Dropping out?

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2030
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby 2030 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:47 am

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Last edited by 2030 on Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Aqualibrium » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:59 am

2030 wrote:Does anyone have advice for a 1L considering dropping out? I am at a T30 and I get the feeling my grades won't be what they need to be to justify staying here. I could cut my losses after first semester and only be ~20K in debt. Will it be too early to make a good decision based on one semester of grades, or should I trust my gut?



Going into exams thinking like this is a great way to fuck yourself over. You are a 1L and exams are just weeks away. Get the hell off TLS, deactivate your facebook account, tell your family you'll talk to them in a month. What the hell is your problem? Don't worry about something you can't act on for at a minimum 2 months. Take care of the things that are within your control.

2030
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby 2030 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:05 am

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Last edited by 2030 on Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Aqualibrium » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:19 am

2030 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
2030 wrote:Does anyone have advice for a 1L considering dropping out? I am at a T30 and I get the feeling my grades won't be what they need to be to justify staying here. I could cut my losses after first semester and only be ~20K in debt. Will it be too early to make a good decision based on one semester of grades, or should I trust my gut?



Going into exams thinking like this is a great way to fuck yourself over. You are a 1L and exams are just weeks away. Get the hell off TLS, deactivate your facebook account, tell your family you'll talk to them in a month. What the hell is your problem? Don't worry about something you can't act on for at a minimum 2 months. Take care of the things that are within your control.

Lol all good advice, and I'm really hoping to stay. Outlines are up to date and I'm starting practice exams this weekend. I'm not looking for a way out but just want to make a good financial decision (lol I should have thought about that 6 months ago amirite?). This thread caught my eye so I figured I'd ask.


Go away and don't comeback until you finish your exams. Better yet, don't come back until you get your grades.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is a tough problem OP, are you sure body language, clothing, tone of voice are okay. I think it must be more than simply seeming disinterested. Most law students are probably on the more introverted side.



You all keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

jarofsoup
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby jarofsoup » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:54 pm

I think this would be a horrible reason to drop out. You have the good grades from a top school.

Mock interview. Practice practice practice. You do not have to be wonder boy to get a job. Just clear and composed.

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This is a tough problem OP, are you sure body language, clothing, tone of voice are okay. I think it must be more than simply seeming disinterested. Most law students are probably on the more introverted side.



You all keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

I assume you're referring to this:
Merriam-Webster wrote:dis·in·ter·est·ed adj
2 : free from selfish motive or interest : unbiased <a disinterested decision> <disinterested intellectual curiosity is the lifeblood of real civilization — G. M. Trevelyan>

But you're overlooking this:
Merriam-Webster wrote:1 a : not having the mind or feelings engaged : not interested <telling them in a disinterested voice — Tom Wicker> <disinterested in women — J. A. Brussel>

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also struck out and seriously considering dropping out. It is just crazy how different my life's outlook is from a year ago, or even just a couple of months ago. A year ago, I was getting ready for 1L finals, and feeling on top of the world. Got my grades back in January, and they were pretty much right at the median, so I was feeling pretty good, and like I'd proved that I can hold my own at a top 10 school. Grades were similar second semester, and I was a little bit below median, so I was nervous but hopeful heading into OCI.


Fast forward to now. I struck out, and it's like all of a sudden I"ve gone from high hopes to realizing that I just spent a collossal amount of money for absolutely no gain. I'm even super lucky because I'm only on the hook for one year of law school, my parents were generous enough to pay for the other two. Still, I'm going to graduate with about $80-$90k of debt and zero hope whatsoever of landing a decent job. Earning $40-50,000 straight out of college would have felt fine, as I would have had no debt. Instead, I'm going to be in the wonderful position of having paid about $80k for the privilege of wasting 3 years of my life. When you tack on the $120,000 or so I could have made in these 3 years working, and I'm out about $200,000 and in no better shape than I was. Fucking sucks.


I'm top 3rd at a TT. Full scholarship. Dropping out after this semester. Will leave with 30k in debt, should have not come back this year. Only people I know with jobs for next summer are top 10%/LR or URM. I saw the writing on the wall, but didn't read it until too late.

