30,000 legal jobs per year?

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IAFG
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:16 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
The difference is that the vast majority of those other risks don't involve $160k+ of non-dischargeable debt. Sure, starting any business enterprise, etc., is extremely risky. And yes, you may end up bankrupt because of it. But at least, in the worst case, you can wipe the slate clean, and start back at 0. Not so here. It's a much different circumstance.

And I'm not saying "biglaw or bust." I'm saying you need to do an accurate cost-benefit analysis, and that accounts for job prospects vs. level of debt you're taking on. That isn't "biglaw or bust" for lots of people. But, for people in a situation where they may be unable to find any job - including an IBR-eligible job - they need to think long and hard. For many people - many of whom I know - law school ends up being an absolutely ruinous financial decision.


You can never wipe the slate clean when it comes to bankruptcy. Giving up seven years of worth of credit, you can't even co-sign for your kid to go to college, is as steep a price as 160k of debt over a life time, arguably.

The only way law school ends up being a 'ruinous financial decision' is if you paid more than 'you think' the degree is worth. If being a practicing lawyer is not worth your tuition, don't go to that school. If you are paying for a chance at biglaw/ at a job then make sure the tuition is worth that lottery ticket. Not being able to find a job is a reality no matter what you chose to do. 'Long and hard thinking' does not change the fact that if you want to be a lawyer this is as good a time as any to be one.

1) a lot of people want to be a lawyer without having a realistic idea of what that means
2) there are things i would like to be, but i am not going to invest thousands of dollars into trying to be that unless i am reasonably sure doing so will put me in a position to pay back my debt
3) i hate myself for turning everything into numbered lists and have law school to thank for this shit

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:18 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
The difference is that the vast majority of those other risks don't involve $160k+ of non-dischargeable debt. Sure, starting any business enterprise, etc., is extremely risky. And yes, you may end up bankrupt because of it. But at least, in the worst case, you can wipe the slate clean, and start back at 0. Not so here. It's a much different circumstance.

And I'm not saying "biglaw or bust." I'm saying you need to do an accurate cost-benefit analysis, and that accounts for job prospects vs. level of debt you're taking on. That isn't "biglaw or bust" for lots of people. But, for people in a situation where they may be unable to find any job - including an IBR-eligible job - they need to think long and hard. For many people - many of whom I know - law school ends up being an absolutely ruinous financial decision.


You can never wipe the slate clean when it comes to bankruptcy. Giving up seven years of worth of credit, you can't even co-sign for your kid to go to college, is as steep a price as 160k of debt over a life time, arguably.

The only way law school ends up being a 'ruinous financial decision' is if you paid more than 'you think' the degree is worth. If being a practicing lawyer is not worth your tuition, don't go to that school. If you are paying for a chance at biglaw/ at a job then make sure the tuition is worth that lottery ticket. Not being able to find a job is a reality no matter what you chose to do. 'Long and hard thinking' does not change the fact that if you want to be a lawyer this is as good a time as any to be one.


FYI, that $160k of debt will have the same impact on your credit as a bankruptcy.

And, the bolded is the point. For a LOT of people, there is a very real risk that you won't end up being a practicing lawyer. And unless you can articulate a damned good reason why you "want to be lawyer" that has nothing to do with money and is something you can obtain without being able to find a job as a lawyer, then yeah, you might want to reconsider. I "want" to be the principal bassoonist in the chicago Symphony, too, but that's not going to happen either. Fortunately, I was smart enough to turn down the $200k worth of debt that a Julliard educatio would have left me with - because I did a cost/benefit analysis, and decided that the cost wasn't worth it.

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Noval
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby Noval » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:22 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Noval wrote:Ok Mr.Genius, i didn't say 120k-150k working 80 hours/week was worse than no Legal Job in Law, but if you consider Debts, expensive life in big cities, Insurances eating your paycheck, 120k-150k is nothing, especially when you sacrified the best years of your life studying 70 hours a week for 10-15 years non-stop.Yeah, you still "have a job", but that's just enough "to get your broke ass home" if you want a piece of reality here.

Sure, the smartest Medical Students always hit the best Specialties, but the smartest Law Students always go to the best Law Schools and have access to the best jobs, which, in the long run, end up paying far more than being an M.D.

