How prestigious is an Article IV court?

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Anonymous User
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How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:58 am

Pretty much all of them would be an awesome place to live for a year (IMO). In terms of prestige, would it be the equivalent to an article III clerkship in a bad location (e.g. utah)? How would it stack up in comparison to an Article I clerkship (e.g. bankruptcy)?

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RVP11
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby RVP11 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:Pretty much all of them would be an awesome place to live for a year (IMO). In terms of prestige, would it be the equivalent to an article III clerkship in a bad location (e.g. utah)? How would it stack up in comparison to an Article I clerkship (e.g. bankruptcy)?


Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere.

And, BTW, Utah is not a "bad" location by any means in the legal world. I'm sensing some eastern bias, or someone who has never been to Utah.

Aqualibrium
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Aqualibrium » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:06 am

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Pretty much all of them would be an awesome place to live for a year (IMO). In terms of prestige, would it be the equivalent to an article III clerkship in a bad location (e.g. utah)? How would it stack up in comparison to an Article I clerkship (e.g. bankruptcy)?


Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere.

And, BTW, Utah is not a "bad" location by any means in the legal world. I'm sensing some eastern bias, or someone who has never been to Utah.



It's Utah!

Though I suppose many people would say the same thing about Louisiana or Alabama, two places I actually enjoy.

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RVP11
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby RVP11 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:11 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Pretty much all of them would be an awesome place to live for a year (IMO). In terms of prestige, would it be the equivalent to an article III clerkship in a bad location (e.g. utah)? How would it stack up in comparison to an Article I clerkship (e.g. bankruptcy)?


Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere.

And, BTW, Utah is not a "bad" location by any means in the legal world. I'm sensing some eastern bias, or someone who has never been to Utah.



It's Utah!

Though I suppose many people would say the same thing about Louisiana or Alabama, two places I actually enjoy.


But the quality of lawyers/judges in Utah >>> quality of lawyers/judges in most states. Throwing the District of Utah out there as a crappy federal district court is just asinine. There are some great legal minds among the Mormons.

If we want to talk about not-very-prestigious districts, let's look at Alaska, Rhode Island, E.D. Washington, Montana, North Dakota, and various small districts in the South and Midwest.

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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:35 am

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Pretty much all of them would be an awesome place to live for a year (IMO). In terms of prestige, would it be the equivalent to an article III clerkship in a bad location (e.g. utah)? How would it stack up in comparison to an Article I clerkship (e.g. bankruptcy)?


Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere.

And, BTW, Utah is not a "bad" location by any means in the legal world. I'm sensing some eastern bias, or someone who has never been to Utah.


This is true to some extent. BK in Chicago/NYC/Delaware is actually better than Article III for bankruptcy. But generally, your point is accurate, and I agree with it. The question is, if we were to assume "Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere," then where does an Article IV court fit in that mix? Is it about equivalent to the article III court in Utah? Better? Worse? What about in comparison to an Article I court?

Also, the point of this thread was not to argue whether Utah is a bad location. Feel free to substitute whatever you think is a bad location in there.

Anonymous User
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:03 pm

Probably a dumb question but what are BK and article IV courts?

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OGR3
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby OGR3 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:05 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Pretty much all of them would be an awesome place to live for a year (IMO). In terms of prestige, would it be the equivalent to an article III clerkship in a bad location (e.g. utah)? How would it stack up in comparison to an Article I clerkship (e.g. bankruptcy)?


Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere.

And, BTW, Utah is not a "bad" location by any means in the legal world. I'm sensing some eastern bias, or someone who has never been to Utah.



It's Utah!

Though I suppose many people would say the same thing about Louisiana or Alabama, two places I actually enjoy.


But the quality of lawyers/judges in Utah >>> quality of lawyers/judges in most states. Throwing the District of Utah out there as a crappy federal district court is just asinine. There are some great legal minds among the Mormons.

If we want to talk about not-very-prestigious districts, let's look at Alaska, Rhode Island, E.D. Washington, Montana, North Dakota, and various small districts in the South and Midwest.


