Dropping out?

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Anonymous User
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Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:06 pm

So here is my situation, I am a transfer to top 8 school from a tier 1 school where I was in the top 5%. My job hunt has been a disaster. I have been on around 40 screening interviews only one of which has produced a call back. I did a mailing which got me a few call backs, but all of them have ended in rejections. I have been told that I am an awful interviewee. I am one of the two or three transfers who is still unemployed. I really love law school, enjoyed my first year a lot but now I am almost suicidally depressed. The terror of unemployment and the shame I feel every time I talk to one of my cohort about summer work, or hear them talk about it, is soul crushing.

My only serious career ambition has been to be a lawyer in the private sector. I honestly do not know what I would do if I dropped out, as I have a large amount of student debt, but at the same time I do not want to throw good money after bad.

I know a lot of people are going through rough times job search wise, and I do not mean to come across as whiny, but I am really starting to think that I have like an unemployable personality or something. Should I throw in the towel?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So here is my situation, I am a transfer to top 8 school from a tier 1 school where I was in the top 5%. My job hunt has been a disaster. I have been on around 40 screening interviews only one of which has produced a call back. I did a mailing which got me a few call backs, but all of them have ended in rejections. I have been told that I am an awful interviewee. I am one of the two or three transfers who is still unemployed. I really love law school, enjoyed my first year a lot but now I am almost suicidally depressed. The terror of unemployment and the shame I feel every time I talk to one of my cohort about summer work, or hear them talk about it, is soul crushing.

My only serious career ambition has been to be a lawyer in the private sector. I honestly do not know what I would do if I dropped out, as I have a large amount of student debt, but at the same time I do not want to throw good money after bad.

I know a lot of people are going through rough times job search wise, and I do not mean to come across as whiny, but I am really starting to think that I have like an unemployable personality or something. Should I throw in the towel?


1. Walk quickly to career services
2. Request to speak with a career counselor
3. Wait for said career counselor to finish playing pong on the computer
4. Perform a practice interview with that career counselor
5. Listen to what the career counselor says about the interview and about what you may have done wrong during the interview
6. ?????
7. Either:
(a) Profit! or
(b) Enjoy DLA Piper!


USE YOU CAREER SERVICES!

09042014
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:12 pm

How much debt will you have after this semester?

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:15 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So here is my situation, I am a transfer to top 8 school from a tier 1 school where I was in the top 5%. My job hunt has been a disaster. I have been on around 40 screening interviews only one of which has produced a call back. I did a mailing which got me a few call backs, but all of them have ended in rejections. I have been told that I am an awful interviewee. I am one of the two or three transfers who is still unemployed. I really love law school, enjoyed my first year a lot but now I am almost suicidally depressed. The terror of unemployment and the shame I feel every time I talk to one of my cohort about summer work, or hear them talk about it, is soul crushing.

My only serious career ambition has been to be a lawyer in the private sector. I honestly do not know what I would do if I dropped out, as I have a large amount of student debt, but at the same time I do not want to throw good money after bad.

I know a lot of people are going through rough times job search wise, and I do not mean to come across as whiny, but I am really starting to think that I have like an unemployable personality or something. Should I throw in the towel?


1. Walk quickly to career services
2. Request to speak with a career counselor
3. Wait for said career counselor to finish playing pong on the computer
4. Perform a practice interview with that career counselor
5. Listen to what the career counselor says about the interview and about what you may have done wrong during the interview
6. ?????
7. Either:
(a) Profit! or
(b) Enjoy DLA Piper!


USE YOU CAREER SERVICES!



I have made rather extensive use of career services. They have told my my interviewing is fine. When I talk to firms, they tell me my interviewing is awful. Also, DLA piper did not even give me a screener. To the other questioner, about 70, about 170 if I stay on and graduate.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:24 pm

I'm in the same position. Except I had 6+ call backs, and I've still been sending out mass mailers. I've also felt the same feelings that you are feeling. It sucks talking to those who have jobs, and you feel like you are the only looser. But don't worry, you are NOT the only one in that situation, and you can't blame it on yourself. 3 years ago you would have been a shoe-in if you were a T8 transfer. This one of the worst legal markets that this country has experienced.

