How bad IS it at WashUStl? Forum

[stratocophic]

A very good friend is a top 25% 3L at WUSTL and is frantically applying to state clerkships around the country. From what he's told me, he's far from the exception.

Everyone knows how bad last year was. This year wasn't much better, but what do you people expect? It's not Harvard. It's not even GTTTown. 25% was nearing the bottom of WUSTL's range of people that could grade into Biglaw during boom. You're not telling anyone anything they don't know, with the possible exception of the misinformed and ignorant.

Don't see what you're saying here. Top 5-10% at almost any t1 school is gonna have a good chance to get something in any major market.

Im saying the person who is between top 5-10% from there is not going to be getting biglaw in LA or san fran or Texas or anything that is relatively far because it doesnt have national reach.

This statement outs you as a 0L/1L with little understanding of legal hiring. Note that you are in the Legal Employment forum.

Contrary to longstanding TLS 0L wisdom, the quality of your law school isn't that strongly correlated with its "national reach." Where in the country you can get a job is largely determined by the combination of your school rank and your grades, and your personal ties.

You tell us that national reach isn't correlated with "quality", but then go on to tell us that it is correlated with "rank", which serves quid pro quo for quality on this board. I'm confused as to what you were trying to illuminate.

His point is that whether you CAN get a job in LA =/= how easy it will be to do so

[Aqualibrium]

The top 25 schools (by placement) account for about 3,500 of 4,500 NLJ250 jobs. The lower T1 is then fighting with the T2 for the remaining 1,000 jobs. There are about 2,000 students in the lower T1/T2 who are in the top 10% of their class...

I didn't say top 5-10% at a t1 is a guarantee of anything. I instead said students in that range have a good chance. I don't think there are any stats that will debunk that, as it is a totally accurate statement.

[worldtraveler]

Flame.

Things aren't that bad. I'm sure the top half of the class will get jobs at least... probably even more. Things probably aren't as great as they once were, but it isn't at the level where 5-10% of people get jobs.

Try to be thoughtful - and reasonable - when throwing numbers out there.

Jobs... yes. Legal jobs? maybe. Biglaw jobs? not even close

From what I've heard (do not quote me);

Top 5-10%: National BIGLAW

10-25%: Chicago and midwestern MIDLAW

25-50%: legalaid, etc.

Hardly anyone gets legal aid jobs straight out of law school. Those come through fellowships because the funding is so low.

[Anonymous User]

Flame.

Things aren't that bad. I'm sure the top half of the class will get jobs at least... probably even more. Things probably aren't as great as they once were, but it isn't at the level where 5-10% of people get jobs.

Try to be thoughtful - and reasonable - when throwing numbers out there.

Jobs... yes. Legal jobs? maybe. Biglaw jobs? not even close

From what I've heard (do not quote me);

Top 5-10%: National BIGLAW
10-25%: Chicago and midwestern MIDLAW

25-50%: legalaid, etc.

Bolded is what im curious about.... i mean top 5-10% is good i just dont really see it as a school that can place far from its region...

and by that I only mean a few in Boston, a few in D.C., and one in LA

So, I actually go to WUSTL. A lot of the stuff on this board is written by people who don't have any idea what they're talking about. There are people up and down the top 33% of the class with offers at DC, NYC, and Chicago biglaw, all up and down the vault rankings. The one market that's reasonably difficult to break into is California. Other than that, you can get biglaw jobs pretty much anywhere. If you're outside the top 10%, is it more difficult? Of course it is. No one is going to claim that median or top 25% of the class at WUSTL will be able to place as well on average as median at Harvard. But nobody is really expecting that either. But that said, to say that the top 10-25% only get midlaw and the right of the class is out of luck is just ridiculous.

[stratocophic]

Jobs... yes. Legal jobs? maybe. Biglaw jobs? not even close

From what I've heard (do not quote me);

Top 5-10%: National BIGLAW
10-25%: Chicago and midwestern MIDLAW

25-50%: legalaid, etc.

Bolded is what im curious about.... i mean top 5-10% is good i just dont really see it as a school that can place far from its region...

and by that I only mean a few in Boston, a few in D.C., and one in LA

So, I actually go to WUSTL. A lot of the stuff on this board is written by people who don't have any idea what they're talking about. There are people up and down the top 33% of the class with offers at DC, NYC, and Chicago biglaw, all up and down the vault rankings. The one market that's reasonably difficult to break into is California. Other than that, you can get biglaw jobs pretty much anywhere. If you're outside the top 10%, is it more difficult? Of course it is. No one is going to claim that median or top 25% of the class at WUSTL will be able to place as well on average as median at Harvard. But nobody is really expecting that either. But that said, to say that the top 10-25% only get midlaw and the right of the class is out of luck is just ridiculous.

Mind PM'ing me?

[Big Shrimpin]

The top 25 schools (by placement) account for about 3,500 of 4,500 NLJ250 jobs. The lower T1 is then fighting with the T2 for the remaining 1,000 jobs. There are about 2,000 students in the lower T1/T2 who are in the top 10% of their class...

