Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

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sperry
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby sperry » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:16 am

RVP11 wrote:
sperry wrote:but it is much easier to land in that top 10% than it is to land in the top 50% at my school, and it's easy to see why. Way less than 10% of people at my state's school would have had any shot at all to get into the school I'm at now.


How do you know this?



Because I have lots of friends at that law school, several of whom are in the top 10%. I'm not saying that I would or wouldn't have finished in the top 10% at that school, merely saying it would be less difficult than finishing in the top half at my current school.

As for getting in, that's just a pure numbers game. The 75th percentile LSAT at the state school is well below the 25th percentile at the current school.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:55 am

sperry wrote:
SBL wrote:
nealric wrote:
1. attending a T25 or better but paying close to sticker
2. attending a decent T1 or T2 but with 75%+ tuition paid for


It seems like the T25 types like WUSTL, Emory, GW got hit the hardest by the recession. They were semi-national, so never got in as well with the good-ol boy network in their local markets. But they were also the first schools the big national firms dropped off their OCI lists when they needed to cut class sizes. As a result, they seem to have gone from placing 30-40% in biglaw to placing 5%-10%. By contrast, most of the lower T14 went from placing 50-60% to placing 25%-35%. The local T2's went from placing 5% to placing 1-2%- not nearly as dramatic of a shift in terms of the numbers affected.

I'm just pulling out numbers off the top of my head, but I think they are pretty good ballpark figures. Bottom line: if you can't swing T14 ITE, there may not be that much advantage for attending middling T1 schools over the local schools.

IDK. I attend a middling T1 school, and it seems like anyone in the top-25% or so had a shot at a firm job. That's not to say everyone with those grades got one, but you definitely didn't need to be top-10% to land a firm job through OCI. By contrast, I'd be incredibly surprised if more than 5% of kids from the local T2 (in my case Santa Clara) has a shot at those jobs. The difference between 5% and 25%, all things being equal, is pretty substantial even if 25% ain't great.



It depends on the quality of student at each school though. At my state's best law school, which is not a particularly great law school, the top 10% has a reasonable shot at very good jobs that pay $100k, while top 2-3% has a chance at national big law. By contrast, the 50-60% of my current school will land big law, but it is much easier to land in that top 10% than it is to land in the top 50% at my school, and it's easy to see why. Way less than 10% of people at my state's school would have had any shot at all to get into the school I'm at now. Pretty much anyone at my current school would be on full ride at the state school.


God damnit, not this idiocy again.

2LLLL
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby 2LLLL » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:14 am

but it is much easier to land in that top 10% than it is to land in the top 50% at my school, and it's easy to see why



Completely untrue - the fact that transfer students typically remain at the top of the schools they transfer into refutes your hypothesis.

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RVP11
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby RVP11 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:41 am

2LLLL wrote:
but it is much easier to land in that top 10% than it is to land in the top 50% at my school, and it's easy to see why



Completely untrue - the fact that transfer students typically remain at the top of the schools they transfer into refutes your hypothesis.


TBF though, transfer students have a lot more incentive to gun 24/7 to "prove themselves."

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:50 am

RVP11 wrote:
2LLLL wrote:
but it is much easier to land in that top 10% than it is to land in the top 50% at my school, and it's easy to see why

Completely untrue - the fact that transfer students typically remain at the top of the schools they transfer into refutes your hypothesis.

TBF though, transfer students have a lot more incentive to gun 24/7 to "prove themselves."

Only as much as they were already trying to "prove themselves" at their old school though.

A&O
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby A&O » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:56 am

2L/3L curves are easier at most top schools.


And many regular students completely check out once the SA offer comes in.

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RVP11
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby RVP11 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:37 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Only as much as they were already trying to "prove themselves" at their old school though.


So they're working as hard as 2Ls as they were as 1Ls? That cuts in favor of my point.

Maybe I hang out with the wrong people, but I know very few people who are working anywhere near as hard as they did last year. And this includes LR grade-ons.

sperry
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby sperry » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:55 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:God damnit, not this idiocy again.



My state's school is significantly worse than the state school you went to. I'm not making a point about any other schools except for the one state school.

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nealric
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby nealric » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:03 pm

And many regular students completely check out once the SA offer comes in.


Not as many as you would think. I actually put in more study hours my 2L year. Most people I know kept working hard.

A&O
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby A&O » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:23 pm

Not as many as you would think. I actually put in more study hours my 2L year. Most people I know kept working hard.


...you don't know how many I would think. I talk to a lot of upperclassmen in my classes, and most of them have checked out. Maybe things were just different at your law school...

Black-Blue
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby Black-Blue » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:27 pm

sperry wrote:Because I have lots of friends at that law school, several of whom are in the top 10%. I'm not saying that I would or wouldn't have finished in the top 10% at that school, merely saying it would be less difficult than finishing in the top half at my current school.

As for getting in, that's just a pure numbers game. The 75th percentile LSAT at the state school is well below the 25th percentile at the current school.

Can't rule out that your friends are better than you at law school, regardless of what LSAT says. 8)

Journeybound
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby Journeybound » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:30 pm

Sure a lot of the 3Ls and some 2Ls with SAs have checked out, but I would still guess that more than 30% of my upper-level classes have students that are still working hard. That means that if I wanted to land top 10%, I would still need to beat out the same people at the same level of competitiveness as last year...