And you can definitely find a job with a manageable salary. Most medium to small sized firms do not have 2L summer classes, which means that they don't interview until 3L year or when you pass the bar. These firms will often pay close to 6 figures. If they don't, you can take advantage of the IBR provided by the federal govt. This means that if you are only making 60,000 a year, you won't have to pay the crushing 2k per month in student loans. It will be adjusted down to a manageable rate. You might not work with fortune 500 companies at a medium size firm, but I guarantee that you will enjoy the work. The clients are still interesting, and you will definitely get more responsibility. Also, you can easily break into 200-400k as a partner at these medium to small sized firms.

Keep your chin up and enjoy law school. Since big firm hiring is over, and small to medium firm hiring won't happen until after winter break (for those that do hire 2Ls), relax and focus on finals. That's what I've been trying to do. Good luck!

Black-Blue
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Black-Blue » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:25 pm

Have you thought about which particular aspect of interviewing you have trouble with? (posture, appearance, style of speaking, content, etc.)

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patrickd139
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:26 pm

OP: It's not over just because you struck out at OCI. You're at a good school, which puts you in solid shape over most of the rest of us. That said, you may not land a V5 offer. People measure success in all kinds of ways, and I'm not judging anyone for that. If that's how you personally measure success, then it's probably not wise to keep taking out student loans.

OTOH, if you want to be a private practice attorney, the game is far from over and you're being a little melodramatic. Practice interviewing with your CSO, undergraduate campus CSO, friends/mom/whoever, wipe the slate clean, and start putting yourself out there again. You're not going to be unemployed. You may have to start at a non-V100 firm, build up your practice and lateral into biglaw, or whatever alternate path can take you to your final aspiration. Point is, you're in good shape. Use what you've got.

Good luck!

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northwood
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby northwood » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:33 pm

OP:

Have you talked to the interviewers and asked for feedback, other than why did you pass? Dont give up yet. Talk to professors and people who have jobs. Ask them how they responded to some questions. There is no shame in seeking out advice. There are a lot of resources out there, now is the time to utilize them!

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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:36 pm

OP here. Thanks for the advice. Honestly, I think unless I can correct the interviewing issue small firms are not going to be very interested in me, because as I understand it they tend to care more about personality.

My main interviewing problem, as I see it, is that I am very low key and fairly introverted. Which I think leads my interviewers to think I am not interested in their Firm. The feedback I got from my interviews was that I come across as disinterested in the firm and that I fail to connect with my interviewers.

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rayiner
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby rayiner » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 pm

If you're a terrible interviewer, you need to get that fixed *fast*. Your grades (if you keep them up) will get you interview opportunities, but as long as people don't like you each one will be wasted.

My main interviewing problem, as I see it, is that I am very low key and fairly introverted. Which I think leads my interviewers to think I am not interested in their Firm. The feedback I got from my interviews was that I come across as disinterested in the firm and that I fail to connect with my interviewers.


Fake enthusiasm. Try not to seem desperate.

Find 3 things about each firm, and if you can find out the interviewer ahead of time, find out 2 things about his background. Common topics for firms are: practice areas, recent news stories, people you know who worked there, etc. For people: where they're from, their undergrad sports team, their practice area. Try to make a personal connection between your background/interests and each one of those things. This step is crucial.

Do not be introverted. Interviewing is like asking someone out on a date. The interviewer will respond to confidence and can smell uncertainty and desperation. Everyone can fake being confident for 20 minutes. Practice in front of your peers, preferably people who are themselves extroverts. Try to project that you know what you're doing and can be an asset to any firm.
Last edited by rayiner on Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 pm

What, specifically, is wrong with your interviewing?

Aqualibrium
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 pm

Random Anon Guy wrote:You can't blame it on yourself.


OP wrote:When I talk to firms, they tell me my interviewing is awful.


Anyway, OP, 70k vs 170k is a huge difference for sure. I don't know if dropping out is the answer though. You'll still be graduating with a t8 degree, and that makes it a bit easier for you to get a clerkship or some sort of legal job after graduation.

What specifically is it with your interviewing that firms don't like? Why do you think career services didn't pick up on it during mock interviews? You gotta fix that before you can get a job almost anywhere...

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:39 pm

I really feel for you OP. I didn't get any job offers until very late in the hiring season. I felt depression and shame. I felt like I had dragged my family through a huge ordeal just so I could fail. I felt like a failure. It's amazing how this environment can tear you down. You need to get rid of this stench of desperation. That's step number 1. Get into the gym, take care of your diet, and work on your mental health. No one will hire you until you get out of this funk. Pull your shit together dude. No one wants to hire a frumpy sock. Lawyers must have confidence and charisma. You have to walk into your interview with a smile on your face, not a dear in the headlights look.

