1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

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patrickd139
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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:34 am

vamedic03 wrote:I'll disagree with all the above posters for the following reasons:

1) I have serious questions about a firm with an unpaid 1L internship and its sketchy that an American firm is operating outside of the NALP guidelines to offer an unpaid internship.

2) Outside of judicial externships, there are lots of other great options for 1L summer - DA's offices, Public Interest organizations, USAO's, etc.

3) 1L summer is your chance to do something that's NOT a firm - if you're interest/set on Big Law, you should take the opportunity your 1L summer to do something that's not BigLaw. Likewise, if you have any inkling that you might want to do public interest / public service down the road, it'd be good to have something legal and NOT biglaw on your resume.

4) Correct me if I'm wrong, but a US to HK ticket is pretty damn expensive ticket; and, a firm has to be really, really friggin' cheap to not only have an unpaid internship but require you to buy the ticket.

Again, I have serious qualms with an American firm offering an unpaid internship.

1) It's out of the country. Not sure if you caught the OP's posts, but it's also DLA Piper. They're kind of a big deal. Paid or unpaid, this is a great opportunity. If for no other reason, observing the biglaw culture in a foreign country >>>>>>>>>> any unpaid internship experience in the U.S.

2) None of those are as prestigious or difficult to get as what OP has been offered. You can always go DLA Piper-->DA's office/PI/USAO/wherever. The arrow does not go the other way.

3) See 2, supra.

4) OP has family there, so, presumably, s/he'll have free housing. It's really far in the future, so a good deal can be had if OP pays attention and shops around. Cost of living alone in the states during the summer will run at least as much as the price of a ticket to HK and back. Plus, OP wouldn't have "Summer 2011: DLA Piper, Hong Kong Branch" on his/her resume.

Again, it's DLA Piper. And it's NALP. GS sums up my feelings on this perfectly.

GodSpeed wrote:no one cares.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby vamedic03 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:44 am

patrickd139 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:I'll disagree with all the above posters for the following reasons:

1) I have serious questions about a firm with an unpaid 1L internship and its sketchy that an American firm is operating outside of the NALP guidelines to offer an unpaid internship.

2) Outside of judicial externships, there are lots of other great options for 1L summer - DA's offices, Public Interest organizations, USAO's, etc.

3) 1L summer is your chance to do something that's NOT a firm - if you're interest/set on Big Law, you should take the opportunity your 1L summer to do something that's not BigLaw. Likewise, if you have any inkling that you might want to do public interest / public service down the road, it'd be good to have something legal and NOT biglaw on your resume.

4) Correct me if I'm wrong, but a US to HK ticket is pretty damn expensive ticket; and, a firm has to be really, really friggin' cheap to not only have an unpaid internship but require you to buy the ticket.

Again, I have serious qualms with an American firm offering an unpaid internship.

1) It's out of the country. Not sure if you caught the OP's posts, but it's also DLA Piper. They're kind of a big deal. Paid or unpaid, this is a great opportunity. If for no other reason, observing the biglaw culture in a foreign country >>>>>>>>>> any unpaid internship experience in the U.S.

2) None of those are as prestigious or difficult to get as what OP has been offered. You can always go DLA Piper-->DA's office/PI/USAO/wherever. The arrow does not go the other way.

3) See 2, supra.

4) OP has family there, so, presumably, s/he'll have free housing. It's really far in the future, so a good deal can be had if OP pays attention and shops around. Cost of living alone in the states during the summer will run at least as much as the price of a ticket to HK and back. Plus, OP wouldn't have "Summer 2011: DLA Piper, Hong Kong Branch" on his/her resume.
]


1) I caught on that it was DLA Piper - I'm not impressed. Its a good firm, but its not a great firm. And unpaid internship at a biglaw firm = sketchy. Also, you're snarkiness about DLA Piper is wasted on me since I'm a 2L, have been through OCI, and am well aware of general firm reputations.

