Academia: Where to proceed from here.

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Anonymous User
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Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:01 am

I'm a 2L at CCN who ultimately wants to teach.

I have a SA position at a V3 firm this summer.

In the event that I get an offer, what should my plan be?

I'm taking out 180K in loans so I really just want to start working asap and pay it off. But realistically, I know I should clerk first.

I'm also interested in getting an LL.M, although I think it's sort of pointless.

My professors are a mixed bag of LL.Ms and non-LL.Ms. But almost without exception, they've all clerked.

What do you guys think? Thanks!

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NoleinNY
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby NoleinNY » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:30 am

Are you on LR? Looks like you know about the importance of clerking. Those seem like "must haves" for academia, just by looking at most faculty members at my school and the schools I applied to (T1 and T2).

Unless you want to be an adjunct, in which case be a baller lawyer.
Last edited by NoleinNY on Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Lawl Shcool » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:31 am

I would start working right away, knock out the loans then go clerk in 4-5 years once you are out of debt and have a lil cash saved.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:44 am

JPU wrote:I would start working right away, knock out the loans then go clerk in 4-5 years once you are out of debt and have a lil cash saved.


TCR. A clerkship can serve the purpose of a springboard out of biglaw and into academia, particularly if it is a 2/7/9, and especially D.C. circuit clerkship. A number of judges really like to see work experience nowadays to, so working at a big firm first would be useful -- and it is something that will help for getting into academia. I'd say 2-3 years at a firm would be sufficient (that's what a lot of tenure track profs seems to have). Also 2-3 years at $160K /year should be more than sufficient to get out of debt (although, I'm not sure why that would be consideration here -- law profs make a killing when you consider that they only work something like 20-30 hours a week).

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MrKappus
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby MrKappus » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:13 am

Given the (relatively) recent trend of WE being a big factor in clerkship hiring, it seems TCR is to work at your "V3" (lol...aka SC?) for a few years, apply for "prestigious" clerkships, ????, and profit. In the mean time, even though your schedule's going to suck, you need to work on getting published, early and often, if possible. Since everyone at the Meatmarkets have similar credentials (top grades, top schools, LR's, and V10 jobs), published papers is one of the last/best ways to stand out. Good luck. It'll be an uphill battle, but the summit's well worth it, I imagine.

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jonas
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby jonas » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:20 am

You could also consider skipping the firm route altogether. It could go like this: clerkship #1, maybe clerkship #2, prestigious govt or nonprofit for a couple of years, maybe a one- or two-year teaching fellowship, then onto the tenure-track teaching market.

Also, instead of an LLM, you might consider a PhD in a law-related discipline. In recent years, more and more new faculty hires have been PhD/JDs.

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nealric
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby nealric » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:48 am

Work a few years at the V3 ---> Clerkship --> Academia

Don't forget to publish along the way!

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RVP11
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby RVP11 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:52 am

V3? Just say S&C, bro. We know it's not Wachtell or Cravath if you're listing the firm range.

heyguys
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby heyguys » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:02 pm

Three things you should be thinking about, with the most important coming first:

1) publishpublishpublishpublishpublishpublish

Seriously....start working on publications. Like....yesterday.

2) Seriously consider a joint degree, depending on your area of focus.

3) Clerking--it's important, but not as important as the two above^^.


But seriously. Publish. Law schools don't just hire geniuses and ballers anymore--they're looking for people who produce quality work.

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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:26 pm

Isn't clerking in this sense all about showing you have the chops to write? Why not just publish a lot and forgo clerking then?

I'm on a student panel that interviews faculty candidates at my school. A couple of candidates have taken that route. One person was on 3 journals in school, and had something like 15 published works in 3 years of law school and 3 years of practice.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:35 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:Isn't clerking in this sense all about showing you have the chops to write? Why not just publish a lot and forgo clerking then.


It seems like the vast majority of law profs did clerk, which implies to me that it is an unwritten requirement. Plus, clerking is actually a year or two or work that you can enjoy, unlike working for a firm (i.e. you get things like easy 9-5 work days and fairly light workloads at the Fed CoA level). You also get a connection to a federal judge who is fairly connected, and a mini-network through all the people who previously clerked for that judge or court. Plus, there's really nothing more prestigious that you can do than clerk for a rock star 2/7/9/DC CoA judge (except SCOTUS), so it's huge PLUS on your resume which isn't there if you don't clerk. IMO, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to not clerk if you want to become a law prof (i.e. there's a lot of advantages and not really any disadvantages except losing a little money in terms of salary for that year or two).

Anonymous User
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:37 pm

OP here.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm working on my note/comment for my journal right now, which should hopefully (fingers crossed for not getting preempted) be published this Spring.

I'll be doing corporate work this summer at Wachtell/ CSM (I should have just said this to start but I'm concerned about outing myself, blah blah).