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks for the advice. Honestly, I think unless I can correct the interviewing issue small firms are not going to be very interested in me, because as I understand it they tend to care more about personality.

My main interviewing problem, as I see it, is that I am very low key and fairly introverted. Which I think leads my interviewers to think I am not interested in their Firm. The feedback I got from my interviews was that I come across as disinterested in the firm and that I fail to connect with my interviewers.

I am also very introverted. I also had a tough time at interviews, but I overcame my shyness. Scour the internet for articles on how to become more outgoing. This is absolutely necessary, not only to improve your interviewing skills, but also for your future practice as a lawyer. Lawyers must inspire confidence in their clients. Lawyers are actors. Lawyers are salesman. Successful actors and salesmen don't act like introverts on the job.
Last edited by JazzOne on Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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patrickd139
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:42 pm

JazzOne wrote:I really feel for you OP. I didn't get any job offers until very late in the hiring season. I felt depression and shame. I felt like I had dragged my family through a huge ordeal just so I could fail. I felt like a failure. It's amazing how this environment can tear you down. You need to get rid of this stench of desperation. That's step number 1. Get into the gym, take care of your diet, and work on your mental health. No one will hire you until you get out of this funk. Pull your shit together dude. No one wants to hire a frumpy sock. Lawyers must have confidence and charisma. You have to walk into your interview with a smile on your face, not a dear in the headlights look.

+1

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prismz
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby prismz » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:44 pm

JazzOne wrote:I really feel for you OP. I didn't get any job offers until very late in the hiring season. I felt depression and shame. I felt like I had dragged my family through a huge ordeal just so I could fail. I felt like a failure. It's amazing how this environment can tear you down. You need to get rid of this stench of desperation. That's step number 1. Get into the gym, take care of your diet, and work on your mental health. No one will hire you until you get out of this funk. Pull your shit together dude. No one wants to hire a frumpy sock. Lawyers must have confidence and charisma. You have to walk into your interview with a smile on your face, not a dear in the headlights look.


so many memes

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JazzOne
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:46 pm

prismz wrote:
JazzOne wrote:I really feel for you OP. I didn't get any job offers until very late in the hiring season. I felt depression and shame. I felt like I had dragged my family through a huge ordeal just so I could fail. I felt like a failure. It's amazing how this environment can tear you down. You need to get rid of this stench of desperation. That's step number 1. Get into the gym, take care of your diet, and work on your mental health. No one will hire you until you get out of this funk. Pull your shit together dude. No one wants to hire a frumpy sock. Lawyers must have confidence and charisma. You have to walk into your interview with a smile on your face, not a dear in the headlights look.


so many memes

--ImageRemoved--

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rayiner
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby rayiner » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:49 pm

prismz wrote:
JazzOne wrote:I really feel for you OP. I didn't get any job offers until very late in the hiring season. I felt depression and shame. I felt like I had dragged my family through a huge ordeal just so I could fail. I felt like a failure. It's amazing how this environment can tear you down. You need to get rid of this stench of desperation. That's step number 1. Get into the gym, take care of your diet, and work on your mental health. No one will hire you until you get out of this funk. Pull your shit together dude. No one wants to hire a frumpy sock. Lawyers must have confidence and charisma. You have to walk into your interview with a smile on your face, not a dear in the headlights look.


so many memes


"Frumpy sock" is my new favorite phrase. But it's absolutely on-point. You don't want to be a frumpy stock. You're competing in the worst job market in decades. Nobody wants someone who just expects to fall into a job. You gotta come across as having some killer instincts.

Also, OP, are you saying anything stupid? Common mistakes: indecisiveness (I want to do corporate and litigation), presumptuousness (I like your firm because of the high PPP), anything that displays weird or unusual level of intensity.

lovelaw27
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby lovelaw27 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:49 pm

I have posted this before but I thought I would post it again:

"Realize That Law Firms Never Want to Hire "Losers"
The firm will decide whether or not it wants to hire you based on almost exclusively on how well you do during your interviews. However, legal hiring organizations, especially law firms, never want to hire "losers." Your job during any law interview is to convince the legal hiring organization that you are not a "loser."

You can categorize interviewees in many ways. The following list of three basic types of candidates tends to match the three main types of lawyers. Those interviewing you will try to figure out which lawyer profile fits you. Law firms characterize lawyers as "Losers, Cruisers and Grinders." Cruisers and grinders will get hired, while losers will be quickly forgotten.