1. LOL @ 150k being "nothing." You must have been born with a spoon in your mouth if you think making in like the 93%ile is "just enough to get your broke ass home"

2. The bolded is just absurd. The best law jobs also pay in the 150k range to start, and again, unless you mean HYS by "best law schools," then there are going to be a ton of students on the outside looking in at these "best jobs." Nearly all med students are looking at financial security (maybe not models and bottles, but a decent job that puts a roof over their head) and a substantial number are looking at making bank. Are you really telling me that is the case for law students, even at T14 schools? Most median law students at Cornell or Georgetown are worried sick about their debt and their job prospects. The median student (or even bottom of the barrel student) at Bumfuck U Med School may be disappointed they don't get to do their residency with Dr. House, but they'll at least get to practice medicine and pay their loans back.

3. Please learn what a proper noun is.


Just shut the fuck up, you don't even know what you're talking about, all you're doing is bring back to same old subject and claim i'm wrong.
Start by finishing Law School, pass the bar, get into BigLaw, then come back to me saying i'm wrong, i still remember what it was like to be a Law Student, i didn't know shit, neither do you, until then, shut the fuck up and stop arguing for subjects you can't debate using nothing but hypocritical insults to make yourself look less dumb when in reality, you're one of the biggest dumbasses TLS had to endure since it's creation.

Hope it showed you the way to shutting the fuck up.
Last edited by Noval on Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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stratocophic
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby stratocophic » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:30 pm

Noval wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Noval wrote:Ok Mr.Genius, i didn't say 120k-150k working 80 hours/week was worse than no Legal Job in Law, but if you consider Debts, expensive life in big cities, Insurances eating your paycheck, 120k-150k is nothing, especially when you sacrified the best years of your life studying 70 hours a week for 10-15 years non-stop.Yeah, you still "have a job", but that's just enough "to get your broke ass home" if you want a piece of reality here.

Sure, the smartest Medical Students always hit the best Specialties, but the smartest Law Students always go to the best Law Schools and have access to the best jobs, which, in the long run, end up paying far more than being an M.D.

1. LOL @ 150k being "nothing." You must have been born with a spoon in your mouth if you think making in like the 93%ile is "just enough to get your broke ass home"

2. The bolded is just absurd. The best law jobs also pay in the 150k range to start, and again, unless you mean HYS by "best law schools," then there are going to be a ton of students on the outside looking in at these "best jobs." Nearly all med students are looking at financial security (maybe not models and bottles, but a decent job that puts a roof over their head) and a substantial number are looking at making bank. Are you really telling me that is the case for law students, even at T14 schools? Most median law students at Cornell or Georgetown are worried sick about their debt and their job prospects. The median student (or even bottom of the barrel student) at Bumfuck U Med School may be disappointed they don't get to do their residency with Dr. House, but they'll at least get to practice medicine and pay their loans back.

3. Please learn what a proper noun is.


Just shut the fuck up, you don't even know what you're talking about, all you're doing is bring back to same old subject and claim i'm wrong.
Start by finishing Law School, pass the bar, get into BigLaw, then come back to me saying i'm wrong, i know what it's like to be a Law Student, i didn't know shit, neither do you, until then, shut the fuck up.
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ToTransferOrNot
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:32 pm

Noval wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Noval wrote:Ok Mr.Genius, i didn't say 120k-150k working 80 hours/week was worse than no Legal Job in Law, but if you consider Debts, expensive life in big cities, Insurances eating your paycheck, 120k-150k is nothing, especially when you sacrified the best years of your life studying 70 hours a week for 10-15 years non-stop.Yeah, you still "have a job", but that's just enough "to get your broke ass home" if you want a piece of reality here.

Sure, the smartest Medical Students always hit the best Specialties, but the smartest Law Students always go to the best Law Schools and have access to the best jobs, which, in the long run, end up paying far more than being an M.D.

