30,000 legal jobs per year?

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romothesavior
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:31 pm

icouldbuyu wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote:I understand the difficulties in obtaining Big Law, but I know plenty of people who went to tier 3 law schools and made a fortune.

lol

icouldbuyu wrote:I think if you're smart enough, you don't get a JD so you can work in Big Law. You get a JD because it'll give you a competitive advantage in the business world.

LOL

icouldbuyu wrote:Having a JD opens tons of doors if you know how to utilize it.

ROTFL LOLOLOL


If you're a herb with no balls, then obviously the above doesn't apply.


You don't go to law school to "open doors," broseph. Most lawyers would even lol at that notion. There are going to be some people who have used their JD to gain a competitive advantage in the non-legal world, but those people are exceptions and not the norm. Going to law school with the intent to do anything but practice law is usually a pretty poor investment, unless a person has a concrete reason to do so. There is a reason the whole, "Having a lawl degree opens so many doors!" argument is usually perpetuated by people who didn't go to law school. Lawyers know better. Hell, having a law degree can actually close many doors.

If you think you have a legitimate, concrete reason for getting a law degree other than practicing law, then knock yourself out. But in general, that's a poor mentality for your average applicant.

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icouldbuyu
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby icouldbuyu » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:38 pm

romothesavior wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote:I understand the difficulties in obtaining Big Law, but I know plenty of people who went to tier 3 law schools and made a fortune.

lol

icouldbuyu wrote:I think if you're smart enough, you don't get a JD so you can work in Big Law. You get a JD because it'll give you a competitive advantage in the business world.

LOL

icouldbuyu wrote:Having a JD opens tons of doors if you know how to utilize it.

ROTFL LOLOLOL


If you're a herb with no balls, then obviously the above doesn't apply.


You don't go to law school to "open doors," broseph. Most lawyers would even lol at that notion. There are going to be some people who have used their JD to gain a competitive advantage in the non-legal world, but those people are exceptions and not the norm. Going to law school with the intent to do anything but practice law is usually a pretty poor investment, unless a person has a concrete reason to do so. There is a reason the whole, "Having a lawl degree opens so many doors!" argument is usually perpetuated by people who didn't go to law school. Lawyers know better. Hell, having a law degree can actually close many doors.

If you think you have a legitimate, concrete reason for getting a law degree other than practicing law, then knock yourself out. But in general, that's a poor mentality for your average applicant.


IDK, maybe i've had a different upbringing, but the lawyers that I know that make real money, really don't practice law. The real money is in applying your knowledge on more profitable ventures (e.g. construction, real estate, insurance, tax, & healthcare). I really don't know anybody that graduated from HYS and practice Big Law, so I can't speak for them. If being in corporate and always being someone's slave is what you're after, then maybe your right.

xyzbca
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby xyzbca » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:58 pm

icouldbuyu wrote:IDK, maybe i've had a different upbringing, but the lawyers that I know that make real money, really don't practice law. The real money is in applying your knowledge on more profitable ventures (e.g. construction, real estate, insurance, tax, & healthcare). I really don't know anybody that graduated from HYS and practice Big Law, so I can't speak for them. If being in corporate and always being someone's slave is what you're after, then maybe your right.


Lawyers are the hired help. You don't escape servitude by going into the ulimate service industry. Besides, anybody with strong "hustling" skills is better suited taking the $150K tuition money + three years and hustling up deals. I don't understand why a "hustler" would want to waste three years of "balls to the wall" deal making sitting in a law school classroom.

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IAFG
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:01 pm

icouldbuyu wrote: the lawyers that I know that make real money, really don't practice law

i wonder if they're recommending you go to LS then... i know a lot of people w law degrees making good money, none of whom are glad they went to LS.

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icouldbuyu
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby icouldbuyu » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:07 pm

IAFG wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote: the lawyers that I know that make real money, really don't practice law

i wonder if they're recommending you go to LS then... i know a lot of people w law degrees making good money, none of whom are glad they went to LS.