VERY interesting fact. If true, this should be printed on flyers and distributed to prospective 0Ls as they tour schools.

[Anonymous User]

The top 25 schools (by placement) account for about 3,500 of 4,500 NLJ250 jobs. The lower T1 is then fighting with the T2 for the remaining 1,000 jobs. There are about 2,000 students in the lower T1/T2 who are in the top 10% of their class...

VERY interesting fact. If true, this should be printed on flyers and distributed to prospective 0Ls as they tour schools.

True dat. Anyone know what the top 25 schools are, by placement? I imagine t20 + 5 from 21-~35.

[rayiner]

The top 25 schools (by placement) account for about 3,500 of 4,500 NLJ250 jobs. The lower T1 is then fighting with the T2 for the remaining 1,000 jobs. There are about 2,000 students in the lower T1/T2 who are in the top 10% of their class...

I didn't say top 5-10% at a t1 is a guarantee of anything. I instead said students in that range have a good chance. I don't think there are any stats that will debunk that, as it is a totally accurate statement.

I don't think it's even a good chance at the bottom of the T50 (Alabama, Tulane, etc). My figures are highly optimistic --- assuming nobody outside the top 10% gets an NLJ250 job, assuming nobody in the T3/T4 gets an NLJ250 job, etc.

I think statistically, more people in the top 10% at these schools will strike out than not. I don't think that's a good chance.

[Anonymous User]

The top 25 schools (by placement) account for about 3,500 of 4,500 NLJ250 jobs. The lower T1 is then fighting with the T2 for the remaining 1,000 jobs. There are about 2,000 students in the lower T1/T2 who are in the top 10% of their class...

I didn't say top 5-10% at a t1 is a guarantee of anything. I instead said students in that range have a good chance. I don't think there are any stats that will debunk that, as it is a totally accurate statement.

I don't think it's even a good chance at the bottom of the T50 (Alabama, Tulane, etc). My figures are highly optimistic --- assuming nobody outside the top 10% gets an NLJ250 job, assuming nobody in the T3/T4 gets an NLJ250 job, etc.

I think statistically, more people in the top 10% at these schools will strike out than not. I don't think that's a good chance.

is WUSTL a good chance if it's the best school you get into, and they give you $?

[rayiner]

The top 25 schools (by placement) account for about 3,500 of 4,500 NLJ250 jobs. The lower T1 is then fighting with the T2 for the remaining 1,000 jobs. There are about 2,000 students in the lower T1/T2 who are in the top 10% of their class...

VERY interesting fact. If true, this should be printed on flyers and distributed to prospective 0Ls as they tour schools.

True dat. Anyone know what the top 25 schools are, by placement? I imagine t20 + 5 from 21-~35.

T21 + BU + ND + BC + Fordham.

[rayiner]

is WUSTL a good chance if it's the best school you get into, and they give you $?

If you're top 15% sure. There is a very good chance though that you won't get those grades.

If by "good shot" you mean "more likely than not" I don't think anything outside the T13 gives you a "good shot". Even then, if you mean "substantially more likely than not" you wanna be at a T6.

[Blindmelon]

25-50%: legalaid, etc.

Hah. Legal aid work (other than volunteer) is often ridiculously competitive unless you're in the middle of absolute no where. You guys also realize that even in the boom times WUSTL never rocked biglaw - it usually lagged behind the other T25 schools at like 25-30%.

[Anonymous User]

is WUSTL a good chance if it's the best school you get into, and they give you $?

If you're top 15% sure. There is a very good chance though that you won't get those grades.

If by "good shot" you mean "more likely than not" I don't think anything outside the T13 gives you a "good shot". Even then, if you mean "substantially more likely than not" you wanna be at a T6.

not really talking about BIGLAW; so yeah, where do median kids get jobs from wustl?

[005618502]

is WUSTL a good chance if it's the best school you get into, and they give you $?

If you're top 15% sure. There is a very good chance though that you won't get those grades.

If by "good shot" you mean "more likely than not" I don't think anything outside the T13 gives you a "good shot". Even then, if you mean "substantially more likely than not" you wanna be at a T6.

not really talking about BIGLAW; so yeah, where do median kids get jobs from wustl?

I love how this hasnt been answered since the thread started.....

How about the claimed student? wanna answer whats happening to median students...

[RVP11]

is WUSTL a good chance if it's the best school you get into, and they give you $?

If you're top 15% sure. There is a very good chance though that you won't get those grades.

If by "good shot" you mean "more likely than not" I don't think anything outside the T13 gives you a "good shot". Even then, if you mean "substantially more likely than not" you wanna be at a T6.

not really talking about BIGLAW; so yeah, where do median kids get jobs from wustl?

I love how this hasnt been answered since the thread started.....

How about the claimed student? wanna answer whats happening to median students...

Apparently you've been accepted to UVA. Why are you dying to know the (probably terrible) fate of people who are median at WUSTL?

[Anonymous User]

fwiw i go to wustl. In july, the career center told me top 1/3 has a decent chance at jobs through oci. Told me there will be a hug diff between top 1/3 and non top 1/3

Looking around and talking to classmates. I think prob 1/4th to 1/5 of the kids have decent SA positions or nice gov positions.