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20160810
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby 20160810 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:56 pm

JazzOne wrote:I really feel for you OP. I didn't get any job offers until very late in the hiring season. I felt depression and shame. I felt like I had dragged my family through a huge ordeal just so I could fail. I felt like a failure. It's amazing how this environment can tear you down. You need to get rid of this stench of desperation. That's step number 1. Get into the gym, take care of your diet, and work on your mental health. No one will hire you until you get out of this funk. Pull your shit together dude. No one wants to hire a frumpy sock. Lawyers must have confidence and charisma. You have to walk into your interview with a smile on your face, not a dear in the headlights look.


This is WITHOUT QUESTION the best advice I've seen ITT. Work on the guns, and success will follow. OCI is like trying to impress girls: If you're a sad sack, you will ALWAYS be stuck punching below your weight, but if you're one of those guys who can cultivate an air of bulletproof confidence without seeming like an asshole, the world is your oyster.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:28 pm

I'm a T2 2L, top 15% and I also thought about dropping out after my first year given how terrible the job market is. My school's OCI was only about 20 firms, and took place in last two weeks of August. I went into it with the plan of not paying my tuition bill until I had the results of OCI in-hand. By not the paying the Fall tuition bill until late October, the only consequence was a $200 late fee. If I didn't get a job, then I too would cut my losses, leaving only $35k in the hole.

In this market, it seems that securing a summer associateship is NECESSARY to make full-tuition law school a financially-sound decision (Tuition+living costs+deferred earnings). Now what I'm wondering from people out there is Why Aren't more law students going into OCI with a plan similar to mine? Why not refuse to pay your school until you find out whether law school was a financially-sound decision of not? Do other schools have more strict policies about tuition payment?

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dood
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby dood » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:35 pm

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Last edited by dood on Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm

pasteurizedmilk wrote:What, specifically, is wrong with your interviewing?



My main interviewing problem, as I see it, is that I am very low key and fairly introverted. Which I think leads my interviewers to think I am not interested in their Firm. The feedback I got from my interviews was that I come across as disinterested in the firm and that I fail to connect with my interviewers.


Me too man. Me too. It's a bad way to interview.

So you fake it. Smile at the very beggining and the very end. Smile periodically throughout, when appropriate (when the interviewer smiles or makes a joke, in case you're a total aspie). Be enthusiastic. Specifically, sit upright in your chair, animate your facial features (if you can't or don't feel comfortable doing other things, smile) and lean forward for ~ half the interview. If the interviewer brigns up something they have in common with you, keep the conversation headed that way for a while. With your grades they just want to see if they can tolerate working with you, so it's to your interest to establish common links and make them like you.

As for interest in the firm - at any point when they're asnwering your questions about the firm (of hwich you should ahve 10-15 ready beforehand, preparation counts) chime in and say "I'm glad to hear that" "that really appeals to me" "sounds like a great place to work" etc. Ask follow-up questions.

I was a bad itnerviewer as well, and struck out at my first 5 callbacks. I got offers at 5 of the next 6 places I interviewed with. You can improve, you just ahve to change your tactic.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:06 pm

OP here. I have tried all of the things you suggest, some of them from the beginning and some of them I changed later. What is interesting is that most of the feedback came from firms with whom I did Cbs and after I had changed my interviewing style along the lines you suggest. It is interesting, because these are thing things I have been told to do since the beginning of my speaking with career services. I think one thing I was doing wrong, and only corrected starting with my most recent interview, is that if a interviewer was responding to my question I would generally just let them talk, because the way most of them speak there are no pauses, so it really feels like you are interrupting them. Also, whenever someone boasts about their firm, even if I like what they are saying, I feel extremely uncomfortable saying "oh that sounds great" or words to that effect. I feel that way because that is the sort of comment that if I were the interviewer I would never really believe, or at the very least would have no reason to think was true. It just seems so fake, like telling a girl you just met how that she is beautiful girl in the world or something. It just seems so, fake even if you think it is true. Nevertheless I do not think that is the way interviewers see it.