1. LOL @ 150k being "nothing." You must have been born with a spoon in your mouth if you think making in like the 93%ile is "just enough to get your broke ass home"

2. The bolded is just absurd. The best law jobs also pay in the 150k range to start, and again, unless you mean HYS by "best law schools," then there are going to be a ton of students on the outside looking in at these "best jobs." Nearly all med students are looking at financial security (maybe not models and bottles, but a decent job that puts a roof over their head) and a substantial number are looking at making bank. Are you really telling me that is the case for law students, even at T14 schools? Most median law students at Cornell or Georgetown are worried sick about their debt and their job prospects. The median student (or even bottom of the barrel student) at Bumfuck U Med School may be disappointed they don't get to do their residency with Dr. House, but they'll at least get to practice medicine and pay their loans back.

3. Please learn what a proper noun is.


Just shut the fuck up, you don't even know what you're talking about, all you're doing is bring back to same old subject and claim i'm wrong.
Start by finishing Law School, pass the bar, get into BigLaw, then come back to me saying i'm wrong, i still remember what it was like to be a Law Student, i didn't know shit, neither do you, until then, shut the fuck up and stop arguing for subjects you can't debate using nothing but hypocritical insults to make yourself look less dumb when in reality, you're one of the biggest dumbasses TLS had to endure since it's creation.

Hope it showed you the way to shutting the fuck up.


Most people edit posts to make themselves look less stupid, not more stupid. HTH.

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Noval
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby Noval » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:35 pm

stratocophic wrote:
Noval wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Noval wrote:Ok Mr.Genius, i didn't say 120k-150k working 80 hours/week was worse than no Legal Job in Law, but if you consider Debts, expensive life in big cities, Insurances eating your paycheck, 120k-150k is nothing, especially when you sacrified the best years of your life studying 70 hours a week for 10-15 years non-stop.Yeah, you still "have a job", but that's just enough "to get your broke ass home" if you want a piece of reality here.

Sure, the smartest Medical Students always hit the best Specialties, but the smartest Law Students always go to the best Law Schools and have access to the best jobs, which, in the long run, end up paying far more than being an M.D.

1. LOL @ 150k being "nothing." You must have been born with a spoon in your mouth if you think making in like the 93%ile is "just enough to get your broke ass home"

2. The bolded is just absurd. The best law jobs also pay in the 150k range to start, and again, unless you mean HYS by "best law schools," then there are going to be a ton of students on the outside looking in at these "best jobs." Nearly all med students are looking at financial security (maybe not models and bottles, but a decent job that puts a roof over their head) and a substantial number are looking at making bank. Are you really telling me that is the case for law students, even at T14 schools? Most median law students at Cornell or Georgetown are worried sick about their debt and their job prospects. The median student (or even bottom of the barrel student) at Bumfuck U Med School may be disappointed they don't get to do their residency with Dr. House, but they'll at least get to practice medicine and pay their loans back.

3. Please learn what a proper noun is.


Just shut the fuck up, you don't even know what you're talking about, all you're doing is bring back to same old subject and claim i'm wrong.
Start by finishing Law School, pass the bar, get into BigLaw, then come back to me saying i'm wrong, i know what it's like to be a Law Student, i didn't know shit, neither do you, until then, shut the fuck up.
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Noval
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby Noval » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:35 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Noval wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Noval wrote:Ok Mr.Genius, i didn't say 120k-150k working 80 hours/week was worse than no Legal Job in Law, but if you consider Debts, expensive life in big cities, Insurances eating your paycheck, 120k-150k is nothing, especially when you sacrified the best years of your life studying 70 hours a week for 10-15 years non-stop.Yeah, you still "have a job", but that's just enough "to get your broke ass home" if you want a piece of reality here.

Sure, the smartest Medical Students always hit the best Specialties, but the smartest Law Students always go to the best Law Schools and have access to the best jobs, which, in the long run, end up paying far more than being an M.D.

1. LOL @ 150k being "nothing." You must have been born with a spoon in your mouth if you think making in like the 93%ile is "just enough to get your broke ass home"

2. The bolded is just absurd. The best law jobs also pay in the 150k range to start, and again, unless you mean HYS by "best law schools," then there are going to be a ton of students on the outside looking in at these "best jobs." Nearly all med students are looking at financial security (maybe not models and bottles, but a decent job that puts a roof over their head) and a substantial number are looking at making bank. Are you really telling me that is the case for law students, even at T14 schools? Most median law students at Cornell or Georgetown are worried sick about their debt and their job prospects. The median student (or even bottom of the barrel student) at Bumfuck U Med School may be disappointed they don't get to do their residency with Dr. House, but they'll at least get to practice medicine and pay their loans back.

