Dropping out?

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here, you got yourself a deal!


did you attempt to contact firms that went to OCI at your old school?

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:35 pm

OP here. My old school is located in a different geographic area to which I have to other ties. As far as the firms that went to my old school and are in my current area, I did contract them via mailing.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:05 pm

Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.

Therefore, OP, I feel you. While I may not have any suggestions surpassing the common TLS wisdom, I'd still say the following:

1) Don't take your interviewers' words personally. They are just human beings with their own shortcomings and prejudices. There are people in this world whose words deserve your serious attention and reflection, but your law firm interviewer is probably not one of them.

2) If you have the desire and the necessary language / cultural expertise, look overseas. As an international JD student, I've been exploring this a lot, and there are indeed very nice gigs around if you are a good fit (though I eventually got something in one of the major US markets). I know another transfer student (with relevant backgrounds, of course) who struck out at OCI but was able to secure something in Hong Kong. And hey - that firm pays US market.

3) Think about your career options in light of your expectations / long term goals / debt management. I won't go into this because there are many good threads on TLS already. All I want to say is that there is a whole spectrum of options between "not getting biglaw through OCI" and "dropping out and not becoming a lawyer". It is hard, but let's put things in perspective.

4) Head up, smile, be positive, and GOOD LUCK.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.

Therefore, OP, I feel you. While I may not have any suggestions surpassing the common TLS wisdom, I'd still say the following:

1) Don't take your interviewers' words personally. They are just human beings with their own shortcomings and prejudices. There are people in this world whose words deserve your serious attention and reflection, but your law firm interviewer is probably not one of them.

2) If you have the desire and the necessary language / cultural expertise, look overseas. As an international JD student, I've been exploring this a lot, and there are indeed very nice gigs around if you are a good fit (though I eventually got something in one of the major US markets). I know another transfer student (with relevant backgrounds, of course) who struck out at OCI but was able to secure something in Hong Kong. And hey - that firm pays US market.

3) Think about your career options in light of your expectations / long term goals / debt management. I won't go into this because there are many good threads on TLS already. All I want to say is that there is a whole spectrum of options between "not getting biglaw through OCI" and "dropping out and not becoming a lawyer". It is hard, but let's put things in perspective.

4) Head up, smile, be positive, and GOOD LUCK.


I'm not the OP, but I think this is a wonderful and insightful post.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby UnTouChablE » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:15 pm

Don't dropout. I wish you the best.

laborday
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby laborday » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
2) If you have the desire and the necessary language / cultural expertise, look overseas. As an international JD student, I've been exploring this a lot, and there are indeed very nice gigs around if you are a good fit (though I eventually got something in one of the major US markets). I know another transfer student (with relevant backgrounds, of course) who struck out at OCI but was able to secure something in Hong Kong. And hey - that firm pays US market.



OP: Are you an ESL student?

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:34 pm

laborday wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
2) If you have the desire and the necessary language / cultural expertise, look overseas. As an international JD student, I've been exploring this a lot, and there are indeed very nice gigs around if you are a good fit (though I eventually got something in one of the major US markets). I know another transfer student (with relevant backgrounds, of course) who struck out at OCI but was able to secure something in Hong Kong. And hey - that firm pays US market.



OP: Are you an ESL student?


No, alas English is my first and only language.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.

Therefore, OP, I feel you. While I may not have any suggestions surpassing the common TLS wisdom, I'd still say the following:

1) Don't take your interviewers' words personally. They are just human beings with their own shortcomings and prejudices. There are people in this world whose words deserve your serious attention and reflection, but your law firm interviewer is probably not one of them.

2) If you have the desire and the necessary language / cultural expertise, look overseas. As an international JD student, I've been exploring this a lot, and there are indeed very nice gigs around if you are a good fit (though I eventually got something in one of the major US markets). I know another transfer student (with relevant backgrounds, of course) who struck out at OCI but was able to secure something in Hong Kong. And hey - that firm pays US market.