Any thoughts on whether my potential publications should be on LRs (if they allow student articles), or can they be on non-LR publications from other universities?

Thanks again, I appreciate the advice.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Lawl Shcool » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:59 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
* Except on some extremely busy district courts or for certain 9th Cir. judges who shall remain nameless.


The judge you speak of isn't exactly shy about the hours (s)he requires.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:17 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
you get things like easy 9-5 work days and fairly light workloads at the Fed CoA level
I wish! This isn't the case for most clerks I know, and certainly isn't on my court. We work more like 830-6. Sometimes more than that (+ occasional weekends), sometimes less. Right now, the workload is actually pretty heavy. Clerking is definitely better hours-wise than biglaw,* but in many (most?) cases it isn't a 9-5 job.

* Except on some extremely busy district courts or for certain 9th Cir. judges who shall remain nameless.


Are you at a ciruit? Out of the alumni I talked to who did circuit court clerkships they typically said the hours were close to 40 hours a week (on average), and some said that they thought a district court might have been a better experience in terms of a practical clerkship since they didn't really have all that much work (although they still preferred the circuit because of the prestige, obviously). The overall impression I got is that circuit court judges aren't under much pressure to move their dockets along, so they don't. I guess some judges might be different though (I didn't really talk to any DC circuit clerks, if that's where you are).

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ResolutePear
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:18 pm

Publish or perish.

Tattoo those words across your chest and look yourself in the mirror every morning just like any other PhD.

Also, from what I was told: it depends on the school. Obviously higher caliber schools want higher caliber faculty to "show off." Hence, why CCN would have clerk'd out faculty. I suspect lower-ranked schools will give you the job with less.

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D-ROCCA
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby D-ROCCA » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:56 pm

@ GTL Rev, JPU, or anyone else with extensive knowledge on clerkships. What's the best resource for learning about federal clerkships? It seems like there isn't much out there on the internet, or at least not much I've come across. I've checked out Law Clerk Addict, but haven't found much helpful information. I know top grades and law review are essentially pre-reqs, but know very little about the selection process and how best to set myself up to be competitive for a clerkship in the future.

Full Disclosure: I'm a gunner 0L who just wants to learn about clerkships and whether or not I should pursue one.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Lawl Shcool » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:01 pm

D-ROCCA wrote:@ GTL Rev, JPU, or anyone else with extensive knowledge on clerkships. What's the best resource for learning about federal clerkships? It seems like there isn't much out there on the internet, or at least not much I've come across. I've checked out Law Clerk Addict, but haven't found much helpful information. I know top grades and law review are essentially pre-reqs, but know very little about the selection process and how best to set myself up to be competitive for a clerkship in the future.

Full Disclosure: I'm a gunner 0L who just wants to learn about clerkships and whether or not I should pursue one.


I am far from an expert on clerkships, I am just a lowly 2L. But from what I understand top grades + LR (or other journal to some extent) are definitely pre-reqs with the more desirable locations/courts being more competitive than more undesirable locations, but still very tough to get.

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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:06 pm

Since we are on the topic of academia and JD.....if you have a JD/PhD in government from G-town Law (and an impressive resume), where might you end up teaching? Would teaching at Columbia Law be possible? An upper/middle/or lower tier 1 law school? Tier 2 law school?

Thanks!

spondee
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby spondee » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:08 pm

All are possible. It'll depend on your scholarship.

Anonymous User
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:27 pm

Spondee- at what point (law school employment) are you selling yourself short? More precisely, where can one minimally expect to teach with a JD/PhD in government from Georgetown Law?

spondee
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby spondee » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:34 pm

Selling yourself short in what way? Any T1/T2 school is a respectable place to begin as a professor - and not an easy position to get.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Spondee- at what point (law school employment) are you selling yourself short? More precisely, where can one minimally expect to teach with a JD/PhD in government from Georgetown Law?


As with any kind of academia, you take what you can get. The only difference between Law and other types of academia is that generally people who can get law prof gigs could get high-paying jobs elsewhere, so there are more options in that way. But eventually the academia door closes in law - from my understanding, people who have been practicing for too long are seen as "tainted," at least as far as tenure-track positions go.

Adjunct positions are different, obviously.

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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Just thought that G-town PhD/JD should end up with at least in G-town or higher. But good to know your info. Thanks!

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just thought that G-town PhD/JD should end up with at least in G-town or higher. But good to know your info. Thanks!


Yeah, this is an absolutely horrible assumption to make. Frankly, the people getting those gigs - particularly early in their careers - will be HYS (mostly Y) grads.

spondee
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Re: Academia: Where to proceed from here.

Postby spondee » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:56 pm

Look at your Profs bios/CVs, particularly the young ones. And find out how the recent top graduates have done/where they've placed. That'll give you a better sense.




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