Dropping out?

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Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:10 pm

I tend to agree, and have thought since the beginning of this that there must be something more going on then just weak interviewing. I knew I was going to be far from the best interview going into this, but I have yet to find serious flaw, and I know firms have criticized my interviewing style. I think I might have had poor posture in earlier interviews, but beyond that I really could not say what it is. But as far as grades being the be all end all, that is certainly not true. I a few other transfers from my school, all of whom had worse grades than I did and all of them have jobs.

I do everything humanly possible to disguise my crushing failure in interviews and always try to stay positive.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm in a similar position to OP and was wondering if anyone has suggestions for what to do as far as job searching at this point. Big and mid-sized firms are done hiring by now, and every smaller (20-50 attorney) firm that I've reached out to has said they're not hiring for the summer. At this point what do you do?

You blanket like mad, on the hope that some firm will end up deciding it needs more hires than it's already taken (some firms do this in the spring especially, and may do so if the economy continues to improve) and will interview you for any additional seats they decide to create, on the hope that your top law school and grades will help you at least get to the interview and make a case for yourself.

Last spring I saw a few firms suddenly announce new 1L and even 2L positions in March as they started to think they'd shrank their goals too far and underhired.

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As a very introverted person who has wondered if my interviewing is the problem myself, I'll ask, is it better to risk coming across as fake or risk coming across as disinterested?

It's better to risk looking fake than disinterested. I personally perceive all outgoing people to be fake, but that's just my perception. Society at large views things differently. Friendliness and inquisitiveness are viewed positively, even when it appears "fake" to us introverts.

Anonymous User wrote:Wrong. Firms will make most of their hiring decisions based on grades. Plenty of disinterested, unsure top 10%ers get multiple offers at my T10. People with very good personalities (i.e. not 90% of law students) did outperform their grades. But it's really hard to fake a certain personality or attitude when that's not who you are 99% of the time.

I disagree with this. I think grades get you the interview, but I also think that the interview plays an important role in the process. I got a boatload of screening interviews, but I underperformed my grades in terms of callbacks, and I'm sure the culprit was my interviewing ability. I also knew a lot of friendly people (not on law review) who really cleaned up. Forcing myself to be more outgoing has been a very positive change in my life.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:30 pm

You blanket like mad, on the hope that some firm will end up deciding it needs more hires than it's already taken (some firms do this in the spring especially, and may do so if the economy continues to improve) and will interview you for any additional seats they decide to create, on the hope that your top law school and grades will help you at least get to the interview and make a case for yourself.

Last spring I saw a few firms suddenly announce new 1L and even 2L positions in March as they started to think they'd shrank their goals too far and underhired.


Are there any types of firms for which this strategy would be most effective? V100, mid-law, etc? Any markets- probably best to focus on NYC right?

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:39 pm

JazzOne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:As a very introverted person who has wondered if my interviewing is the problem myself, I'll ask, is it better to risk coming across as fake or risk coming across as disinterested?

It's better to risk looking fake than disinterested. I personally perceive all outgoing people to be fake, but that's just my perception. Society at large views things differently. Friendliness and inquisitiveness are viewed positively, even when it appears "fake" to us introverts.

Anonymous User wrote:Wrong. Firms will make most of their hiring decisions based on grades. Plenty of disinterested, unsure top 10%ers get multiple offers at my T10. People with very good personalities (i.e. not 90% of law students) did outperform their grades. But it's really hard to fake a certain personality or attitude when that's not who you are 99% of the time.

I disagree with this. I think grades get you the interview, but I also think that the interview plays an important role in the process. I got a boatload of screening interviews, but I underperformed my grades in terms of callbacks, and I'm sure the culprit was my interviewing ability. I also knew a lot of friendly people (not on law review) who really cleaned up. Forcing myself to be more outgoing has been a very positive change in my life.


With callbacks, I agree (although some elite firms seem to auto-offer people with high grades too). But when comparing my performance with my good grades friends, most of them did the same thing I did, give the resume spiel, saying leaning towards X practice area but not sure yet, 2 or 3 questions on the summer program like how work is distributed, kinds of assignments, and then some BSing about sports. Still got the cbs.

More generally, on callbacks, I also noticed a marked difference based on the personality of the interviewer. One guy was super-introverted, and despite having a ton in common, knew my boss from the summer, same law school, bunch of interests in common, worked in my target practice area, the conversation was really dry and stilted. The next interviewer was clearly an extrovert. Despite having nothing in common, the conversation had no dry spells, he asked a lot of questions, seemed interested in following up on things I said, and answered my question with more than a one-sentence answer.