3) Think about your career options in light of your expectations / long term goals / debt management. I won't go into this because there are many good threads on TLS already. All I want to say is that there is a whole spectrum of options between "not getting biglaw through OCI" and "dropping out and not becoming a lawyer". It is hard, but let's put things in perspective.

4) Head up, smile, be positive, and GOOD LUCK.


I'm not the OP, but I think this is a wonderful and insightful post.


OP here:

Your point about looking beyond biglaw is well taken, as far as it goes. The problem however, is that I will be loaned up to the point at graduation where I will really need to make biglawish money to pay down the debt in a reasonable (read not 25-year period) or work for the government or in public interest, and take advantage of a forgiveness program. I am extremely adverse to doing almost all PI and government work however, so I am sort of in a big law or bust type situation. I mean I guess working for the government as a lawyer would be better than working in the private sector as something else, but it is a fairly close question.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.


They openly mocked him for working at a firm's overseas office as a 1L? I was under the impression that getting a firm job 1L summer is impressive and uncommon. Was this "LOL, couldn't get a real 1L firm job" or was it more like, "Haha, he got a firm job instead of getting an awesome PI or judicial position"? I'm confused.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.


They openly mocked him for working at a firm's overseas office as a 1L? I was under the impression that getting a firm job 1L summer is impressive and uncommon. Was this "LOL, couldn't get a real 1L firm job" or was it more like, "Haha, he got a firm job instead of getting an awesome PI or judicial position"? I'm confused.

I had a V20 hiring partner mock my summer SA from last year. He asked me if I got to see any depositions, and when I answered no, he said that he would be disappointed if the SAs at his firm had the same answer.
Last edited by JazzOne on Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.


They openly mocked him for working at a firm's overseas office as a 1L? I was under the impression that getting a firm job 1L summer is impressive and uncommon. Was this "LOL, couldn't get a real 1L firm job" or was it more like, "Haha, he got a firm job instead of getting an awesome PI or judicial position"? I'm confused.

"Couldn't find a job in this hemisphere?"

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.

Therefore, OP, I feel you. While I may not have any suggestions surpassing the common TLS wisdom, I'd still say the following:

1) Don't take your interviewers' words personally. They are just human beings with their own shortcomings and prejudices. There are people in this world whose words deserve your serious attention and reflection, but your law firm interviewer is probably not one of them.

2) If you have the desire and the necessary language / cultural expertise, look overseas. As an international JD student, I've been exploring this a lot, and there are indeed very nice gigs around if you are a good fit (though I eventually got something in one of the major US markets). I know another transfer student (with relevant backgrounds, of course) who struck out at OCI but was able to secure something in Hong Kong. And hey - that firm pays US market.

3) Think about your career options in light of your expectations / long term goals / debt management. I won't go into this because there are many good threads on TLS already. All I want to say is that there is a whole spectrum of options between "not getting biglaw through OCI" and "dropping out and not becoming a lawyer". It is hard, but let's put things in perspective.

4) Head up, smile, be positive, and GOOD LUCK.


I'm not the OP, but I think this is a wonderful and insightful post.


OP here:

Your point about looking beyond biglaw is well taken, as far as it goes. The problem however, is that I will be loaned up to the point at graduation where I will really need to make biglawish money to pay down the debt in a reasonable (read not 25-year period) or work for the government or in public interest, and take advantage of a forgiveness program. I am extremely adverse to doing almost all PI and government work however, so I am sort of in a big law or bust type situation. I mean I guess working for the government as a lawyer would be better than working in the private sector as something else, but it is a fairly close question.


Why are you so adverse to PI or government?

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:04 pm

OP here:

I am very political and libertarian in outlook. So with the exception of a few PI orgs like institute for justice or certain government work in the criminal prosecution area most government work and PI work is morally objectionable to me.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:11 pm

The institute for justice has summer internship/clerkships. I think their deadline for applications if December 1.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:14 pm

--LinkRemoved--

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:http://www.aclu-wa.org/legal-internshipsexternships


OP here, thanks for the thought, but the ACLU is the type of public interest work I could never do.