They are because of what I said...you learn certain things in law school (e.g contracts) that you don't learn anywhere else. 4 years in UG, and all i learned is how to calculate a mortgage and what an interest rate is.

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IAFG
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:08 pm

icouldbuyu wrote:
IAFG wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote: the lawyers that I know that make real money, really don't practice law

i wonder if they're recommending you go to LS then... i know a lot of people w law degrees making good money, none of whom are glad they went to LS.


They are because of what I said...you learn certain things in law school (e.g contracts) that you don't learn anywhere else. 4 years in UG, and all i learned is how to calculate a mortgage and what an interest rate is.

i could learn to do my own hair at beauty school, but i am content paying someone else to handle it for me.

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romothesavior
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:10 pm

icouldbuyu wrote:
IAFG wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote: the lawyers that I know that make real money, really don't practice law

i wonder if they're recommending you go to LS then... i know a lot of people w law degrees making good money, none of whom are glad they went to LS.


They are because of what I said...you learn certain things in law school (e.g contracts) that you don't learn anywhere else. 4 years in UG, and all i learned is how to calculate a mortgage and what an interest rate is.


Are you in law school now?

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JazzOne
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:13 pm

icouldbuyu wrote:IDK, maybe i've had a different upbringing, but the lawyers that I know that make real money, really don't practice law. The real money is in applying your knowledge on more profitable ventures (e.g. construction, real estate, insurance, tax, & healthcare). I really don't know anybody that graduated from HYS and practice Big Law, so I can't speak for them. If being in corporate and always being someone's slave is what you're after, then maybe your right.

:lol:

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:26 pm

icouldbuyu wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote:
General Tso wrote:1. 55k is damn good money for someone with an UG degree only (although I too worry about the long-term future of accounting work due to outsourcing).
2. link on the 100k GP salary in NY? Everything I have read is that GPs get around 150k while specialists get 250-400k depending on speciality and location.


http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job ... ner/Salary

I was offered 65k and turned it down. When you consider that you'll be working about 60 hours/week, 65k ain't so great. I refuse to sell myself short. I understand the difficulties in obtaining Big Law, but I know plenty of people who went to tier 3 law schools and made a fortune. I think if you're smart enough, you don't get a JD so you can work in Big Law. You get a JD because it'll give you a competitive advantage in the business world. For example, I have a friend who got his JD from a Tier 3 and is thriving in construction. Having a JD opens tons of doors if you know how to utilize it.


And the prize for the dumbest post in the thread goes to...

You ever hear of an MBA?



What you should've said is CFA, not MBA. MBA is worthless if you don't already work in reputable position. I used to work with kids who were still interns making 20/hour even though they had MBA's. My illiterate grandmother has an MBA, so how does that make you different. What are going to learn of any use in an MBA program: what's an interest rate? Whereas, learning about contracts and tax laws has practical applications. Further, by business world, I'm not talking about working in operations; I'm talking about opening a business or in my case starting a tax practice.


CFA? As in the Chartered Financial Analyst? You know that’s an exam right?

I don’t understand why you think you learn anything in law school. I’m a 3L right now, and I can honestly say that I’m just about as dumb now as I was when I started 2.5 years ago (i.e. I haven’t learned jackshit). The same is true in business school. The point of an education isn’t to learn anything substantive really (it’s not that hard to look things up when you need to). I think it’s to show employers that you can commit to accomplishing something, and to use the school’s career network to get a job that you otherwise couldn’t have gotten. The latter part of that is why going to a low ranking school is generally a bad investment (because there isn’t much of a career network there).

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:34 pm

Oh, I think that's exagerating a bit. I've certainly learned some substance in my classes (particularly the technical classes) - and, without the general law school background that taught me "how to learn about the law," I doubt I (or many other people) could have taught it all to myself.

xyzbca
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby xyzbca » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:36 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Oh, I think that's exagerating a bit. I've certainly learned some substance in my classes (particularly the technical classes) - and, without the general law school background that taught me "how to learn about the law," I doubt I (or many other people) could have taught it all to myself.