3. Please learn what a proper noun is.


Just shut the fuck up, you don't even know what you're talking about, all you're doing is bring back to same old subject and claim i'm wrong.
Start by finishing Law School, pass the bar, get into BigLaw, then come back to me saying i'm wrong, i still remember what it was like to be a Law Student, i didn't know shit, neither do you, until then, shut the fuck up and stop arguing for subjects you can't debate using nothing but hypocritical insults to make yourself look less dumb when in reality, you're one of the biggest dumbasses TLS had to endure since it's creation.

Hope it showed you the way to shutting the fuck up.


Most people edit posts to make themselves look less stupid, not more stupid. HTH.

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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:37 pm

Noval wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Most people edit posts to make themselves look less stupid, not more stupid. HTH.

lol

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UnTouChablE
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby UnTouChablE » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:37 pm

IAFG wrote:1) a lot of people want to be a lawyer without having a realistic idea of what that means
2) there are things i would like to be, but i am not going to invest thousands of dollars into trying to be that unless i am reasonably sure doing so will put me in a position to pay back my debt
3) i hate myself for turning everything into numbered lists and have law school to thank for this shit


I think that is the issue we have (feel free to disagree), we have lawyers that never use their law degrees. Rather than scare ppl which is fun to do, we should inform them of what a lawyer does and can reasonable expect to do. That should help prospective students more than fear of the job market. Alot of students do not want to be lawyers, but since they have no idea wtf a lawyer does, they make it up. But you do not go into medicine if you do not like blood, and that is how they keep the profession from overcrowding.

But then we run into the problem of these massive salaries that have the opposite effect as information does. 160,000 right out of school is a heck of an incentive, so I see where all this 'there are no jobs out there for anyone save HYS grads' are coming from. But lets not lose sight of the objective (keeping uninformed, starry eyed wannabes with good gpa's and Lsat scores out of our schools) because I wouldn't want one 'real' law student to wait an additional year because of the job market.

#2 is an unreasonable concern, no one is going to invest that amount of money in something that is not realistic.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:40 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) a lot of people want to be a lawyer without having a realistic idea of what that means
2) there are things i would like to be, but i am not going to invest thousands of dollars into trying to be that unless i am reasonably sure doing so will put me in a position to pay back my debt
3) i hate myself for turning everything into numbered lists and have law school to thank for this shit


I think that is the issue we have (feel free to disagree), we have lawyers that never use their law degrees. Rather than scare ppl which is fun to do, we should inform them of what a lawyer does and can reasonable expect to do. That should help prospective students more than fear of the job market. Alot of students do not want to be lawyers, but since they have no idea wtf a lawyer does, they make it up. But you do not go into medicine if you do not like blood, and that is how they keep the profession from overcrowding.

But then we run into the problem of these massive salaries that have the opposite effect as information does. 160,000 right out of school is a heck of an incentive, so I see where all this 'there are no jobs out there for anyone save HYS grads' are coming from. But lets not lose sight of the objective (keeping uninformed, starry eyed wannabes with good gpa's and Lsat scores out of our schools) because I wouldn't want one 'real' law student to wait an additional year because of the job market.

#2 is an unreasonable concern, no one is going to invest that amount of money in something that is not realistic.


Jesusfuckingchrist, have you been paying attention?

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UnTouChablE
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby UnTouChablE » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:40 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:FYI, that $160k of debt will have the same impact on your credit as a bankruptcy.

And, the bolded is the point. For a LOT of people, there is a very real risk that you won't end up being a practicing lawyer. And unless you can articulate a damned good reason why you "want to be lawyer" that has nothing to do with money and is something you can obtain without being able to find a job as a lawyer, then yeah, you might want to reconsider. I "want" to be the principal bassoonist in the chicago Symphony, too, but that's not going to happen either. Fortunately, I was smart enough to turn down the $200k worth of debt that a Julliard educatio would have left me with - because I did a cost/benefit analysis, and decided that the cost wasn't worth it.