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northwood
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby northwood » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:21 pm

OP You need to work on interviewing skills. It doesnt matter if you are in LS or not. If you suck at interviewing, it will be very difficult to get any job, regardless of job type. Before dropping out, practice interviewing. It seems that interviews are your biggest hurdle. Are you really going to give up you law dream because of this? Do you have a sound back up plan? If so, then do what you want. If you dont, then I would recommend a leave of absence to figure out what you want to do.

dont make a rash decision. Switching careers is a major thing. make sure to do your homework and make sure its what you really want before you do leave. You need to take some time off, remove yourself from the rat race and do some serious soul searching. Before you have to tell them if you are coming back, make sure you have a plan A, and a plan B. Then forget all about this and move on. You will be fine- although its going to take a while to realize this.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. I have tried all of the things you suggest, some of them from the beginning and some of them I changed later. What is interesting is that most of the feedback came from firms with whom I did Cbs and after I had changed my interviewing style along the lines you suggest. It is interesting, because these are thing things I have been told to do since the beginning of my speaking with career services. I think one thing I was doing wrong, and only corrected starting with my most recent interview, is that if a interviewer was responding to my question I would generally just let them talk, because the way most of them speak there are no pauses, so it really feels like you are interrupting them. Also, whenever someone boasts about their firm, even if I like what they are saying, I feel extremely uncomfortable saying "oh that sounds great" or words to that effect. I feel that way because that is the sort of comment that if I were the interviewer I would never really believe, or at the very least would have no reason to think was true. It just seems so fake, like telling a girl you just met how that she is beautiful girl in the world or something. It just seems so, fake even if you think it is true. Nevertheless I do not think that is the way interviewers see it.

Uh it's an interview dude. It's all fake. Smoke and mirrors.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:12 pm

pasteurizedmilk wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. I have tried all of the things you suggest, some of them from the beginning and some of them I changed later. What is interesting is that most of the feedback came from firms with whom I did Cbs and after I had changed my interviewing style along the lines you suggest. It is interesting, because these are thing things I have been told to do since the beginning of my speaking with career services. I think one thing I was doing wrong, and only corrected starting with my most recent interview, is that if a interviewer was responding to my question I would generally just let them talk, because the way most of them speak there are no pauses, so it really feels like you are interrupting them. Also, whenever someone boasts about their firm, even if I like what they are saying, I feel extremely uncomfortable saying "oh that sounds great" or words to that effect. I feel that way because that is the sort of comment that if I were the interviewer I would never really believe, or at the very least would have no reason to think was true. It just seems so fake, like telling a girl you just met how that she is beautiful girl in the world or something. It just seems so, fake even if you think it is true. Nevertheless I do not think that is the way interviewers see it.

Uh it's an interview dude. It's all fake. Smoke and mirrors.


Yes, I gathered that after 40 interviews. It still makes me feel kind of cheap and fraudulent though. But I do understand that dishonesty, or at least phony enthusiasm is part of the game, or I understand that now three months after it would have done me some good.

keg411
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby keg411 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:43 pm

This is more of a "long run" comment than a "get me a job ASAP" comment, but OP, you should see if your school will let you take an intro-theater class Spring semester. It's a good way to gain confidence and learn how to seem more outgoing and friendly. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you can't come across as friendly and excited.

As for your PI comment, a job is a job. Don't feel like you have to go into business just because you're conservative. Maybe it's not a fit for your personality.

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NewHere
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby NewHere » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:48 pm

I feel extremely uncomfortable saying "oh that sounds great" or words to that effect. I feel that way because that is the sort of comment that if I were the interviewer I would never really believe, or at the very least would have no reason to think was true. It just seems so fake, like telling a girl you just met how that she is beautiful girl in the world or something. It just seems so, fake even if you think it is true. Nevertheless I do not think that is the way interviewers see it.


Why is "that sounds great" fake, except when you actually don't think it sounds good?

It's not as if you're saying "that is great" or "This is the best firm in the world!" or anything along those lines. To me, "that sounds great" implies "I get a favorable impression from what you are saying" and maybe "If this organization is the way you are representing it to me, it sounds pretty good."

To make it sound more sincere, you could always add a sentence or two on why you think it sounds great. "Your main practice is X? That sounds great! I took a class in X and I liked it a lot." "Your firm allows you to work from home? That sounds great! Even if you have to work in the evening, that way you can at least have dinner at home." Etc.

I think you need to stop observing yourself during an interview and stop wondering what your friends would say if they heard you. Just focus on the interviewer and give sincere answers.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:55 pm

keg411 wrote:This is more of a "long run" comment than a "get me a job ASAP" comment, but OP, you should see if your school will let you take an intro-theater class Spring semester. It's a good way to gain confidence and learn how to seem more outgoing and friendly. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you can't come across as friendly and excited.

