assuming that only half of this is passed on to the employee doing the work, we are still left with $18,000/year which is a VERY HIGH salary converted to Indian Rupees.

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AreJay711
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Re: Most associate jobs can & will be outsourced

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:36 pm

deadpoetnsp wrote:
Seally wrote:
deadpoetnsp wrote:
Seally wrote:
OT: Legal jobs get outsourced, just like Medical jobs(Radiology, Pathology and other Lab related Specialties especially,) or Science research positions...
Outsourcing won't go to the point that the number of Lawyers without jobs will quadruple, firms are afraid of losing clients if they end up hearing that the people drafting their legalese are underpaid Indians.


The people who the jobs are outsourced to may seem to be underpaid by a dollar-value comparison, but are paid much higher than the average salaries in their region if you take into account purchase price parity. Hence those jobs tend to attract some of the best minds in India/wherever.



Anyways, most jobs outsourced in the legal industry to this date are Full Time research positions, the Economy is also starting to get a bit better than the chaotic times of 2007-2008, which will help the Legal Industry a lot.
Not saying it's totally safe, just saying that we shouldn't jump into a direct conclusion that there will be no Associate positions in a few years.

A Lawyer billing 200$/hour for research will lose that opp and an Indian Lawyer will do it for 20$/hour, yes, even with value difference, it's still underpaid in India, even Physicians(Surgeons, Radiologists etc) are getting paid peanuts there...

But that stops here, nothing more, nothing less.


What TLSers may not realize is that unlike in the US, lawyers are not well paid in India. The legal profession is simply not associated with a high salary.

The average salaries for Indian lawyers working for regular Indian law firms (not outsourcing work, doing regular Indian legal work in India) are:
Rs. 3,00,000 ~ $7,000 (1-4 years exp)
Rs. 5,00,000 ~ $11,000 (4-8 years exp)
Rs. 13,00,000 ~ $30,000 (>10 years exp)

Outsourcing firms that do work for $20/hour pay DOUBLE these salaries to Indian lawyers. And in fact, many firms charge much more than $20/hour

$20/hr = 20*8 = $160/day
5 working days for say 45 working weeks. 225 working days ===> 225 * 160 = $36,000/year. Even assuming that only half of this is passed on to the employee doing the work, we are still left with $18,000/year which is a VERY HIGH salary converted to Indian Rupees.


Sounds like those Indian lawyers should pick up shop and come to America then.




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