2) You're wrong on this. This isn't a summer associate position as its not paid. Plenty of people do 1L summers at PI/Government/Public Service and then go on to BigLaw. I don't know anyone who did an UNPAID BigLaw internship.

3) You're wrong again, see my #2.

4) Unpaid internship at DLA Piper is not more prestigious than stateside public service internships.

In reference to your last line - it's DLA Piper and its NALP which means they should be complying with NALP guidelines (we're pre-12/1) and they should possibly comply with US FLSA. Its sketchy when an American firm, with an American student (presumption) enter into an internship agreement, partially negotiated in the US, that violates US labor laws. Not saying its illegal, but its sketchy and its unlikely to lead to a paid position.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:01 am

vamedic03 wrote:1) I caught on that it was DLA Piper - I'm not impressed. Its a good firm, but its not a great firm. And unpaid internship at a biglaw firm = sketchy. Also, you're snarkiness about DLA Piper is wasted on me since I'm a 2L, have been through OCI, and am well aware of general firm reputations.

2) You're wrong on this. This isn't a summer associate position as its not paid. Plenty of people do 1L summers at PI/Government/Public Service and then go on to BigLaw. I don't know anyone who did an UNPAID BigLaw internship.

3) You're wrong again, see my #2.

4) Unpaid internship at DLA Piper is not more prestigious than stateside public service internships.

In reference to your last line - it's DLA Piper and its NALP which means they should be complying with NALP guidelines (we're pre-12/1) and they should possibly comply with US FLSA. Its sketchy when an American firm, with an American student (presumption) enter into an internship agreement, partially negotiated in the US, that violates US labor laws. Not saying its illegal, but its sketchy and its unlikely to lead to a paid position.


Feeling kind of snarky tonight :oops: ; not sure why.

1) Since you're aware of firms' reputations, I'm surprised you don't back this plan. Biglaw experience your 1L summer can be a huge resume line, if for nothing else, then the things it signals. Several friends whose grades tanked second semester but who still ended up with 2L SA gigs anecdotally lend credence this.

2) We don't know whether this is for SA work or other work. Either way, OP will put the firm, the fact that it was an internship, and the date on the resume and have an excellent conversation ready-made for 2L OCI. How many interviewers asked if/how much you were paid your first summer? None, here. But "let me tell you about my summer with a major international law firm in Hong Kong" will probably make good conversation. Probably.

2a) Your friends who did PI/Government/Public Service and went biglaw were lucky. Not saying it can't be done. There are a miniscule number of 3Ls who somehow land biglaw every year. I'm simply saying that having this particular resume line will open doors that PI/Govt./Public Service won't. Not that there's no other way to open those doors.

3) Gonna drop this one at this point for redundancy's sake.

4) There may be some stateside public service internships that are more prestigious than an unpaid DLA internship, but the vast majority of public service internships are not that way. Plus, there's the 'bird in the hand' argument so astutely made previously. OP doesn't have one of those prestigious public service internships right now.

It sounds like this is a personal connection type of deal, not an established program. Nothing prevents students from reaching out to personal contacts in firms and negotiating some sort of agreement like this. Especially when you consider the magnitude of setting this all up (hard to do in a short time-frame like one semester). Plus, I'm sure DLA will end up covering its ass legally and paying the OP a pittance. That's how other "nominal internship" programs stateside work. See, e.g. SNR Denton.

If that fails, there's always the "if the tree falls and no one hears it" argument that I don't necessarily condone, nor condemn. Bottom line: I think this is a great opportunity for the OP and, if it were me, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Edit: I'm grammar incompetent.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby azukibeanlove » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:07 am

patrickd139 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:1) I caught on that it was DLA Piper - I'm not impressed. Its a good firm, but its not a great firm. And unpaid internship at a biglaw firm = sketchy. Also, you're snarkiness about DLA Piper is wasted on me since I'm a 2L, have been through OCI, and am well aware of general firm reputations.