I also learned to avoid leading questions or yes or no questions. A lot of the interviewers won't give more than a short one-sentence or two answer unless you frame the question a certain way and it can be very frustrating.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
You blanket like mad, on the hope that some firm will end up deciding it needs more hires than it's already taken (some firms do this in the spring especially, and may do so if the economy continues to improve) and will interview you for any additional seats they decide to create, on the hope that your top law school and grades will help you at least get to the interview and make a case for yourself.

Last spring I saw a few firms suddenly announce new 1L and even 2L positions in March as they started to think they'd shrank their goals too far and underhired.

Are there any types of firms for which this strategy would be most effective? V100, mid-law, etc? Any markets- probably best to focus on NYC right?

NYC is probably most likely to ramp up broadly, since they tend to be most influenced by the market directly (a surging economy/stock market often leads to more mergers, which means more M&A work, etc.) so yeah, hit them hard. But the idea here is to hit everything. Focus on NYC most, but when you've exhausted those, hit Chicago and Dallas and Houston and Atlanta. Just blanket everywhere. Keep blanketing until you run out of firms to blanket.

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:41 pm

double post

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Kohinoor
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:top 8
:\

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:24 pm

While you might question your interview style, have you ever thought about maybe it is the fact that you do not fit in w/the firm culture.

In my previous life as an educator, I interviewed w/a group that helps run-away youth. We are not even talking about low-income. We are talking about kids who have a violent tendency, have been severely abused, and who are extremely emotionally traumatized. I come from a humble middle class family and never knew what hunger meant. Needless to say, I did not pass the interview.

On the other hand, when I interviewed w/another education group that helps middle class/upper middle class children, I was offered a job on the spot.

Keep interviewing. You will find the right firm.

LurkerNoMore
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby LurkerNoMore » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:28 pm

OP:

Have you been working alumni connections? This might be the best way to get at the heart of your interviewing problems. I would go to your OCS and ask if they have a list of alumni who have been willing to discuss hiring issues with students in the past (ones that have volunteer to do mock interviews, give presentations, etc.). Your UG might be a good source too -- look for alumni that went on to become attorneys. Find a couple that look like they are dedicated to helping students. Write them and explain the situation: you are law student who has run into difficulty in executing on interviews. Your career services hasn't been able to identify the issue, but you have gotten feedback from firms that you have interviewed with that your interview style has been an issue. Ask if they would be willing conduct an informational interview with you and give you candid feedback that you could use going forward.

With a different set of alumni, especially those at smaller firms that might not have more formal summer programs, send targeted cover letters and your resume. Worst case, your resume gets thrown in the trash. Best case, it gets put on the right person's desk.

With yet a different set, try to set up more traditional informational interviews -- use them as opportunities to find out more information about particular aspects of firm life, practice areas you are interested, etc. Seek to establish a relationship. This probably won't help this year (though it might if it allows you to speak more confidently in interviews), but if you make a connection, you can use it next fall to "move up" if you need to.

Consider trying to get an internship with an Article III judge over the summer. Internships can provide very solid experience (depending on the chambers) and if you hit it off with the clerks, they might be able to offer you some valuable contacts to work with for your 3L job search (or tips for clerkship applications).

Keep your grades up. If you do, you might be able find a clerkship next year, which will reset your job search timeline.

Along those lines, let every professor you know know about your situation. Ask for help. Profs often have connections, and if they know you and know that your interviewing skills don't represent your general people skills, they might be willing to help you. Additionally, you want to cultivate relationships with professor for the clerkship run (and be willing to jump on any off plan hiring -- for you, a bird in the hand will be much more important than holding out for your "ideal" clerkship).

Good luck.

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:32 pm

LurkerNoMore wrote:OP:

Have you been working alumni connections? This might be the best way to get at the heart of your interviewing problems. I would go to your OCS and ask if they have a list of alumni who have been willing to discuss hiring issues with students in the past (ones that have volunteer to do mock interviews, give presentations, etc.). Your UG might be a good source too -- look for alumni that went on to become attorneys. Find a couple that look like they are dedicated to helping students. Write them and explain the situation: you are law student who has run into difficulty in executing on interviews. Your career services hasn't been able to identify the issue, but you have gotten feedback from firms that you have interviewed with that your interview style has been an issue. Ask if they would be willing conduct an informational interview with you and give you candid feedback that you could use going forward.