[005618502]

Apparently you've been accepted to UVA. Why are you dying to know the (probably terrible) fate of people who are median at WUSTL?

Im always curious about schools employment statistics and how things are doing (hoping to hear students talking about OCI turning around somewhat)

[Anonymous User]

fwiw i go to wustl. In july, the career center told me top 1/3 has a decent chance at jobs through oci. Told me there will be a hug diff between top 1/3 and non top 1/3

Looking around and talking to classmates. I think prob 1/4th to 1/5 of the kids have decent SA positions or nice gov positions.

what are the other 3/4th kids doing?

[Anonymous User]

fwiw i go to wustl. In july, the career center told me top 1/3 has a decent chance at jobs through oci. Told me there will be a hug diff between top 1/3 and non top 1/3

Looking around and talking to classmates. I think prob 1/4th to 1/5 of the kids have decent SA positions or nice gov positions.

what are the other 3/4th kids doing?

some clerk for judges. Others go on "international law" internships. Most will find really small firms to intern for.

[nealric]

This statement outs you as a 0L/1L with little understanding of legal hiring. Note that you are in the Legal Employment forum.

Contrary to longstanding TLS 0L wisdom, the quality of your law school isn't that strongly correlated with its "national reach." Where in the country you can get a job is largely determined by the combination of your school rank and your grades, and your personal ties.

Examples:

If you've never been to Chicago in your life, attending Duke is not going to help you break into that market (perhaps barring you getting incredible grades) just because it's a T14 and is seen as a school with "national reach."

If you were born and raised in Denver, attending WUSTL is not going to prevent you (provided you have the grades) from coming back to a big firm in Denver just because it's not T14 and supposedly lacks "national reach."

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. You say the quality of law school isn't correlated with "national reach", but then say that portability is dependent on school rank.

I am a law school graduate starting biglaw in a few weeks. I also went to college in Colorado and have family in the legal industry there. I can say pretty confidently that attending WUSTL would be a terrible idea for someone seeking Colorado employment- even if they born and raised there. Yeah, they want locals, but they also do the vast majority of their recruiting from either local schools or elite schools (of which WUSTL isn't considered one). And going to Duke would definitely give you a much better shot at Chicago biglaw than a local Chicago T2- even if you have few ties to the city. Chicago isn't THAT insular (especially compared to Denver).


RE WUSTL specifically. I think the school is a tough niche. It has become almost as hard to get into as schools like Vandy (which has very good placement), but doesn't have enough prestige to be considered an elite job go-to school. It places like some of the better placing T2s, but your competition for grades will be almost T14 caliber. A WUSTL person who transferred to GULC told me that he went to out of town job interviews where the interviewer seriously asked him if the school was accredited. None of this is intended to offend WUSTL people- it's a fine school educationally, and some very smart people go there. It's just unfortunate that it is under-appreciated by employers.

[romothesavior]

If your idea of LS employment is biglaw or bust, it is probably not the place to be. Top third will give you a fighting shot at biglaw, but you really need to be in the top 1/5 or so to have a realistic chance (or be a URM).

With that said, it is my impression (with limited 1L knowledge) that most people at WUSTL end up with something in the legal field. Most 2Ls and 3Ls have told me that you can get a job, thought it may not be the job you want and it may take you a while to find it. But yeah, things are rough and people are stressed.

[Anonymous User]

Also a student at WUSTL, current 2l... can say that it is entirely possible in the top third, particularly top 20ish% to get biglaw in major markets. I know several going to chicago big law, at least a few going to DC, some New York. A number of Texas firms did our OCI and gave callbacks/made some offers.. California is undoubtedly more difficult, but otherwise wash u seems to place fairly well.

Outside of that, it's tough. St. Louis firms aren't taking many summer associates at all. Median people are probably in a bad place right now, and of the few that I've heard from, some are taking non-paying 2L jobs. It's hard to know how people are doing at the median because most people at the median aren't going to be actively trying to discuss the job situation, and it's difficult if you have a job to talk to someone who doesn't.

[Anonymous User]

he went to out of town job interviews where the interviewer seriously asked him if the school was accredited

Damn, what do you say to that? I thought it was bad enough when an interviewer looked at my transcript and said "[Your school] gives A-pluses?" with a half-disgusted look on his face.

[nealric]

Damn, what do you say to that? I thought it was bad enough when an interviewer looked at my transcript and said "[Your school] gives A-pluses?" with a half-disgusted look on his face.

He didn't go into more detail than that- he was just explaining why he decided to transfer.

FWIW: GULC gives A+ too now, but they don't do anything for your GPA (i.e. they still count the same as regular A's) and are almost never awarded. They are just a gold star.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah I feel like its idiotic to look down on a school that gives A-pluses to allow further differentiation of high-performing students while slobbering over students from schools that don't even give out grades

Then again, if NFL teams recruited like law firms, you would take an average player from Alabama or Florida in the first round simply because the player went to a powerhouse school