2) You're wrong on this. This isn't a summer associate position as its not paid. Plenty of people do 1L summers at PI/Government/Public Service and then go on to BigLaw. I don't know anyone who did an UNPAID BigLaw internship.

3) You're wrong again, see my #2.

4) Unpaid internship at DLA Piper is not more prestigious than stateside public service internships.

In reference to your last line - it's DLA Piper and its NALP which means they should be complying with NALP guidelines (we're pre-12/1) and they should possibly comply with US FLSA. Its sketchy when an American firm, with an American student (presumption) enter into an internship agreement, partially negotiated in the US, that violates US labor laws. Not saying its illegal, but its sketchy and its unlikely to lead to a paid position.


Feeling kind of snarky tonight :oops: ; not sure why.

1) Since you're aware of firms' reputations, I'm surprised you don't back this plan. Biglaw experience your 1L summer can be a huge resume line, if for nothing else, then the things it signals. Several friends whose grades tanked second semester but who still ended up with 2L SA gigs anecdotally lend credence this.

2) We don't know whether this is for SA work or other work. Either way, OP will put the firm, the fact that it was an internship, and the date on the resume and have an excellent conversation ready-made for 2L OCI. How many interviewers asked if/how much you were paid your first summer? None, here. But "let me tell you about my summer with a major international law firm in Hong Kong" will probably make good conversation. Probably.

2a) Your friends who did PI/Government/Public Service and went biglaw were lucky. Not saying it can't be done. There are a miniscule number of 3Ls who somehow land biglaw every year. I'm simply saying that having this particular resume line will open doors that PI/Govt./Public Service won't. Not that there's no other way to open those doors.

3) Gonna drop this one at this point for redundancy's sake.

4) There may be some stateside public service internships that are more prestigious than an unpaid DLA internship, but the vast majority of public service internships are not that way. Plus, there's the 'bird in the hand' argument so astutely made previously. OP doesn't have one of those prestigious public service internships right now.

It sounds like this is a personal connection type of deal, not an established program. Nothing prevents students from reaching out to personal contacts in firms and negotiating some sort of agreement like this. Especially when you consider the magnitude of setting this all up (hard to do in a short time-frame like one semester). Plus, I'm sure DLA will end up covering its ass legally and paying the OP a pittance. That's how other "nominal internship" programs stateside work. See, e.g. SNR Denton.

If that fails, there's always the "if the tree falls and no one hears it" argument that I don't necessarily condone, nor condemn. Bottom line: I think this is a great opportunity for the OP and, if it were me, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Edit: I'm grammar incompetent.


I'm going to have to agree with this post. It's not an official program, as I stated over and over again - it's an alum trying to reach out to us because he wants to help students from his schools, which is why I never expected to get paid, and will not try to negotiate. I'm not even in a position to negotiate anyway, since I'm a 1L and am grateful for this rare opportunity. The reason why I was considered for this position is because of my extensive background studying in HK.

I met with the Career Services representative at my school, and she said it's a fine offer and will look great on my resume. A judicial externship is a very foundational position, whereas a firm internship, even unpaid, will distinguish an applicant among a pool of many. Granted, if I were interested in a judicial career, then a firm job might not be the best choice. But I have already had experience with the public sector by working at the PD's Office (albeit as an undergrad), so want to try something totally different.

I think if this is in any way a gross violation, the Career Services Office would tell me to step back. Yet she was the one who told me about this contact, and told me to send HER the resume (as opposed to me contacting the employer directly).

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby vamedic03 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:19 am

patrickd139 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:1) I caught on that it was DLA Piper - I'm not impressed. Its a good firm, but its not a great firm. And unpaid internship at a biglaw firm = sketchy. Also, you're snarkiness about DLA Piper is wasted on me since I'm a 2L, have been through OCI, and am well aware of general firm reputations.

2) You're wrong on this. This isn't a summer associate position as its not paid. Plenty of people do 1L summers at PI/Government/Public Service and then go on to BigLaw. I don't know anyone who did an UNPAID BigLaw internship.