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2807
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby 2807 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:http://www.aclu-wa.org/legal-internshipsexternships


OP here, thanks for the thought, but the ACLU is the type of public interest work I could never do.


....."For the record, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU, but the important question is, why aren't you, Bob? Now this is an organisation whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: why would a Senator, his Party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? Now if you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it myself until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".

Because Freedom can't defend itself, that's why.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:40 pm

2807 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:http://www.aclu-wa.org/legal-internshipsexternships


OP here, thanks for the thought, but the ACLU is the type of public interest work I could never do.


....."For the record, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU, but the important question is, why aren't you, Bob? Now this is an organisation whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: why would a Senator, his Party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? Now if you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it myself until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".


OP here:
LOL, that is an excellent quote from an excellent film written by one of the best contemporary writers of film and television. I agree with the sentiment too, but I have somewhat different feelings on the meaning of that fine document then writer of those fine words.

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2807
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby 2807 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
2807 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:http://www.aclu-wa.org/legal-internshipsexternships


OP here, thanks for the thought, but the ACLU is the type of public interest work I could never do.


....."For the record, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU, but the important question is, why aren't you, Bob? Now this is an organisation whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: why would a Senator, his Party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? Now if you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it myself until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".


OP here:
LOL, that is an excellent quote from an excellent film written by one of the best contemporary writers of film and television. I agree with the sentiment too, but I have somewhat different feelings on the meaning of that fine document then writer of those fine words.



Hey, nice answer. Very well played, and I respect that. Good job.
And really, good luck to you. You have an excellent education and a trade. You are new to the trade, so just find a niche to pay your dues and time will heal all your wounds. I am 39, starting over, and have paid a lot of dues.

Don't be one of those "I don't want to climb the mountain, I just want to stand on top." You have the ability to do both. One step at a time.

Now go forth, keep calm, and carry on.

moonie
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby moonie » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.

Therefore, OP, I feel you. While I may not have any suggestions surpassing the common TLS wisdom, I'd still say the following:

1) Don't take your interviewers' words personally. They are just human beings with their own shortcomings and prejudices. There are people in this world whose words deserve your serious attention and reflection, but your law firm interviewer is probably not one of them.

2) If you have the desire and the necessary language / cultural expertise, look overseas. As an international JD student, I've been exploring this a lot, and there are indeed very nice gigs around if you are a good fit (though I eventually got something in one of the major US markets). I know another transfer student (with relevant backgrounds, of course) who struck out at OCI but was able to secure something in Hong Kong. And hey - that firm pays US market.

3) Think about your career options in light of your expectations / long term goals / debt management. I won't go into this because there are many good threads on TLS already. All I want to say is that there is a whole spectrum of options between "not getting biglaw through OCI" and "dropping out and not becoming a lawyer". It is hard, but let's put things in perspective.

4) Head up, smile, be positive, and GOOD LUCK.


I'm not the OP, but I think this is a wonderful and insightful post.


OP here:

Your point about looking beyond biglaw is well taken, as far as it goes. The problem however, is that I will be loaned up to the point at graduation where I will really need to make biglawish money to pay down the debt in a reasonable (read not 25-year period) or work for the government or in public interest, and take advantage of a forgiveness program. I am extremely adverse to doing almost all PI and government work however, so I am sort of in a big law or bust type situation. I mean I guess working for the government as a lawyer would be better than working in the private sector as something else, but it is a fairly close question.



I'm the one who posted the long #2 post (and thanks to the dude who thinks it is wonderful and insightful :) ) :

OP: IMO, not getting Biglaw will not ruin your career in the long run - you'll still have your shiny T8 degree (and, anecdotally, transfers tend to do very well in their new schools). However, not getting Biglaw + having the mindset of Biglaw or Bust + not being open-minded to alternative career prospects is a sure way to get into trouble.

Think about the time when you decided to attend law school - considering that you are smart enough to do well enough to transfer to a top school, I don't think you are really so stupid that you NEVER considered ANY alternative career paths if you could not get Biglaw. You started in 2009, not 2007. I'm sure you are well-informed enough to at least realize that there is a very real possibility that you won't get Biglaw no matter what. So what was your backup then? There must be SOMETHING that you thought about and were willing to do, right?