You must not be a hustler...

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IAFG
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:38 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Oh, I think that's exagerating a bit. I've certainly learned some substance in my classes (particularly the technical classes) - and, without the general law school background that taught me "how to learn about the law," I doubt I (or many other people) could have taught it all to myself.

this. it would take an arrogant SOB to jump on westlaw or whatever and think they knew what the law was without any legal training.


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Noval
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby Noval » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:28 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Noval wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote: Besides, many medical students are unable to attain the residency or specialty they desire, but they're still doctors. Lawyers unable to obtain biglaw jobs are still lawyers.


Doctors unable to get their chosen residency still get to practice medicine, and are thus doctors. Lawyers unable to get a legal job don't get to practice law, and are thus not lawyers.


The thing that most people fail to understand is that if a Medical Student doesn't win the R.O.A.D.P. Specialties lottery, he's stuck with a shitty Speciality with shit job prospects, shit working hours and salary only averaging 120-150k/year.

Considering the working hours, debts, lack of "lifestyle", do you really think Medicine is a better investment than Law in the long run ?

I prefer risking myself a bit at a Top Law Institution and eventually end up with a good paying job at my late 20s and beast exit opportunities to Business positions than going into Medicine, study 12 years on average after UG and start building my client base at 34-35 to start my life at 40, then worry about debt repayment, malpractice insurance, kids, house, wife ?


Waaaaait a minute. Let me see if I follow what you're saying. You're saying worst case scenario for medicine is a bad specialty and bad hours for 120-150k/year? And that's worse than law?

You do realize that the worst case scenario for law students is no legal job, right? And you do realize that this is a prospect that confronts the majority of law students? And you also realize that an overwhelmingly large number of people who are lucky enough to get jobs don't have any say in what they work on (hello doc review!), work awful hours, and make less money than they would be making if they had just worked for those three years instead of going to law school?

So yes, I think medicine is a far better investment than law. It isn't even close.

P.S. Unless by "top law institution" you mean Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, there is at least a decent probability of what I just laid out happening to you. Your whole argument is premised on "eventually ending up with a good paying job in your late 20s and beast exit opportunities." I'm sure the other 40,000+ students in any graduation year are gunning for the same thing and the overwhelming majority are not going to get it.



Ok Mr.Genius, i didn't say 120k-150k working 80 hours/week was worse than no Legal Job in Law, but if you consider Debts, expensive life in big cities, Insurances eating your paycheck, 120k-150k is nothing, especially when you sacrified the best years of your life studying 70 hours a week for 10-15 years non-stop.Yeah, you still "have a job", but that's just enough "to get your broke ass home" if you want a piece of reality here.

Sure, the smartest Medical Students always hit the best Specialties, but the smartest Law Students always go to the best Law Schools and have access to the best jobs, which, in the long run, end up paying far more than being an M.D.

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romothesavior
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:57 pm

Noval wrote:Ok Mr.Genius, i didn't say 120k-150k working 80 hours/week was worse than no Legal Job in Law, but if you consider Debts, expensive life in big cities, Insurances eating your paycheck, 120k-150k is nothing, especially when you sacrified the best years of your life studying 70 hours a week for 10-15 years non-stop.Yeah, you still "have a job", but that's just enough "to get your broke ass home" if you want a piece of reality here.

Sure, the smartest Medical Students always hit the best Specialties, but the smartest Law Students always go to the best Law Schools and have access to the best jobs, which, in the long run, end up paying far more than being an M.D.

1. LOL @ 150k being "nothing." You must have been born with a spoon in your mouth if you think making in like the 93%ile is "just enough to get your broke ass home"

2. The bolded is just absurd. The best law jobs also pay in the 150k range to start, and again, unless you mean HYS by "best law schools," then there are going to be a ton of students on the outside looking in at these "best jobs." Nearly all med students are looking at financial security (maybe not models and bottles, but a decent job that puts a roof over their head) and a substantial number are looking at making bank. Are you really telling me that is the case for law students, even at T14 schools? Most median law students at Cornell or Georgetown are worried sick about their debt and their job prospects. The median student (or even bottom of the barrel student) at Bumfuck U Med School may be disappointed they don't get to do their residency with Dr. House, but they'll at least get to practice medicine and pay their loans back.

