Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Blindmelon » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:14 pm

A weird thing I noticed is grades actually hurting people in a way. There are top 10% people who couldn't snag anything even though had CBs at places like Skadden, Cleary, DPW all the way down to non-vault firms. You would think they would get some offer at least, but either the lower firms just thought they'd get a better offer and not take it, or some intangible personality thing just precluded them from anything. They obviously had the personality to get the CBs though.

Also - grade floors seems like TCR, at least for certain markets. Those with bigfirm jobs in DC seem to be all Top 10% + LR/Secondary. V50 NYC people seem to be at least top 1/3rd + secondary - and Boston goes all the way down to median from people I know (some market rate Boston firms dig deep into BC/BU and tend to hire based more on fit/ties).

But honestly, no one has any idea what these firms look for/require. There are a good chunk of people with great grades at BU that just struck out, and those with not so great grades with offers. Who knows.

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rayiner
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby rayiner » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:20 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
hellojd wrote:How much does WE help one's shots at OCI in the T10? Does a median student at a T10 with some good WE tend to be able to place into Biglaw (especially curious about MVP here)

Based on what I've seen and heard this year, it can help you outperform your peers (that is, get some jobs similarly-ranked classmates with no WE didn't get) but only to an extent (don't expect to jump ahead of everyone who's top-quarter who interviews well) and only if your GPA doesn't already exclude you (Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


+1.

The key thing to understand is that at some point in the process, several people need to go: "hire this guy." The hiring committee will set certain filters, most notably GPA cut-off, but those will serve to weed you out, they won't get you the job.

Once you're inside the target grade range, work experience can be a big boost. It gives your interviewers something concrete to latch onto when they sit in the hiring committee meeting and recommend that the firm hire you over all the other people they're considering with better grades.

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RVP11
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:46 pm

vanwinkle wrote:(Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


Skadden isn't THAT selective.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:52 pm

RVP11 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:(Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


Skadden isn't THAT selective.


Yeah I was about to say. I think a lot of people mistakenly think that V10 automatically= very selective. Skadden's ( along with Weil) actually one of the V10's most likely to deviate from a high GPA requirement to hire personable students (at least from what I've seen of the hiring charts and from anecdotal evidence.) Really outside of Wachtell, Williams and Connolly, and to a lesser extent Sullivan and Covington DC many of the V10 firms aren't nearly as rigid with their GPA requirements as a lot of posters make them out to be.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:Know some recent grads from [Michigan], and I was surprised to learn their current jobs are actually fellowships with stipends paid by the school. Those stipends are temporary, and I don't know what they'll do when that money runs out, but it's enough to make sure the grads were "employed nine months after graduation" even if only on a temporary basis.


I can't believe the assholes cutting down this post. As a Michigan student, I can tell you that several post-3L's and 3L's have their jobs in government with stipend. Go to the Ann Arbor City Attorney's Office and you will find several 3L's/post-3L's who are working on stipend. Go to other Ann Arbor government offices and you will find more. Go outside of Ann Arbor and you will find even more.

Michigan has had a very rough time placing into BIGLAW. Another post that mentioned 70% of 3L's not finding BIGLAW is probably correct. People have to realize that a lot of students will lie about their SA position because they don't want to feel as though they are outside the norm (even though the norm is not BIGLAW at Michigan). Get a 2L who said they have BIGLAW drunk, then the truth comes out.

It's really that rough out there. I don't know why anyone would choose to go to law school in the current economic climate. It's not getting better out there. Show me why the economy is better and I'll show you 5 examples of why it's not.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:50 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:(Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


Skadden isn't THAT selective.


Yeah I was about to say. I think a lot of people mistakenly think that V10 automatically= very selective. Skadden's ( along with Weil) actually one of the V10's most likely to deviate from a high GPA requirement to hire personable students (at least from what I've seen of the hiring charts and from anecdotal evidence.) Really outside of Wachtell, Williams and Connolly, and to a lesser extent Sullivan and Covington DC many of the V10 firms aren't nearly as rigid with their GPA requirements as a lot of posters make them out to be.


I'm not sure how accurate your assertions are. I know the vast majority of Skadden NYC and SullCrom callbacks at UVA this year went to LR grade on people.

While the GPA requirements may not be 'rigid', the GPA requirements are very high and I wouldn't plan on being the exception. Also, I wouldn't trust any hiring chart that you may have seen. All the hiring charts that us 2L's at UVA have seen were pre-ITE and while NYC may have shown some signs of recovery, ITE is still in effect and fairly rough.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:(Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


Skadden isn't THAT selective.