I'm not saying that you absolutely should not drop out - after all, it is a very personal, case-by-case decision. I'm just saying that you should keep things in perspective, and ask yourself how did you plan to put your law degree into use when you first decided to pursue that degree. If you really come to the conclusion that there is absolute nothing else you want to do besides biglaw / midlaw, dropping out might become a wise move. However, from my personal experience with my friends / alumni, I think it is rarely the case.

The good thing about a top school is that it usually has better LRAP programs. Think about what you want to do, seek out for alternatives, and talk to the financial aid office to see how could you fair through that debt. Good luck.


PS: to the posters above - yes, my friend was mocked during his interviews for not being able to get a firm job in the glorious land of the United States as a 1L and having been placed into one of the sluggish offshore offices, though from what I gather, he has done some good work there. That's why I said OP shouldn't take these comments too seriously. Every interviewer has his / her preferences and idiosyncrasies. You wouldn't be doing anything else in life if you try to accommodate every single one of them.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:32 pm

I love your posting! It is refreshing and informative.

It is interesting how you underline "arrogant." The reality is finding a right balance between having humility but projecting confidence. Case in point: for one month, I slaved away for a law firm. For the first 3 weeks, I tried to maintain a humble profile; after all, I am a newbie and was there to learn and help. However, by maintaining a humble profile, people walked all over me. I became a welcoming door mat. That's the reality of life: when one is too humble, people (especially in the legal profession) try to take advantage of that person. The question: how not to be arrogant but not to become a door mat either?


lovelaw27 wrote:I have posted this before but I thought I would post it again:

"Realize That Law Firms Never Want to Hire "Losers"
The firm will decide whether or not it wants to hire you based on almost exclusively on how well you do during your interviews. However, legal hiring organizations, especially law firms, never want to hire "losers." Your job during any law interview is to convince the legal hiring organization that you are not a "loser."

You can categorize interviewees in many ways. The following list of three basic types of candidates tends to match the three main types of lawyers. Those interviewing you will try to figure out which lawyer profile fits you. Law firms characterize lawyers as "Losers, Cruisers and Grinders." Cruisers and grinders will get hired, while losers will be quickly forgotten.

The Loser Candidate
First, a law firm wants to make sure you're not a loser. Law firms believe that a loser is a candidate who acts inappropriately during the interview or doesn't appear to be truly interested in the job. Losers are also those who will be difficult to manage if hired and indicate to their interviewers that they have had significant problems with their supervisors in their current or past positions. Law firms also believe losers are those who do not have a strong interest in practicing law or are arrogant.

Firms are always reluctant to hire interviewees who indicate that they do not like to work hard. You may also appear to be a loser to a firm if you fail to look directly at each of your interviewers during different points of the interview. All of the traits just described tend to fit losers; these attorneys rarely ever get hired. They generally make very poor lawyers and fail to thrive in a law firm environment.

The Cruiser Candidate
Cruisers represent about 30 to 40 percent of the people interviewed by law firms. A cruiser is the type of candidate who tends to do his work in a fairly competent manner. However, he never demonstrates a high level of enthusiasm for the practice of law. Furthermore, he never does anything to indicate that he is a truly outstanding lawyer who would like to make partner. At least he does not demonstrate a "fierce" drive to become a partner. Cruisers comprise the majority of people working in large law firms. They have truly exceptional backgrounds, good skills for developing clients and are capable of doing good work. They may even make partner one day. However, though cruisers do get hired, they are generally not the most desirable candidates.

The Grinder Candidate
Grinders, on the other hand, are sought out. A grinder is a person who demonstrates a single-minded obsession with being the best performer possible. They tend to bill the most hours, they try very hard to fit in well with everyone socially and they do very excellent work. While grinders desperately want to become partners, they manage to demonstrate their ambitious nature in appropriate ways. They also actively seek out clients. Oddly enough, some grinders fail to attract many new clients because they are so obsessed with the practice of law. In addition, these types of candidates may sometimes demonstrate certain weaknesses. However, they are usually able to be "malleable," which helps them overcome their weaknesses. These types of candidates typically get the most offers.