3) You're wrong again, see my #2.

4) Unpaid internship at DLA Piper is not more prestigious than stateside public service internships.

In reference to your last line - it's DLA Piper and its NALP which means they should be complying with NALP guidelines (we're pre-12/1) and they should possibly comply with US FLSA. Its sketchy when an American firm, with an American student (presumption) enter into an internship agreement, partially negotiated in the US, that violates US labor laws. Not saying its illegal, but its sketchy and its unlikely to lead to a paid position.


Feeling kind of snarky tonight :oops: ; not sure why.

1) Since you're aware of firms' reputations, I'm surprised you don't back this plan. Biglaw experience your 1L summer can be a huge resume line, if for nothing else, then the things it signals. Several friends whose grades tanked second semester but who still ended up with 2L SA gigs anecdotally lend credence this.

2) We don't know whether this is for SA work or other work. Either way, OP will put the firm, the fact that it was an internship, and the date on the resume and have an excellent conversation ready-made for 2L OCI. How many interviewers asked if/how much you were paid your first summer? None, here. But "let me tell you about my summer with a major international law firm in Hong Kong" will probably make good conversation. Probably.

2a) Your friends who did PI/Government/Public Service and went biglaw were lucky. Not saying it can't be done. There are a miniscule number of 3Ls who somehow land biglaw every year. I'm simply saying that having this particular resume line will open doors that PI/Govt./Public Service won't. Not that there's no other way to open those doors.

3) Gonna drop this one at this point for redundancy's sake.

4) There may be some stateside public service internships that are more prestigious than an unpaid DLA internship, but the vast majority of public service internships are not that way. Plus, there's the 'bird in the hand' argument so astutely made previously. OP doesn't have one of those prestigious public service internships right now.


Edit: I'm grammar incompetent.


I take big issue with these points:

You're absolutely wrong about people doing public service 1L year being 'lucky' to get an SA for 2L year. The vast majority of the people that I know at my T-14 did either public service, RA, or judicial externship their 1L summer and the vast majority of them have 2L SA jobs lined up. A fair number of them have V5 and V10 or other prestigious DC/NY firms lined up for next summer.

Also, I really don't see the unpaid DLA Piper internship as prestigious, let alone more prestigious than many public service / public interest positions.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:31 am

vamedic03 wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:2a) Your friends who did PI/Government/Public Service and went biglaw were lucky. Not saying it can't be done. There are a miniscule number of 3Ls who somehow land biglaw every year. I'm simply saying that having this particular resume line will open doors that PI/Govt./Public Service won't. Not that there's no other way to open those doors.


4) There may be some stateside public service internships that are more prestigious than an unpaid DLA internship, but the vast majority of public service internships are not that way. Plus, there's the 'bird in the hand' argument so astutely made previously. OP doesn't have one of those prestigious public service internships right now.


I take big issue with these points:

You're absolutely wrong about people doing public service 1L year being 'lucky' to get an SA for 2L year. The vast majority of the people that I know at my T-14 did either public service, RA, or judicial externship their 1L summer and the vast majority of them have 2L SA jobs lined up. A fair number of them have V5 and V10 or other prestigious DC/NY firms lined up for next summer.

Also, I really don't see the unpaid DLA Piper internship as prestigious, let alone more prestigious than many public service / public interest positions.


You're at a T14. Unless I'm mistaken, OP is not. That matters.

Again, contrary to the thread title, OP doesn't have a prestigious public service/public interest position lined up to choose from. Plus, at last one hiring attorney at law firms has already weighed in on this (and OP's CSO seems to agree with that attorney): it sets OP apart as an applicant. Further, (and this is just my personal opinion) I think you're grossly underestimating the sheer intrinsic value of experience at a major law firm (in any capacity) in a foreign country.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby Sup Kid » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:54 am

I met with the Career Services representative at my school, and she said it's a fine offer and will look great on my resume. A judicial externship is a very foundational position, whereas a firm internship, even unpaid, will distinguish an applicant among a pool of many. Granted, if I were interested in a judicial career, then a firm job might not be the best choice. But I have already had experience with the public sector by working at the PD's Office (albeit as an undergrad), so want to try something totally different.