I'd take an Article III clerkship in any of those districts.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Pretty much all of them would be an awesome place to live for a year (IMO). In terms of prestige, would it be the equivalent to an article III clerkship in a bad location (e.g. utah)? How would it stack up in comparison to an Article I clerkship (e.g. bankruptcy)?


Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere.

And, BTW, Utah is not a "bad" location by any means in the legal world. I'm sensing some eastern bias, or someone who has never been to Utah.


This is true to some extent. BK in Chicago/NYC/Delaware is actually better than Article III for bankruptcy. But generally, your point is accurate, and I agree with it. The question is, if we were to assume "Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere," then where does an Article IV court fit in that mix? Is it about equivalent to the article III court in Utah? Better? Worse? What about in comparison to an Article I court?

Also, the point of this thread was not to argue whether Utah is a bad location. Feel free to substitute whatever you think is a bad location in there.


No. At least not according to the hiring partners I know at one of the ~three best debtor-side bankruptcy shops in the country. Just throwing that out there.

Plus, just because you get a BK court in Chicago doesn't mean you're getting the Ch. 11 cases. There are only two BK judges in Chicago that do the (fairly limited) number of Ch. 11 filings. Same for NYC. The only jurisdiction you're almost sure to get primarily Ch. 11 experience in is DA.

Edit: And I'm apparently daft, because I can't determine precisely what an Article IV court would be. The Full Faith and Credit Court?

ak362
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby ak362 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:25 pm

Territorial courts (e.g. Guam, Virgin Islands, Northern Marianas). Comes from Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:26 pm

ak362 wrote:Territorial courts (e.g. Guam, Virgin Islands, Northern Marianas). Comes from Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.


Fair enough. Good to know.

ak362
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby ak362 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:32 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
ak362 wrote:Territorial courts (e.g. Guam, Virgin Islands, Northern Marianas). Comes from Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.


Fair enough. Good to know.


Yeah, I had no idea either until I had to learn what an Article IV court was for work.

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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:24 am

So many responses, but no one answered my original question. Does anyone have a clue as to where Article IV courts fit into the mix in terms of prestige?

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RVP11
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby RVP11 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:So many responses, but no one answered my original question. Does anyone have a clue as to where Article IV courts fit into the mix in terms of prestige?


Definitely below all Article III courts. I'm not sure how BK courts fit in.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So many responses, but no one answered my original question. Does anyone have a clue as to where Article IV courts fit into the mix in terms of prestige?


Pretty safe bet that when lots of people don't have any idea what an Article IV court is, it's probably pretty low on the prestige scale.

Anonymous User
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:43 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So many responses, but no one answered my original question. Does anyone have a clue as to where Article IV courts fit into the mix in terms of prestige?


Pretty safe bet that when lots of people don't have any idea what an Article IV court is, it's probably pretty low on the prestige scale.


A lot of people probably just think that those courts are article III courts though (e.g. the US D.C. in Puerto Rico is an article III court, and I think most people would agree that's a fairly prestigious court even though it's not in the US). Also, there's only 3 article IV courts, so I'm not sure whether knowledge of these courts is an accurate indicator of prestige (i.e. everyone knows about BK courts, but BK is a pretty big thing, and there are a ton of BK courts throughout the US).

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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:45 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So many responses, but no one answered my original question. Does anyone have a clue as to where Article IV courts fit into the mix in terms of prestige?


Definitely below all Article III courts. I'm not sure how BK courts fit in.


Interesting. Any thoughts on why (e.g. why is the D.C. in Puerto Rico more prestigious than a D.C. in the U.S. Virgin Islands)?

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RVP11
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby RVP11 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So many responses, but no one answered my original question. Does anyone have a clue as to where Article IV courts fit into the mix in terms of prestige?


Definitely below all Article III courts. I'm not sure how BK courts fit in.


Interesting. Any thoughts on why (e.g. why is the D.C. in Puerto Rico more prestigious than a D.C. in the U.S. Virgin Islands)?


Because it's an Article III court?

Anonymous User
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:57 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So many responses, but no one answered my original question. Does anyone have a clue as to where Article IV courts fit into the mix in terms of prestige?


Definitely below all Article III courts. I'm not sure how BK courts fit in.