I answered the question above and would welcome a response.

I just wanted to say if you get into Julliard, you should probably take that 200k in debt. shitttt, Julliard is serious.

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IAFG
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:42 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:
IAFG wrote:1) a lot of people want to be a lawyer without having a realistic idea of what that means
2) there are things i would like to be, but i am not going to invest thousands of dollars into trying to be that unless i am reasonably sure doing so will put me in a position to pay back my debt
3) i hate myself for turning everything into numbered lists and have law school to thank for this shit


I think that is the issue we have (feel free to disagree), we have lawyers that never use their law degrees. Rather than scare ppl which is fun to do, we should inform them of what a lawyer does and can reasonable expect to do. That should help prospective students more than fear of the job market. Alot of students do not want to be lawyers, but since they have no idea wtf a lawyer does, they make it up. But you do not go into medicine if you do not like blood, and that is how they keep the profession from overcrowding.

But then we run into the problem of these massive salaries that have the opposite effect as information does. 160,000 right out of school is a heck of an incentive, so I see where all this 'there are no jobs out there for anyone save HYS grads' are coming from. But lets not lose sight of the objective (keeping uninformed, starry eyed wannabes with good gpa's and Lsat scores out of our schools) because I wouldn't want one 'real' law student to wait an additional year because of the job market.

#2 is an unreasonable concern, no one is going to invest that amount of money in something that is not realistic.

i agree that better information would help

lots of people do invest in something unrealistic, which is their fantasies about what lawyers do and what they'll get paid to do it. other things people irrationally invest in: undergraduate degrees in the liberal arts, culinary school, etc

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:44 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:FYI, that $160k of debt will have the same impact on your credit as a bankruptcy.

And, the bolded is the point. For a LOT of people, there is a very real risk that you won't end up being a practicing lawyer. And unless you can articulate a damned good reason why you "want to be lawyer" that has nothing to do with money and is something you can obtain without being able to find a job as a lawyer, then yeah, you might want to reconsider. I "want" to be the principal bassoonist in the chicago Symphony, too, but that's not going to happen either. Fortunately, I was smart enough to turn down the $200k worth of debt that a Julliard educatio would have left me with - because I did a cost/benefit analysis, and decided that the cost wasn't worth it.


I answered the question above and would welcome a response.

I just wanted to say if you get into Julliard, you should probably take that 200k in debt. shitttt, Julliard is serious.


Except that, Julliard or not, getting a music job as a bassoonist to pay off $200k in debt is incredibly unlikely. So, I turned it down (this was back when I was looking at UG institutions - the decision came and went almost 10 years ago, now).

Also, you didn't really 'answer the question.' People say they want to be a lawyer because of any number of reasons - but frequently, many of these reasons rely on actually getting a decent legal job. So, the discussion goes back to chances of getting said decent job.

xyzbca
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby xyzbca » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:49 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:I think that is the issue we have (feel free to disagree), we have lawyers that never use their law degrees. Rather than scare ppl which is fun to do, we should inform them of what a lawyer does and can reasonable expect to do. That should help prospective students more than fear of the job market. Alot of students do not want to be lawyers, but since they have no idea wtf a lawyer does, they make it up. But you do not go into medicine if you do not like blood, and that is how they keep the profession from overcrowding.

But then we run into the problem of these massive salaries that have the opposite effect as information does. 160,000 right out of school is a heck of an incentive, so I see where all this 'there are no jobs out there for anyone save HYS grads' are coming from. But lets not lose sight of the objective (keeping uninformed, starry eyed wannabes with good gpa's and Lsat scores out of our schools) because I wouldn't want one 'real' law student to wait an additional year because of the job market.

#2 is an unreasonable concern, no one is going to invest that amount of money in something that is not realistic.


Medicine is protected from overcrowding by limiting the number of seats available in MD and DO schools. There are 25,000 yearly residency spots in the US but up until recently, MD and DO schools were graduating about 19,000 new doctors a year. This has nothing to do with informing people of the risks involved or educating people on what being a doctor entails. The AMA and AOA have done a fantastic job of keeping supply tight by guarding the the proverbial gate.