I think if this is in any way a gross violation, the Career Services Office would tell me to step back. Yet she was the one who told me about this contact, and told me to send HER the resume (as opposed to me contacting the employer directly).


So your career services rep is not only meeting with you about applying for 1Ls jobs (specifically at a NALP firm) before 12/1, but is actively encouraging it and helping you get it?? While I realize that NALP has no "police powers" this looks extremely bad not only for DLA Piper, but also for your school, if word gets out. I recommend just taking the job and ending this thread, to keep it from going any further. 1L positions mean much less than grades anyways, so go study for finals and good luck.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby drdolittle » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:03 am

This "job" would sound better if you definitely wanted to end up there, or Asia in general. It seems like you have reservations about it though, despite what you heard from Career Serv. I think the danger of it being a waste of your time, since it doesn't appear to be a formal program or anything, is big enough to think twice before committing unless you wouldn't mind hanging out there for the summer regardless.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:40 am

ROFL@the direction this thread is taken.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby RVP11 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:11 am

patrickd139 wrote:Not sure if you caught the OP's posts, but it's also DLA Piper. They're kind of a big deal.

Plus, OP wouldn't have "Summer 2011: DLA Piper, Hong Kong Branch" on his/her resume.

Again, it's DLA Piper. And it's NALP.



Quoted for posterity.

I thought you were being sarcastic at first, but now I realize you're not.
Last edited by RVP11 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby RVP11 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:13 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:ROFL@the direction this thread is taken.


DUDE, IT'S DLA PIPER!!! ELITE BIGLAW!

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby pinkzeppelin » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:25 am

patrickd139 wrote:It's really far in the future, so a good deal can be had if OP pays attention and shops around.


Using PRICELINE?!!!!

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:33 am

RVP11 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:ROFL@the direction this thread is taken.


DUDE, IT'S DLA PIPER!!! ELITE BIGLAW!


Have you heard - the legal job market isn't that great right now, and any possible advantage going in to OCI is a good thing to have? I mean, I know some people might not be aware of the current state of the economy, so I figured I'd be helpful and throw this out there.

But seriously - You're a fucking idiot if you think that having any biglaw gig on your resume going in to OCI isn't going to be helpful. Are you a 0L? Have you ever interviewed for any kind of legal job before? Edit: Based on your username, I'm just going to go ahead and assume that you're a 3L who is just daft.

DLA Piper isn't Cravath. But it's also not a "40% of the people I've interviewed today have this" judicial externship. It is a biglaw gig - a gig that the vast majority of law students out kill in order to obtain. Christ, some people in this thread need a reality check.

Oh, and in before "lol enjoy DLA Piper" (the implication being that I'm defending the firm I'm going to be working for) - because it isn't accurate.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:38 am

pinkzeppelin wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:It's really far in the future, so a good deal can be had if OP pays attention and shops around.


Using PRICELINE?!!!!

'tar is supposed to be Denny Crane, but yeah, that works too...

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby vamedic03 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:47 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:ROFL@the direction this thread is taken.


DUDE, IT'S DLA PIPER!!! ELITE BIGLAW!


Have you heard - the legal job market isn't that great right now, and any possible advantage going in to OCI is a good thing to have? I mean, I know some people might not be aware of the current state of the economy, so I figured I'd be helpful and throw this out there.

But seriously - You're a fucking idiot if you think that having any biglaw gig on your resume going in to OCI isn't going to be helpful. Are you a 0L? Have you ever interviewed for any kind of legal job before? Edit: Based on your username, I'm just going to go ahead and assume that you're a 3L who is just daft.