Though there are some exceptions to the categorizations listed above, you can be sure that losers never get hired and grinders land all of the most desirable positions. "

http://www.infirmation.com/articles/one ... le_id=2466

The only thing I would say is think about whether or not in your past interviews you demonstrated any of the characteristics of the loser candidate.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:08 am

moonie wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure whether I know you, OP (since you refer your new school as "Top 8" so that might be selling you out a bit), but I do have a friend who transferred to my MVP and stuck out at OCI. Likewise, he got 1 callback from OCI, another 1 or 2 through mass-mailing, which all resulted in rejections. Not sure whether he got the "terrible interviewer" comment, but there were indeed interviewers who opened mocked his 1L summer employer in seriously degrading remarks (it was a firm's overseas office). Though, TBF, he is a genuinely nice and personable guy - and come on, it is not his fault to work for that firm as an uninformed 1L.

Therefore, OP, I feel you. While I may not have any suggestions surpassing the common TLS wisdom, I'd still say the following:

1) Don't take your interviewers' words personally. They are just human beings with their own shortcomings and prejudices. There are people in this world whose words deserve your serious attention and reflection, but your law firm interviewer is probably not one of them.

2) If you have the desire and the necessary language / cultural expertise, look overseas. As an international JD student, I've been exploring this a lot, and there are indeed very nice gigs around if you are a good fit (though I eventually got something in one of the major US markets). I know another transfer student (with relevant backgrounds, of course) who struck out at OCI but was able to secure something in Hong Kong. And hey - that firm pays US market.

3) Think about your career options in light of your expectations / long term goals / debt management. I won't go into this because there are many good threads on TLS already. All I want to say is that there is a whole spectrum of options between "not getting biglaw through OCI" and "dropping out and not becoming a lawyer". It is hard, but let's put things in perspective.

4) Head up, smile, be positive, and GOOD LUCK.


I'm not the OP, but I think this is a wonderful and insightful post.


OP here:

Your point about looking beyond biglaw is well taken, as far as it goes. The problem however, is that I will be loaned up to the point at graduation where I will really need to make biglawish money to pay down the debt in a reasonable (read not 25-year period) or work for the government or in public interest, and take advantage of a forgiveness program. I am extremely adverse to doing almost all PI and government work however, so I am sort of in a big law or bust type situation. I mean I guess working for the government as a lawyer would be better than working in the private sector as something else, but it is a fairly close question.



I'm the one who posted the long #2 post (and thanks to the dude who thinks it is wonderful and insightful :) ) :

OP: IMO, not getting Biglaw will not ruin your career in the long run - you'll still have your shiny T8 degree (and, anecdotally, transfers tend to do very well in their new schools). However, not getting Biglaw + having the mindset of Biglaw or Bust + not being open-minded to alternative career prospects is a sure way to get into trouble.

Think about the time when you decided to attend law school - considering that you are smart enough to do well enough to transfer to a top school, I don't think you are really so stupid that you NEVER considered ANY alternative career paths if you could not get Biglaw. You started in 2009, not 2007. I'm sure you are well-informed enough to at least realize that there is a very real possibility that you won't get Biglaw no matter what. So what was your backup then? There must be SOMETHING that you thought about and were willing to do, right?

I'm not saying that you absolutely should not drop out - after all, it is a very personal, case-by-case decision. I'm just saying that you should keep things in perspective, and ask yourself how did you plan to put your law degree into use when you first decided to pursue that degree. If you really come to the conclusion that there is absolute nothing else you want to do besides biglaw / midlaw, dropping out might become a wise move. However, from my personal experience with my friends / alumni, I think it is rarely the case.

The good thing about a top school is that it usually has better LRAP programs. Think about what you want to do, seek out for alternatives, and talk to the financial aid office to see how could you fair through that debt. Good luck.