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Seally
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby Seally » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:18 am

xyzbca wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:I think that is the issue we have (feel free to disagree), we have lawyers that never use their law degrees. Rather than scare ppl which is fun to do, we should inform them of what a lawyer does and can reasonable expect to do. That should help prospective students more than fear of the job market. Alot of students do not want to be lawyers, but since they have no idea wtf a lawyer does, they make it up. But you do not go into medicine if you do not like blood, and that is how they keep the profession from overcrowding.

But then we run into the problem of these massive salaries that have the opposite effect as information does. 160,000 right out of school is a heck of an incentive, so I see where all this 'there are no jobs out there for anyone save HYS grads' are coming from. But lets not lose sight of the objective (keeping uninformed, starry eyed wannabes with good gpa's and Lsat scores out of our schools) because I wouldn't want one 'real' law student to wait an additional year because of the job market.

#2 is an unreasonable concern, no one is going to invest that amount of money in something that is not realistic.


Medicine is protected from overcrowding by limiting the number of seats available in MD and DO schools. There are 25,000 yearly residency spots in the US but up until recently, MD and DO schools were graduating about 19,000 new doctors a year. This has nothing to do with informing people of the risks involved or educating people on what being a doctor entails. The AMA and AOA have done a fantastic job of keeping supply tight by guarding the the proverbial gate.


The AMA is building new Medical Schools hoping to solve the problem with the shortage of Primary Care Physicians, but in final, most of these students will want to become Specialists once their rotations end.
Medicine is not protected, proof? Insurers are trying to destroy this profession.

If the U.S. doesn't increase the number of Residency spots to accomodate the extra students from the new Med Schools (And i don't think they will), it will end up like Australia, which will result in an over supply of Medical Doctors and many will end up unmatched for multiple consecutive times.

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romothesavior
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:59 am

Now that I have Thought more About it, Your points make more Sense. Since the Vast Majority of students at Tier 1 schools will get Six Figure Jobs, And all of Those students will become partner and Make millions of Dollars, I am certain that Law Graduates make more on Average than Med School graduates.

FURTHERmore, It is pretty Clear that law is in High demand right now, whereas the Demand for Medical Services in this Country is in great decline. As the Recession showed, Law Firms are far more Likely to treat their Young Associates with respect than Hospitals, and Lawyers have a Lot of Job Security.

Finally, your Point about how expensive it Is to live in a Big City as a doctor is Spot On. The cost of Living for a Doctor in New York or d.C. is far higher than it is for an Attorney.

Thank you for Your Enlightening, Reasoned, and non-Inflammatory Arguments. Also, I am Quite Stupid. Some people would Call me a Poor Man's gdane.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby UnTouChablE » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:02 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Except that, Julliard or not, getting a music job as a bassoonist to pay off $200k in debt is incredibly unlikely. So, I turned it down (this was back when I was looking at UG institutions - the decision came and went almost 10 years ago, now).

Also, you didn't really 'answer the question.' People say they want to be a lawyer because of any number of reasons - but frequently, many of these reasons rely on actually getting a decent legal job. So, the discussion goes back to chances of getting said decent job.


But your chances are of getting a decent legal job are the same small of chances of getting a job in this economy. I do feel as do you stand a better chance with a law degree with a law degree and more importantly you stand zero chances at a legal job without a law degree. If a legal job is all that can make you happy then you need a law degree. Those are the ppl I want in law schools. I don't think if you can be happy doing something else (reasonably) you shouldn't go to law school.

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romothesavior
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:07 am

UnTouChablE wrote:ITT a pinch of reality and much too much exaggeration and fear-mongering.

Everything is a gamble and law school is a much safer gamble at a chance at 160k than most. But we have way too many lawyers so we need this, anyone that allows themselves to be dissuaded from attending law school by doom and gloom predictions probably would have gotten curve pawned anyway.

TBF, we just had three current law students who say they regret their decision to go to law school. All of them are tier 1 students too, if I recall correctly.