Interesting. Any thoughts on why (e.g. why is the D.C. in Puerto Rico more prestigious than a D.C. in the U.S. Virgin Islands)?


Because it's an Article III court?


That's not a circular argument at all...

Renzo
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Renzo » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Interesting. Any thoughts on why (e.g. why is the D.C. in Puerto Rico more prestigious than a D.C. in the U.S. Virgin Islands)?


Because it's an Article III court?


That's not a circular argument at all...


So it can't be circular and true?
Why is Harvard more prestigious than UPenn?

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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:13 pm

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Interesting. Any thoughts on why (e.g. why is the D.C. in Puerto Rico more prestigious than a D.C. in the U.S. Virgin Islands)?


Because it's an Article III court?


That's not a circular argument at all...


So it can't be circular and true?
Why is Harvard more prestigious than UPenn?


There are numerous quantifiable reasons, which are easily findable, as to why Harvard is more prestigious than Penn (e.g. career prospects, overall quality of the student body, endowment, faculty, etc.). Not sure what the quantifiable differences between an Article III court in a bad location (or even puerto rico) and an Article IV court are. Some actual facts here about differences between the courts that makes one more prestigious than the other would be a lot better of a reason than simply "because it's an Article III court."

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NU_Jet55
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby NU_Jet55 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:32 pm

lol @ great legal minds living Utah...I don't care if Posner himself practiced in Utah, i still wouldn't let my dog live there.

Renzo
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby Renzo » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There are numerous quantifiable reasons, which are easily findable, as to why Harvard is more prestigious than Penn (e.g. career prospects, overall quality of the student body, endowment, faculty, etc.). Not sure what the quantifiable differences between an Article III court in a bad location (or even puerto rico) and an Article IV court are. Some actual facts here about differences between the courts that makes one more prestigious than the other would be a lot better of a reason than simply "because it's an Article III court."

And why does Harvard have better faculty, better career prospects, and a better student body? Because its more prestigious!

See where I'm going here?

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wiseowl
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby wiseowl » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:29 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Pretty much all of them would be an awesome place to live for a year (IMO). In terms of prestige, would it be the equivalent to an article III clerkship in a bad location (e.g. utah)? How would it stack up in comparison to an Article I clerkship (e.g. bankruptcy)?


Article III in Utah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BK just about anywhere.

And, BTW, Utah is not a "bad" location by any means in the legal world. I'm sensing some eastern bias, or someone who has never been to Utah.



It's Utah!

Though I suppose many people would say the same thing about Louisiana or Alabama, two places I actually enjoy.


But the quality of lawyers/judges in Utah >>> quality of lawyers/judges in most states. Throwing the District of Utah out there as a crappy federal district court is just asinine. There are some great legal minds among the Mormons.

If we want to talk about not-very-prestigious districts, let's look at Alaska, Rhode Island, E.D. Washington, Montana, North Dakota, and various small districts in the South and Midwest.


Alaska is widely considered a pretty prestigious clerkship since they have so many cases of first impression.

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RVP11
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:13 pm

NU_Jet55 wrote:lol @ great legal minds living Utah...I don't care if Posner himself practiced in Utah, i still wouldn't let my dog live there.


Says the guy who lets his dog live in Missouri? ROFLcopter.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: How prestigious is an Article IV court?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:15 pm

wiseowl wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
RVP11 wrote:

It's Utah!

Though I suppose many people would say the same thing about Louisiana or Alabama, two places I actually enjoy.


But the quality of lawyers/judges in Utah >>> quality of lawyers/judges in most states. Throwing the District of Utah out there as a crappy federal district court is just asinine. There are some great legal minds among the Mormons.

If we want to talk about not-very-prestigious districts, let's look at Alaska, Rhode Island, E.D. Washington, Montana, North Dakota, and various small districts in the South and Midwest.


Alaska is widely considered a pretty prestigious clerkship since they have so many cases of first impression.


I would imagine western district of Washington would be really good for Seattle... I'm not sure why Washington was lumped into the same group as Montana, and somehow a district court in Utah is more prestigious than the western district of washington -- WTF? I think that dude is just trolling.




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