DLA Piper isn't Cravath. But it's also not a "40% of the people I've interviewed today have this" judicial externship. It is a biglaw gig - a gig that the vast majority of law students out kill in order to obtain. Christ, some people in this thread need a reality check.

Oh, and in before "lol enjoy DLA Piper" (the implication being that I'm defending the firm I'm going to be working for) - because it isn't accurate.


Its not a big law gig because its not a summer associate position. Sure it'll look fine on the resume, until they ask you - were you invited back? - and then it turns out that it wasn't a summer associate position, rather it was an unpaid internship.

The point that a lot of us are making here is that its not a Summer Associate position, so it shouldn't be treated like a Summer Associate position. Nor can one honestly place it on a resume as a Summer Associate position.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby dood » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:54 pm

...
Last edited by dood on Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:04 pm

dood wrote:
RVP11 wrote:DUDE, IT'S DLA PIPER!!! ELITE BIGLAW!

seriously. DLA < any other firm in that market. its like a bad restaurant that over-franchised. but DLA still looks better on ur resume than everything else.

also side note: you'll prolly get better WE at a judicial internship...but i feel like most law students are resume builders and dont actually care about the experience.

Just when you think TLS is as elitist as possible, the stakes raise. Solid V100 firm < any other firm in that market? Win. :lol:

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:05 pm

Its not a big law gig because its not a summer associate position. Sure it'll look fine on the resume, until they ask you - were you invited back? - and then it turns out that it wasn't a summer associate position, rather it was an unpaid internship.


Could you at least act like you've done some research before acting like you know what you're talking about? Many firms that take on 1L summer associates (including one I had an offer at a few years ago; hence, why this is anonymous) do not invite them to come back 2L summer as a matter of course, though they are more than welcome to interview again. Wachtell is the most prominent example of this. Firms know this too, so I'd be very surprised if "were you invited to come back for 2L summer?" ever arose. And if it did, OP can simply respond that the office doesn't take back its 1L summer associates without interviewing again. It's that simple.

The elitism here doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is the source: RVP. From reading his posts, I always thought he was one of the most down-to-earth people here, at least until he got his first few offers.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:21 pm

It doesn't need to be a summer associate gig in order to be a biglaw gig. You put "internship" instead of summer associateship. It still is going to look a lot better than "judicial internship # 39843" - and if you don't recognize that, you're an idiot hilariously wrong and misinformed.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby vamedic03 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:24 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:It doesn't need to be a summer associate gig in order to be a biglaw gig. You put "internship" instead of summer associateship. It still is going to look a lot better than "judicial internship # 39843" - and if you don't recognize that, you're an idiot hilariously wrong and misinformed.


Explain how an unpaid internship with a BigLaw firm that has SA positions is any more prestigious than a public service internship or judicial internship.

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Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby vamedic03 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Its not a big law gig because its not a summer associate position. Sure it'll look fine on the resume, until they ask you - were you invited back? - and then it turns out that it wasn't a summer associate position, rather it was an unpaid internship.


Could you at least act like you've done some research before acting like you know what you're talking about? Many firms that take on 1L summer associates (including one I had an offer at a few years ago; hence, why this is anonymous) do not invite them to come back 2L summer as a matter of course, though they are more than welcome to interview again. Wachtell is the most prominent example of this. Firms know this too, so I'd be very surprised if "were you invited to come back for 2L summer?" ever arose. And if it did, OP can simply respond that the office doesn't take back its 1L summer associates without interviewing again. It's that simple.

The elitism here doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is the source: RVP. From reading his posts, I always thought he was one of the most down-to-earth people here, at least until he got his first few offers.


At least RVP will post using him name rather than insulting people while hiding behind the anonymous posting feature.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:29 pm

Explain how an unpaid internship with a BigLaw firm that has SA positions is any more prestigious than a public service internship or judicial internship.