If you think hearing the genuine and heartfelt regrets of three TLS and law school veterans who have been through the law school process is "exaggeration and fear-mongering," then you're doing it wrong. Please, take heed of what they say and carefully consider your decision.

Personally, I really want to be a lawyer and I was willing to take on some debt to do it. I listened to people like these three a year ago, and carefully judged my priorities and decided to take the plunge. Just because you decide not to heed the warnings and the advice doesn't mean you should discard it or not let it affect your decision-making. If it weren't for these "doom and gloom" predictions and the fear-mongering, I'd be paying sticker at a T3 right now with my head in the sand as to what is going on ITE.

And finally, there are MANY people who should be dissuaded from law school, either for financial reasons, career reasons, a lack of interest in law, etc.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby UnTouChablE » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:18 am

xyzbca wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:I think that is the issue we have (feel free to disagree), we have lawyers that never use their law degrees. Rather than scare ppl which is fun to do, we should inform them of what a lawyer does and can reasonable expect to do. That should help prospective students more than fear of the job market. Alot of students do not want to be lawyers, but since they have no idea wtf a lawyer does, they make it up. But you do not go into medicine if you do not like blood, and that is how they keep the profession from overcrowding.

But then we run into the problem of these massive salaries that have the opposite effect as information does. 160,000 right out of school is a heck of an incentive, so I see where all this 'there are no jobs out there for anyone save HYS grads' are coming from. But lets not lose sight of the objective (keeping uninformed, starry eyed wannabes with good gpa's and Lsat scores out of our schools) because I wouldn't want one 'real' law student to wait an additional year because of the job market.

#2 is an unreasonable concern, no one is going to invest that amount of money in something that is not realistic.


Medicine is protected from overcrowding by limiting the number of seats available in MD and DO schools. There are 25,000 yearly residency spots in the US but up until recently, MD and DO schools were graduating about 19,000 new doctors a year. This has nothing to do with informing people of the risks involved or educating people on what being a doctor entails. The AMA and AOA have done a fantastic job of keeping supply tight by guarding the the proverbial gate.


I dont think it is the case, I think if you want to be a doctor you can be one, I dont think the gate keepers stop you. It that we dont have that many ppl that want to be doctors. There is no confusion as to what is expected as a doctor, no one regrets going to med school because they want to be doctors. Even those that make less than expected do not complain (as much) as our disenfranchised lawyer community.

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romothesavior
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:20 am

UnTouChablE wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Except that, Julliard or not, getting a music job as a bassoonist to pay off $200k in debt is incredibly unlikely. So, I turned it down (this was back when I was looking at UG institutions - the decision came and went almost 10 years ago, now).

Also, you didn't really 'answer the question.' People say they want to be a lawyer because of any number of reasons - but frequently, many of these reasons rely on actually getting a decent legal job. So, the discussion goes back to chances of getting said decent job.


But your chances are of getting a decent legal job are the same small of chances of getting a job in this economy. I do feel as do you stand a better chance with a law degree with a law degree and more importantly you stand zero chances at a legal job without a law degree. If a legal job is all that can make you happy then you need a law degree. Those are the ppl I want in law schools. I don't think if you can be happy doing something else (reasonably) you shouldn't go to law school.


Just a few quick points before I get back to property.

1. I understand that LS is where people who want to be lawyers go. But there is a point where it becomes a bad decision, whether you like it or not. Would you say someone should go to a TTTT at sticker and have a ~10% chance of getting any sort of legal job? Would you tell someone who wants to win the lottery to bet the house on it? At some point, the odds of meaningful legal employment are so low that they do not justify the expense. And does being a lawyer outweigh all the other things in your life? Would it be worth ruining your future family's financial security so you can make 30k working low-level insurance defense?

2. You can be a paralegal without a law degree.

3. It is true that the economy sucks in general, but look at it this way: I saw a posting for a manager position at a Family Video last week. Starting salary is 30,000, and you wouldn't need an advanced degree (or even a college degree) to do it. Many law graduates start out at 30,000-40,000 (most actually). Say you are spending $60,000 a year to go to law school. That is a net loss of $90,000 a year, and you could very well start out making the same amount that you could have made when you graduated.