PS: to the posters above - yes, my friend was mocked during his interviews for not being able to get a firm job in the glorious land of the United States as a 1L and having been placed into one of the sluggish offshore offices, though from what I gather, he has done some good work there. That's why I said OP shouldn't take these comments too seriously. Every interviewer has his / her preferences and idiosyncrasies. You wouldn't be doing anything else in life if you try to accommodate every single one of them.


I certainly did have a back up plan when I applied and matriculated. However, if I had not transfered I would be graduating with a debt load of 90 or so, but thanks to the transfer I am now going to have a 170 or 180 (gave up a decent scholarship). Thus options that would have been unpleasant but entirely doable, like 60 or 70 K a year in small law, are not really options any more.

The other thing I might like to do, become a prosecutor, is still an option I guess. But this semester I took the most big lawish, or at least least criminal law like, course load. So I am not sure how I can make the transition to being acceptable to DA's offices/DOJ, since they tend to care more about commitment then grades.

run26.2
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby run26.2 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:26 am

OP,
If I were in your shoes, I would not exert too much mental energy thinking about this now. 2L is a tough year and finals are almost here. Worry is not your friend right now. Let your future take care of itself for the time being.

There are going to be more hiring opportunities in the spring. The days will get longer and life will generally look brighter.

Give it one more semester. If nothing works out between now and May, you can take the summer to think about your decision. Better to make it then when you can reflect a bit more than now when other pressures might also be influencing your thinking.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:58 am

Also struck out and seriously considering dropping out. It is just crazy how different my life's outlook is from a year ago, or even just a couple of months ago. A year ago, I was getting ready for 1L finals, and feeling on top of the world. Got my grades back in January, and they were pretty much right at the median, so I was feeling pretty good, and like I'd proved that I can hold my own at a top 10 school. Grades were similar second semester, and I was a little bit below median, so I was nervous but hopeful heading into OCI.


Fast forward to now. I struck out, and it's like all of a sudden I"ve gone from high hopes to realizing that I just spent a collossal amount of money for absolutely no gain. I'm even super lucky because I'm only on the hook for one year of law school, my parents were generous enough to pay for the other two. Still, I'm going to graduate with about $80-$90k of debt and zero hope whatsoever of landing a decent job. Earning $40-50,000 straight out of college would have felt fine, as I would have had no debt. Instead, I'm going to be in the wonderful position of having paid about $80k for the privilege of wasting 3 years of my life. When you tack on the $120,000 or so I could have made in these 3 years working, and I'm out about $200,000 and in no better shape than I was. Fucking sucks.

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:Also struck out and seriously considering dropping out. It is just crazy how different my life's outlook is from a year ago, or even just a couple of months ago. A year ago, I was getting ready for 1L finals, and feeling on top of the world. Got my grades back in January, and they were pretty much right at the median, so I was feeling pretty good, and like I'd proved that I can hold my own at a top 10 school. Grades were similar second semester, and I was a little bit below median, so I was nervous but hopeful heading into OCI.


Fast forward to now. I struck out, and it's like all of a sudden I"ve gone from high hopes to realizing that I just spent a collossal amount of money for absolutely no gain. I'm even super lucky because I'm only on the hook for one year of law school, my parents were generous enough to pay for the other two. Still, I'm going to graduate with about $80-$90k of debt and zero hope whatsoever of landing a decent job. Earning $40-50,000 straight out of college would have felt fine, as I would have had no debt. Instead, I'm going to be in the wonderful position of having paid about $80k for the privilege of wasting 3 years of my life. When you tack on the $120,000 or so I could have made in these 3 years working, and I'm out about $200,000 and in no better shape than I was. Fucking sucks.

Hang in there. You're only weighing one side of the equation. I was in your shoes a month ago, and a couple opportunities broke late for me. I'm not going to get all Pollyanna on you like a wealthy anonymous poster, but a JD from a T10 is nothing to scoff at. It's just that you're in an environment where everyone goes to a T10, so your perspective is skewed.

This thread is killing me. I am not too far removed from the depression others are describing. We all knew this would be tough. Well, here's the tough part. How you respond to this adversity will speak volumes about your character and your career. Good luck.




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