I hope you understand that even if OP puts "Intern" in the resume entry, firms will still assume it's a summer associate position just by virtue of seeing "DLA Piper." "Summer associate" is technically a misnomer, and actually putting that phrase in one's resume has gotten people applying for bar admission in NY chastised by C&F (something about representing oneself as being licensed to practice law, etc.). It's much more appropriate to put something like "Legal Intern," or "Summer Intern," or "Summer Clerk," and firms will all assume that it means "paid summer associateship."

And aside from that, I don't see the issue with calling this a "summer associate" position. Maybe you're having an issue with it because it's unpaid, but compensation is no one else's business. If a firm offered me a summer associate position, but at only $1,000/k a week, I wouldn't specify in my resume that I was be compensated only by that much.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:31 pm

At least RVP will post using him name rather than insulting people while hiding behind the anonymous posting feature.


1) I gave my reason for posting anonymously. I really don't care about "hiding" from you, especially since...
2) There wasn't an insult in the post. There was snark, sure. But my post was 100% correct about your being 100% wrong.

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:32 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:It doesn't need to be a summer associate gig in order to be a biglaw gig. You put "internship" instead of summer associateship. It still is going to look a lot better than "judicial internship # 39843" - and if you don't recognize that, you're an idiot hilariously wrong and misinformed.


Explain how an unpaid internship with a BigLaw firm that has SA positions is any more prestigious than a public service internship or judicial internship.


Fuck's sake. It isn't even just a prestige thing. It's an "ability to talk a little more intelligently about working at a law firm, what kind of work you did, and possible practice area prefs than the next OCI guy" thing. It's a "my resume was noticeably different than the other 50 people with judicial internship positions, in a way that made me more memorable" thing.

Furthermore, do you honestly fucking think that people are going to see "DLA Piper" and think "unpaid job"? You don't put "unpaid internship" - you put "summer internship" or "internship" - and many internships are paid. You think the majority of interviews are going to ask whether it was a paid position?

Guess what - working at a firm - and, more importantly, getting a reference from a lawyer at a firm (which you can do even in an unpaid internship) - is a great signaling mechanism that you'll do well at a firm.

Plus, there is the writing sample consideration (admittedly a small part of this). Many judges won't let you use anything you wrote for them as a writing sample (and I don't say this in the abstract - I interned for a state supreme court chief justice my 1L year, and wasn't able to use anything I wrote for her). Even if they did, it's not an example of the kind of writing you will do at a firm.

You know that idiot comment that I struck out? Yeah, unstrike it - you're an idiot.

Aqualibrium
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:57 am

Re: 1L Summer - UNPAID firm job overseas vs. judicial externship

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:35 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:It doesn't need to be a summer associate gig in order to be a biglaw gig. You put "internship" instead of summer associateship. It still is going to look a lot better than "judicial internship # 39843" - and if you don't recognize that, you're an idiot hilariously wrong and misinformed.


Explain how an unpaid internship with a BigLaw firm that has SA positions is any more prestigious than a public service internship or judicial internship.


Because nobody knows it was unpaid but you.


Anyway, from my OCI experience, working at any major firm during 1L summer gives you a huge advantage over the competition and sets your resume apart. I got the opportunity to work at two pretty big regional firms. During OCI, no one asked me if I was payed or not (which I was), but everyone asked what I did, how I liked it, and what I took away from the experience.

I was asked whether or not I had been invited to come back. At one firm, I had been so I said as much. At the other, I simply explained that because of the type of firm (plaintiffs), and the nature of their summer program, offers aren't typically extended. I went on to explain that I was sure they would be happy to have me back if I chose to come though. If asked a similar question, OP simply needs to say "It was a pilot program, the brain child of one of the partners at the firm. As a result, it's not your typical program where offers are extended at the end of the summer. I got many compliments on my work though, and I'm sure if I expressed a desire to return I would be welcomed."

Vamedic, I suppose I see your reservations, but this is really a pretty good deal. Work for a firm, have something interesting on your resume, chill in Hong Kong. Not many people are gonna be able to say they did all of that in one summer.
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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