With a different set of alumni, especially those at smaller firms that might not have more formal summer programs, send targeted cover letters and your resume. Worst case, your resume gets thrown in the trash. Best case, it gets put on the right person's desk.

With yet a different set, try to set up more traditional informational interviews -- use them as opportunities to find out more information about particular aspects of firm life, practice areas you are interested, etc. Seek to establish a relationship. This probably won't help this year (though it might if it allows you to speak more confidently in interviews), but if you make a connection, you can use it next fall to "move up" if you need to.

Consider trying to get an internship with an Article III judge over the summer. Internships can provide very solid experience (depending on the chambers) and if you hit it off with the clerks, they might be able to offer you some valuable contacts to work with for your 3L job search (or tips for clerkship applications).

Keep your grades up. If you do, you might be able find a clerkship next year, which will reset your job search timeline.

Along those lines, let every professor you know know about your situation. Ask for help. Profs often have connections, and if they know you and know that your interviewing skills don't represent your general people skills, they might be willing to help you. Additionally, you want to cultivate relationships with professor for the clerkship run (and be willing to jump on any off plan hiring -- for you, a bird in the hand will be much more important than holding out for your "ideal" clerkship).

Good luck.

+1

I'll second the advice to keep your grades up and don't give up on a clerkship. I'll let others weigh in on this since I am only a 2L, but it is my understanding that there is a separate round of hiring that firms engage in from the federal clerk ranks. If you miss biglaw the first time around but manage to snag a clerkship, you could get a second bite at the apple. If I'm wrong about this, someone please correct me.

warumnicht
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby warumnicht » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:While you might question your interview style, have you ever thought about maybe it is the fact that you do not fit in w/the firm culture.


This is so true.

My career counselor and all my friends were shocked to find out that I did not do well in my firm interviews, because, according to them, I'm open, friendly, and easy to talk to. They simply could not imagine me having a bad interview -- which I did, because the biglaw firms I was interviewing with were not the right fit.

I recently interviewed for a couple of government positions. Night and day! I have yet to hear back (so in theory, it could be that my interviewing is bad), but the atmosphere was completely different, it felt like a much better fit, and I could just tell that things were going much more smoothly than in my biglaw interviews. The people on the other side of the table were different, and that made all the difference in the world.

I should also note that I interviewed with one small firm, and the interview was stellar compared to the biglaw ones.

Nothing changed in my interviewing style aside from the substance of the questions (tailored to the positions, of course). My demeanor and attitude remained the same, and that seemed to work well for government/small firm and not well at all for biglaw.

All that to reinforce the idea that it may not be the interviewing style but rather the overall fit.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:00 pm

OP,

I feel you and am in the same position. T2->T14 transfer, top 3% of my class at my T2, etc. We'll get there eventually... I hope.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm in a similar position to OP and was wondering if anyone has suggestions for what to do as far as job searching at this point. Big and mid-sized firms are done hiring by now, and every smaller (20-50 attorney) firm that I've reached out to has said they're not hiring for the summer. At this point what do you do?


Ditto.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So here is my situation, I am a transfer to top 8 school from a tier 1 school where I was in the top 5%. My job hunt has been a disaster. I have been on around 40 screening interviews only one of which has produced a call back. I did a mailing which got me a few call backs, but all of them have ended in rejections. I have been told that I am an awful interviewee. I am one of the two or three transfers who is still unemployed. I really love law school, enjoyed my first year a lot but now I am almost suicidally depressed. The terror of unemployment and the shame I feel every time I talk to one of my cohort about summer work, or hear them talk about it, is soul crushing.

My only serious career ambition has been to be a lawyer in the private sector. I honestly do not know what I would do if I dropped out, as I have a large amount of student debt, but at the same time I do not want to throw good money after bad.

I know a lot of people are going through rough times job search wise, and I do not mean to come across as whiny, but I am really starting to think that I have like an unemployable personality or something. Should I throw in the towel?


im also a transfer. I transfered to wustl/uiuc/gw from T50 top 10% and LR. Got shutout of everything below vandy. I got a job through my oci program back at my old school. I got the OCI results before getting into my current school.

Honestly, if i could trade places with you, I would. I would rather have your degree from a top 8 school than my degree and biglaw/midlaw job. Your degree stays without forever, while your job might not.

you aren't in that tough of a spot. You will get something. Looking back, my torts exam first semester killed all hopes of getting vandy or better. Sometimes it comes down to 1 or 2 grades. That is what separated me attending UIUC/wustl/GW and GULC/vandy/ucla......