4. Finally, with everything I just said, you might say, "Hey Romo... why don't you practice what you preach? Why are you in law school?" The reason is the same as the one you just made: I want to be a lawyer, it is what I would enjoy, and it is what best suits my skill set. I was willing to take on some risk, and I know it isn't going to lead to megabucks when I graduate. So I was willing to go. But I also know that there is a point where it would not have been worth it. I am going to a T20 in the market I want to practice in on a large scholarship, and even then it was still a gut-wrenching decision. A lot of people on TLS think I made a poor decision. The people who go to schools like America and Seton Hall at sticker just astound me. As I said, there is a point where it is not worth it. So listen to what people are saying and make a very careful decision with your future.

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mpasi
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby mpasi » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:22 am

UnTouChablE wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Except that, Julliard or not, getting a music job as a bassoonist to pay off $200k in debt is incredibly unlikely. So, I turned it down (this was back when I was looking at UG institutions - the decision came and went almost 10 years ago, now).

Also, you didn't really 'answer the question.' People say they want to be a lawyer because of any number of reasons - but frequently, many of these reasons rely on actually getting a decent legal job. So, the discussion goes back to chances of getting said decent job.


But your chances are of getting a decent legal job are the same small of chances of getting a job in this economy. I do feel as do you stand a better chance with a law degree with a law degree and more importantly you stand zero chances at a legal job without a law degree. If a legal job is all that can make you happy then you need a law degree. Those are the ppl I want in law schools. I don't think if you can be happy doing something else (reasonably) you shouldn't go to law school.



What's going to happen to the people who went to law school to wait out the crappy economy?

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IAFG
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby IAFG » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:23 am

mpasi wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Except that, Julliard or not, getting a music job as a bassoonist to pay off $200k in debt is incredibly unlikely. So, I turned it down (this was back when I was looking at UG institutions - the decision came and went almost 10 years ago, now).

Also, you didn't really 'answer the question.' People say they want to be a lawyer because of any number of reasons - but frequently, many of these reasons rely on actually getting a decent legal job. So, the discussion goes back to chances of getting said decent job.


But your chances are of getting a decent legal job are the same small of chances of getting a job in this economy. I do feel as do you stand a better chance with a law degree with a law degree and more importantly you stand zero chances at a legal job without a law degree. If a legal job is all that can make you happy then you need a law degree. Those are the ppl I want in law schools. I don't think if you can be happy doing something else (reasonably) you shouldn't go to law school.



What's going to happen to the people who went to law school to wait out the crappy economy?

contribute to the education arms race. a doctorate for every starbucks barista! MBA for every roofer!

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JazzOne
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby JazzOne » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:23 am

romothesavior wrote:I am going to a T20 in the market I want to practice in on a large scholarship, and even then it was still a gut-wrenching decision.

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mpasi
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby mpasi » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:29 am

IAFG wrote:
mpasi wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Except that, Julliard or not, getting a music job as a bassoonist to pay off $200k in debt is incredibly unlikely. So, I turned it down (this was back when I was looking at UG institutions - the decision came and went almost 10 years ago, now).

Also, you didn't really 'answer the question.' People say they want to be a lawyer because of any number of reasons - but frequently, many of these reasons rely on actually getting a decent legal job. So, the discussion goes back to chances of getting said decent job.


But your chances are of getting a decent legal job are the same small of chances of getting a job in this economy. I do feel as do you stand a better chance with a law degree with a law degree and more importantly you stand zero chances at a legal job without a law degree. If a legal job is all that can make you happy then you need a law degree. Those are the ppl I want in law schools. I don't think if you can be happy doing something else (reasonably) you shouldn't go to law school.



What's going to happen to the people who went to law school to wait out the crappy economy?

contribute to the education arms race. a doctorate for every starbucks barista! MBA for every roofer!


Jokes like that in this economy aren't funny. :|

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IAFG
Posts: 6665
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Re: 30,000 legal jobs per year?

Postby IAFG » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:29 am

mpasi wrote:
IAFG wrote:contribute to the education arms race. a doctorate for every starbucks barista! MBA for every roofer!


Jokes like that in this economy aren't funny. :|

true - you can't get a job roofing




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