3. Please learn what a proper noun is.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby UnTouChablE » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:58 pm

ITT a pinch of reality and much too much exaggeration and fear-mongering.

Everything is a gamble and law school is a much safer gamble at a chance at 160k than most. But we have way too many lawyers so we need this, anyone that allows themselves to be dissuaded from attending law school by doom and gloom predictions probably would have gotten curve pawned anyway.

Aqualibrium
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:02 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Noval wrote:Ok Mr.Genius, i didn't say 120k-150k working 80 hours/week was worse than no Legal Job in Law, but if you consider Debts, expensive life in big cities, Insurances eating your paycheck, 120k-150k is nothing, especially when you sacrified the best years of your life studying 70 hours a week for 10-15 years non-stop.Yeah, you still "have a job", but that's just enough "to get your broke ass home" if you want a piece of reality here.

Sure, the smartest Medical Students always hit the best Specialties, but the smartest Law Students always go to the best Law Schools and have access to the best jobs, which, in the long run, end up paying far more than being an M.D.

1. LOL @ 150k being "nothing." You must have been born with a spoon in your mouth if you think making in like the 93%ile is "just enough to get your broke ass home"

2. The bolded is just absurd. The best law jobs also pay in the 150k range to start, and again, unless you mean HYS by "best law schools," then there are going to be a ton of students on the outside looking in at these "best jobs." Nearly all med students are looking at financial security (maybe not models and bottles, but a decent job that puts a roof over their head) and a substantial number are looking at making bank. Are you really telling me that is the case for law students, even at T14 schools? Most median law students at Cornell or Georgetown are worried sick about their debt and their job prospects. The median student (or even bottom of the barrel student) at Bumfuck U Med School may be disappointed they don't get to do their residency with Dr. House, but they'll at least get to practice medicine and pay their loans back.

3. Please learn what a proper noun is.



What did I tell you about feeding the troll?

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romothesavior
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:04 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:What did I tell you about feeding the troll?


:oops:

I know... I couldn't help it.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:10 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:ITT a pinch of reality and much too much exaggeration and fear-mongering.

Everything is a gamble and law school is a much safer gamble at a chance at 160k than most. But we have way too many lawyers so we need this, anyone that allows themselves to be dissuaded from attending law school by doom and gloom predictions probably would have gotten curve pawned anyway.



"Anyone that allows themselves to be dissuaded from attending law school by engaging in cost-benefit analysis thereby demonstrating at least some logical reasoning ability probably would have gotten curve pawned anyway."

lolwut

Edit: Noval is... I don't even have a word for it. I don't think he's trolling, I just think he's dumb.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby UnTouChablE » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:19 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:ITT a pinch of reality and much too much exaggeration and fear-mongering.

Everything is a gamble and law school is a much safer gamble at a chance at 160k than most. But we have way too many lawyers so we need this, anyone that allows themselves to be dissuaded from attending law school by doom and gloom predictions probably would have gotten curve pawned anyway.



"Anyone that allows themselves to be dissuaded from attending law school by engaging in cost-benefit analysis thereby demonstrating at least some logical reasoning ability probably would have gotten curve pawned anyway."

lolwut


"Anyone that allows themselves to be dissuaded from attending law school by engaging in short-sighted, faulty cost-benefits analysis with ppl whose arguments are basically synthesized in 'the grass is greener on the other side' would probably have gotten curve pawned anyway."

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:25 pm

"Faulty cost-benefit analysis," seriously? Because clearly deciding a 10% chance at $130k-160k vs. a 90% chance at $25k-45k with $180 of non-dischargeable debt is "faulty" cost-benefit analysis. Are you one of those "law school is an end unto itself" people?