As for your PI comment, a job is a job. Don't feel like you have to go into business just because you're conservative. Maybe it's not a fit for your personality.


That is certainly a possibility but I would rather quit the law and do something else then spend my time working for a cause I consider to be evil or immoral. I mean, it is certainly the case that one has to make sacrifices and do unpleasant things as part of a job. But that seems to me to be quite a different thing that working for an organization dedicated to something that you would spend a life time opposing. I am not saying I could not do any PI work, but I am saying that something like 80% or 90% of it I could not do for moral reasons. But that leaves 10 or 20 I could.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
keg411 wrote:This is more of a "long run" comment than a "get me a job ASAP" comment, but OP, you should see if your school will let you take an intro-theater class Spring semester. It's a good way to gain confidence and learn how to seem more outgoing and friendly. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you can't come across as friendly and excited.

As for your PI comment, a job is a job. Don't feel like you have to go into business just because you're conservative. Maybe it's not a fit for your personality.


That is certainly a possibility but I would rather quit the law and do something else then spend my time working for a cause I consider to be evil or immoral. I mean, it is certainly the case that one has to make sacrifices and do unpleasant things as part of a job. But that seems to me to be quite a different thing that working for an organization dedicated to something like say unionization that you would spend a life time opposing.I am not saying I could not do any PI work, but I am saying that something like 80% or 90% of it I could not do for moral reasons. But that leaves 10 or 20 I could.


So helping others is morally wrong to you? Being enthusiastic in an interview also goes against your better judgment? Makes me wonder what else you're doing/saying in interviews. It seems you have very strong and controversial opinions on political topics. Do you make this known in your interviews, or is it on your resume? I say this because I'm a libertarian myself and I don't consider doing pro bono work "evil", holy shit. if anything, I admit I'm the selfish prick.

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IAFG
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:03 pm

accept job at liberal PI org; DESTROY THEM FROM WITHIN

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
keg411 wrote:This is more of a "long run" comment than a "get me a job ASAP" comment, but OP, you should see if your school will let you take an intro-theater class Spring semester. It's a good way to gain confidence and learn how to seem more outgoing and friendly. Just because you're introverted doesn't mean you can't come across as friendly and excited.

As for your PI comment, a job is a job. Don't feel like you have to go into business just because you're conservative. Maybe it's not a fit for your personality.


That is certainly a possibility but I would rather quit the law and do something else then spend my time working for a cause I consider to be evil or immoral. I mean, it is certainly the case that one has to make sacrifices and do unpleasant things as part of a job. But that seems to me to be quite a different thing that working for an organization dedicated to something like say unionization that you would spend a life time opposing.I am not saying I could not do any PI work, but I am saying that something like 80% or 90% of it I could not do for moral reasons. But that leaves 10 or 20 I could.


So helping others is morally wrong to you? Being enthusiastic in an interview also goes against your better judgment? Makes me wonder what else you're doing/saying in interviews. It seems you have very strong and controversial opinions on political topics. Do you make this known in your interviews, or is it on your resume?


See, I really did not say either of those things, but I do understand what you mean. What I said was I was concerned about seeming fake in interviews, not about seeming enthusiastic. I never talk about politics in an interview. The only political thing that appears on my resume is a membership in the federalist society. I do have strong political views but they are generally expressed in bars. See, I did not say I thought helping others was morally wrong, I am not a follower of Mrs. Rand. What I said was that most PI groups do things I am opposed to, or that is my impression of them, I guess I could be wrong.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:06 pm

IAFG wrote:accept job at liberal PI org; DESTROY THEM FROM WITHIN


YESS!! DOOOO EEETT!! YEESSSS!!!
--ImageRemoved--

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:19 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
IAFG wrote:accept job at liberal PI org; DESTROY THEM FROM WITHIN


YESS!! DOOOO EEETT!! YEESSSS!!!
--ImageRemoved--


Back up plan established, ACLU here I come!

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
IAFG wrote:accept job at liberal PI org; DESTROY THEM FROM WITHIN


YESS!! DOOOO EEETT!! YEESSSS!!!


Back up plan established, ACLU here I come!

Make sure you leave the Federalist Society on your resume when you apply to the ACLU.




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