Aqualibrium
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:

Honestly, if i could trade places with you, I would. I would rather have your degree [and no damn job] from a top 8 school than my degree and biglaw/midlaw job.


And the award for dumbest fucking thing I've ever read goes to...

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:30 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

Honestly, if i could trade places with you, I would. I would rather have your degree [and no damn job] from a top 8 school than my degree and biglaw/midlaw job.


And the award for dumbest fucking thing I've ever read goes to...



i have no fucking debt. Parents paying. So I would be ok with clerking then looking for a job.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:41 pm

i have no fucking debt. Parents paying. So I would be ok with clerking then looking for a job.[/quote]

What makes you think that getting a clerkship is so easy?

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i have no fucking debt. Parents paying. So I would be ok with clerking then looking for a job.


What makes you think that getting a clerkship is so easy?

TBF, I'd be a lot less concerned about a job if I was disgustingly wealthy too.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:07 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

Honestly, if i could trade places with you, I would. I would rather have your degree [and no damn job] from a top 8 school than my degree and biglaw/midlaw job.


And the award for dumbest fucking thing I've ever read goes to...

Aqualibrium
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

Honestly, if i could trade places with you, I would. I would rather have your degree [and no damn job] from a top 8 school than my degree and biglaw/midlaw job.


And the award for dumbest fucking thing I've ever read goes to...



i have no fucking debt. Parents paying. So I would be ok with clerking then looking for a job.



What's the difference though? The main reason people run around here talking about which t13 :roll: pwns the other is because they want to get a job, pay their loans, then escape to a well paying, lower stress job.

You've got a job and no loans. You've already achieved the end. Why would you switch places with someone with no job? How does that even make any sense?

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Big Shrimpin » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So here is my situation, I am a transfer to top 8 school from a tier 1 school where I was in the top 5%. My job hunt has been a disaster. I have been on around 40 screening interviews only one of which has produced a call back. I did a mailing which got me a few call backs, but all of them have ended in rejections. I have been told that I am an awful interviewee. I am one of the two or three transfers who is still unemployed. I really love law school, enjoyed my first year a lot but now I am almost suicidally depressed. The terror of unemployment and the shame I feel every time I talk to one of my cohort about summer work, or hear them talk about it, is soul crushing.

My only serious career ambition has been to be a lawyer in the private sector. I honestly do not know what I would do if I dropped out, as I have a large amount of student debt, but at the same time I do not want to throw good money after bad.

I know a lot of people are going through rough times job search wise, and I do not mean to come across as whiny, but I am really starting to think that I have like an unemployable personality or something. Should I throw in the towel?


im also a transfer. I transfered to wustl/uiuc/gw from T50 top 10% and LR. Got shutout of everything below vandy. I got a job through my oci program back at my old school. I got the OCI results before getting into my current school.

Honestly, if i could trade places with you, I would. I would rather have your degree from a top 8 school than my degree and biglaw/midlaw job. Your degree stays without forever, while your job might not.

you aren't in that tough of a spot. You will get something. Looking back, my torts exam first semester killed all hopes of getting vandy or better. Sometimes it comes down to 1 or 2 grades. That is what separated me attending UIUC/wustl/GW and GULC/vandy/ucla......


MOAR prestige!

1. go to top 8 school
2. ????
3. profit

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:13 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

Honestly, if i could trade places with you, I would. I would rather have your degree [and no damn job] from a top 8 school than my degree and biglaw/midlaw job.


And the award for dumbest fucking thing I've ever read goes to...



i have no fucking debt. Parents paying. So I would be ok with clerking then looking for a job.



What's the difference though? The main reason people run around here talking about which t13 :roll: pwns the other is because they want to get a job, pay their loans, then escape to a well paying, lower stress job.

You've got a job and no loans. You've already achieved the end. Why would you switch places with someone with no job? How does that even make any sense?


personal satisfaction. Clients still love top schools. People still look at your LS after your first job. Prob not a deciding factor, but it is still a small factor. If i ever want to do something other than law, having a top LS will help me reach that goal.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
personal satisfaction. Clients still love top schools. People still look at your LS after your first job. Prob not a deciding factor, but it is still a small factor. If i ever want to do something other than law, having a top LS will help me reach that goal.



Whatever floats your boat man. I'm sure op would love to trade places with you as well.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:18 pm

OP here, you got yourself a deal!




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