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SehMeSerrious
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby SehMeSerrious » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:33 pm

*****
Last edited by SehMeSerrious on Thu May 19, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A&O
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby A&O » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:34 pm

Journeybound wrote:Sure a lot of the 3Ls and some 2Ls with SAs have checked out, but I would still guess that more than 30% of my upper-level classes have students that are still working hard. That means that if I wanted to land top 10%, I would still need to beat out the same people at the same level of competitiveness as last year...


This is debatable. If most of the class is checked out, that's still a significant decrease in competition from 1L, when 90% of the class was gunning in one way or another.

I know a lot of people who are still gunning too. They are significantly outnumbered. And it's nothing like 1L year.

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nealric
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby nealric » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:42 pm

I talk to a lot of upperclassmen in my classes, and most of them have checked out. Maybe things were just different at your law school...


*Tells 1L "yeah, man I've totally checked out his year"*
*Heads over to library for 12 hour study session*

A&O
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby A&O » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:45 pm

*Tells 1L "yeah, man I've totally checked out his year"*
*Heads over to library for 12 hour study session*


Too bad I'm not a 1L.

This is the second time in this thread you claim to know what I think or who I am, without knowing either. I'm impressed!

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nealric
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby nealric » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:46 pm

This is the second time in this thread you claim to know what I think or who I am, without knowing either. I'm impressed!



I got me one of these:
--ImageRemoved--


--ImageRemoved--

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:34 pm

RVP11 wrote:
2LLLL wrote:
but it is much easier to land in that top 10% than it is to land in the top 50% at my school, and it's easy to see why



Completely untrue - the fact that transfer students typically remain at the top of the schools they transfer into refutes your hypothesis.


TBF though, transfer students have a lot more incentive to gun 24/7 to "prove themselves."


The transfers I know have the same spectrum of caring as the rest of the student body. I know that I don't do a damn thing anymore.

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RVP11
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby RVP11 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:40 pm

Journeybound wrote:Sure a lot of the 3Ls and some 2Ls with SAs have checked out, but I would still guess that more than 30% of my upper-level classes have students that are still working hard. That means that if I wanted to land top 10%, I would still need to beat out the same people at the same level of competitiveness as last year...


You're gonna need more than hard work if this is reflective of your capacity for logic.

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rayiner
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby rayiner » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:44 pm

I think a lot of people are checked out. On the other hand, because you don't have sections anymore, you potentially end up in classes with a disproportionate number of people with good grades.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:45 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Journeybound wrote:Sure a lot of the 3Ls and some 2Ls with SAs have checked out, but I would still guess that more than 30% of my upper-level classes have students that are still working hard. That means that if I wanted to land top 10%, I would still need to beat out the same people at the same level of competitiveness as last year...


You're gonna need more than hard work if this is reflective of your capacity for logic.


There is a valid point in there, if you presume that the 30% of people still working hard are the same ones who occupied the top 10% field the previous year.

TBF, that isn't an entirely unfair presumption to make, either. A good chunk of the people who continue to work hard in 2L are the clerkship gunners. Those folks are going to be the top 10-20%. So, if you want to elbow in on that turf, you're going to need to be at that level.

Totally falls apart lower than 20% or so (I agree whole-heartedly that transfers really have an easier time landing in the ~25% range,) totally falls apart if you're generally taking uncurved classes or classes where the clerkship gunners don't tend to congregate (both of those aspects are going to vary from school to school - it's impossible to dodge the curve at Chicago, but I'm under the impression it's easier to do elsewhere,) etc.

But anyone who argues that it's easy for anyone to waltz in to the top 10% at any respectable school is full of it.

A&O
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby A&O » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:51 pm

But anyone who argues that it's easy for anyone to waltz in to the top 10% at any respectable school is full of it.


If you're doing all seminars, it's easy.

If you're taking gunner clerkship courses, it's harder. Even harder than 1L, depending on the course.

Gunner Clerkship Courses:
Admin
Corporations
Fed Courts
Evidence
Securities Regulation
Income Tax

Might be a few others I'm missing.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:03 pm

A&O wrote:
But anyone who argues that it's easy for anyone to waltz in to the top 10% at any respectable school is full of it.


If you're doing all seminars, it's easy.

If you're taking gunner clerkship courses, it's harder. Even harder than 1L, depending on the course.

Gunner Clerkship Courses:
Admin
Corporations
Fed Courts
Evidence
Securities Regulation
Income Tax

Might be a few others I'm missing.


Bankruptcy, Corp tax, etc. etc. etc.

I don't get the hate on seminars. My lowest grades have come from seminar/"off-the-curve" classes. Just because something is a seminar doesn't mean it's easy, doesn't mean the profs will give out As like candy, etc. Maybe it means that at some schools.

A&O
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby A&O » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:04 pm

It is the case at my school.

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nealric
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Re: Why is Biglaw the only financially viable option?

Postby nealric » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:16 pm

Gunner Clerkship Courses:
Admin
Corporations
Fed Courts
Evidence
Securities Regulation
Income Tax


I don't think Corporations, Evidence, and Tax I really belong there. Almost everyone (at least at Georgetown) took Corporations and Evidence. The subject matter of Tax I is pretty basic. Upper level tax classes can be pretty brutal- but the problem there tends to be the ringers (i.e. CPAs taking Income Tax Accounting).




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