Also, I'll be really interested to see your tune after first semester grades come in.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby UnTouChablE » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:47 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:"Faulty cost-benefit analysis," seriously? Because clearly deciding a 10% chance at $130k-160k vs. a 90% chance at $25k-45k with $180 of non-dischargeable debt is "faulty" cost-benefit analysis. Are you one of those "law school is an end unto itself" people?

Also, I'll be really interested to see your tune after first semester grades come in.


Its faulty because it fails to take in consideration a whole host of things, judging your future career based solely on biglaw chances is not sound judgment. If you want to be a lawyer, then do that.

Everything in life basically boils down to taking a 10% chance at some point or another if you want to be 'successful', for ppl to signal law school as riskier than other endeavors shows a lack of understanding of those 'other' possible paths.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:50 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:"Faulty cost-benefit analysis," seriously? Because clearly deciding a 10% chance at $130k-160k vs. a 90% chance at $25k-45k with $180 of non-dischargeable debt is "faulty" cost-benefit analysis. Are you one of those "law school is an end unto itself" people?

Also, I'll be really interested to see your tune after first semester grades come in.


Its faulty because it fails to take in consideration a whole host of things, judging your future career based solely on biglaw chances is not sound judgment. If you want to be a lawyer, then do that.

Everything in life basically boils down to taking a 10% chance at some point or another if you want to be 'successful', for ppl to signal law school as riskier than other endeavors shows a lack of understanding of those 'other' possible paths.


The difference is that the vast majority of those other risks don't involve $160k+ of non-dischargeable debt. Sure, starting any business enterprise, etc., is extremely risky. And yes, you may end up bankrupt because of it. But at least, in the worst case, you can wipe the slate clean, and start back at 0. Not so here. It's a much different circumstance.

And I'm not saying "biglaw or bust." I'm saying you need to do an accurate cost-benefit analysis, and that accounts for job prospects vs. level of debt you're taking on. That isn't "biglaw or bust" for lots of people. But, for people in a situation where they may be unable to find any job - including an IBR-eligible job - they need to think long and hard. For many people - many of whom I know - law school ends up being an absolutely ruinous financial decision.

xyzbca
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby xyzbca » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:57 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:Its faulty because it fails to take in consideration a whole host of things, judging your future career based solely on biglaw chances is not sound judgment. If you want to be a lawyer, then do that.

Everything in life basically boils down to taking a 10% chance at some point or another if you want to be 'successful', for ppl to signal law school as riskier than other endeavors shows a lack of understanding of those 'other' possible paths.


The issue is being faced with a crushing debt load that will minimize your personal options for about 10 to 15 years post graduation. The majority of risks that people take in life can be discharged in bankruptcy. Student loans cannot.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby UnTouChablE » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:13 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
The difference is that the vast majority of those other risks don't involve $160k+ of non-dischargeable debt. Sure, starting any business enterprise, etc., is extremely risky. And yes, you may end up bankrupt because of it. But at least, in the worst case, you can wipe the slate clean, and start back at 0. Not so here. It's a much different circumstance.

And I'm not saying "biglaw or bust." I'm saying you need to do an accurate cost-benefit analysis, and that accounts for job prospects vs. level of debt you're taking on. That isn't "biglaw or bust" for lots of people. But, for people in a situation where they may be unable to find any job - including an IBR-eligible job - they need to think long and hard. For many people - many of whom I know - law school ends up being an absolutely ruinous financial decision.


You can never wipe the slate clean when it comes to bankruptcy. Giving up seven years of worth of credit, you can't even co-sign for your kid to go to college, is as steep a price as 160k of debt over a life time, arguably.

The only way law school ends up being a 'ruinous financial decision' is if you paid more than 'you think' the degree is worth. If being a practicing lawyer is not worth your tuition, don't go to that school. If you are paying for a chance at biglaw/ at a job then make sure the tuition is worth that lottery ticket. Not being able to find a job is a reality no matter what you chose to do. 'Long and hard thinking' does not change the fact that if you want to be a lawyer this is as good a time as any to be one.




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