The Loser Candidate
First, a law firm wants to make sure you're not a loser. Law firms believe that a loser is a candidate who acts inappropriately during the interview or doesn't appear to be truly interested in the job. Losers are also those who will be difficult to manage if hired and indicate to their interviewers that they have had significant problems with their supervisors in their current or past positions. Law firms also believe losers are those who do not have a strong interest in practicing law or are arrogant.

Firms are always reluctant to hire interviewees who indicate that they do not like to work hard. You may also appear to be a loser to a firm if you fail to look directly at each of your interviewers during different points of the interview. All of the traits just described tend to fit losers; these attorneys rarely ever get hired. They generally make very poor lawyers and fail to thrive in a law firm environment.

The Cruiser Candidate
Cruisers represent about 30 to 40 percent of the people interviewed by law firms. A cruiser is the type of candidate who tends to do his work in a fairly competent manner. However, he never demonstrates a high level of enthusiasm for the practice of law. Furthermore, he never does anything to indicate that he is a truly outstanding lawyer who would like to make partner. At least he does not demonstrate a "fierce" drive to become a partner. Cruisers comprise the majority of people working in large law firms. They have truly exceptional backgrounds, good skills for developing clients and are capable of doing good work. They may even make partner one day. However, though cruisers do get hired, they are generally not the most desirable candidates.

The Grinder Candidate
Grinders, on the other hand, are sought out. A grinder is a person who demonstrates a single-minded obsession with being the best performer possible. They tend to bill the most hours, they try very hard to fit in well with everyone socially and they do very excellent work. While grinders desperately want to become partners, they manage to demonstrate their ambitious nature in appropriate ways. They also actively seek out clients. Oddly enough, some grinders fail to attract many new clients because they are so obsessed with the practice of law. In addition, these types of candidates may sometimes demonstrate certain weaknesses. However, they are usually able to be "malleable," which helps them overcome their weaknesses. These types of candidates typically get the most offers.

Though there are some exceptions to the categorizations listed above, you can be sure that losers never get hired and grinders land all of the most desirable positions. "

http://www.infirmation.com/articles/one ... le_id=2466

The only thing I would say is think about whether or not in your past interviews you demonstrated any of the characteristics of the loser candidate.

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patrickd139
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:51 pm

Not that it's too big a deal, but ^^^ you should probably cite that, lovelaw27

lovelaw27
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby lovelaw27 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:57 pm

yeah ok, it is kinda long

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:03 pm

This is a tough problem OP, are you sure body language, clothing, tone of voice are okay. I think it must be more than simply seeming disinterested. Most law students are probably on the more introverted side.

As a very introverted person who has wondered if my interviewing is the problem myself, I'll ask, is it better to risk coming across as fake or risk coming across as disinterested? If I try to feign enthusiasm I doubt it would end well. I mean, how is one enthusiastic about any aspect of biglaw except the money?

lovelaw27 wrote:I have posted this before but I thought I would post it again:

"Realize That Law Firms Never Want to Hire "Losers"
The firm will decide whether or not it wants to hire you based on almost exclusively on how well you do during your interviews. However, legal hiring organizations, especially law firms, never want to hire "losers." Your job during any law interview is to convince the legal hiring organization that you are not a "loser."


Wrong. Firms will make most of their hiring decisions based on grades. Plenty of disinterested, unsure top 10%ers get multiple offers at my T10. People with very good personalities (i.e. not 90% of law students) did outperform their grades. But it's really hard to fake a certain personality or attitude when that's not who you are 99% of the time.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:06 pm

Remain positive and keep trying. If you're thinking about dropping out, you're not showing the kind of mindset firms want. They want dedication and perserverance, and if you're acting at all in an interview like you're expressing your feelings here, then they might be picking up on that. Career services will be telling you that you're doing fine in the interview, but they may not be as attuned to the little details revealing a negative tone that experienced firm interviewers are.

Fake it if you have to, but keep your head up and keep trying as hard as you can. Blanket everything.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:07 pm

I'm in a similar position to OP and was wondering if anyone has suggestions for what to do as far as job searching at this point. Big and mid-sized firms are done hiring by now, and every smaller (20-50 attorney) firm that I've reached out to has said they're not hiring for the summer. At this point what do you do?

lovelaw27
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Re: Dropping out?

Postby lovelaw27 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:07 pm

.




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