Yeah I was about to say. I think a lot of people mistakenly think that V10 automatically= very selective. Skadden's ( along with Weil) actually one of the V10's most likely to deviate from a high GPA requirement to hire personable students (at least from what I've seen of the hiring charts and from anecdotal evidence.) Really outside of Wachtell, Williams and Connolly, and to a lesser extent Sullivan and Covington DC many of the V10 firms aren't nearly as rigid with their GPA requirements as a lot of posters make them out to be.


I'm not sure how accurate your assertions are. I know the vast majority of Skadden NYC and SullCrom callbacks at UVA this year went to LR grade on people.

While the GPA requirements may not be 'rigid', the GPA requirements are very high and I wouldn't plan on being the exception. Also, I wouldn't trust any hiring chart that you may have seen. All the hiring charts that us 2L's at UVA have seen were pre-ITE and while NYC may have shown some signs of recovery, ITE is still in effect and fairly rough.
The hiring charts were from last year dood.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Unemployed » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:(Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


Skadden isn't THAT selective.


Yeah I was about to say. I think a lot of people mistakenly think that V10 automatically= very selective. Skadden's ( along with Weil) actually one of the V10's most likely to deviate from a high GPA requirement to hire personable students (at least from what I've seen of the hiring charts and from anecdotal evidence.) Really outside of Wachtell, Williams and Connolly, and to a lesser extent Sullivan and Covington DC many of the V10 firms aren't nearly as rigid with their GPA requirements as a lot of posters make them out to be.


I'm not sure how accurate your assertions are. I know the vast majority of Skadden NYC and SullCrom callbacks at UVA this year went to LR grade on people.

While the GPA requirements may not be 'rigid', the GPA requirements are very high and I wouldn't plan on being the exception. Also, I wouldn't trust any hiring chart that you may have seen. All the hiring charts that us 2L's at UVA have seen were pre-ITE and while NYC may have shown some signs of recovery, ITE is still in effect and fairly rough.


Based on my experience at Columbia, V10-15 recruiting seems to operate as follows:

- W&C: Pretty much impossible.
- WLRC: Very high + hard GPA cutoff + you have to ace a weird interview to get a callback + you have to ace every callback to get an offer.
- Cravath: High + hard GPA cutoff + ace the callback for an offer.
- S&C: High + hard GPA cutoff, but callback = offer
- DPW/Covington/Gibson: Medium high + hard GPA cutoff + personality/enthusiasm counts
- Skadden/Simpson/Cleary/Weil/Kirkland/Debevoise/PW: Medium high + soft GPA cutoff (i.e. they will make exceptions) + personality/enthusiasm counts

This impression is not based on OCI for non-NYC offices which tend to be more selective. Also I have no idea how the firms treat URMs.

Edit: moved Cleary down.

For some perspective: "medium high" = top 30-35%. Even at Kirkland NY, the least "selective" V15 office according to our chart, 57% of the offers went to Stone Scholars (top 30%).

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Kohinoor
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:09 pm

Unemployed wrote:This impression is not based on OCI for non-NYC offices which tend to be more selective. Also I have no idea how the firms treat URMs.

I got the impression that they were more lax at the pre-select stage.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:20 pm

RVP11 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:(Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


Skadden isn't THAT selective.



Agreed. Very few firms won't consider a 3.3 at a place like Penn (and I assume UVA, Mich, but am not sure). I know plenty of below 3.5s heading to Cleary, Debevoise, and Weil.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Unemployed » Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:26 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
Unemployed wrote:This impression is not based on OCI for non-NYC offices which tend to be more selective. Also I have no idea how the firms treat URMs.

I got the impression that they were more lax at the pre-select stage.


For URMs? That's nice. Not exactly a traditional "boost," but at least you get a shot.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Know some recent grads from [Michigan], and I was surprised to learn their current jobs are actually fellowships with stipends paid by the school. Those stipends are temporary, and I don't know what they'll do when that money runs out, but it's enough to make sure the grads were "employed nine months after graduation" even if only on a temporary basis.

I can't believe the assholes cutting down this post. As a Michigan student, I can tell you that several post-3L's and 3L's have their jobs in government with stipend. Go to the Ann Arbor City Attorney's Office and you will find several 3L's/post-3L's who are working on stipend. Go to other Ann Arbor government offices and you will find more. Go outside of Ann Arbor and you will find even more.

Michigan has had a very rough time placing into BIGLAW. Another post that mentioned 70% of 3L's not finding BIGLAW is probably correct. People have to realize that a lot of students will lie about their SA position because they don't want to feel as though they are outside the norm (even though the norm is not BIGLAW at Michigan). Get a 2L who said they have BIGLAW drunk, then the truth comes out.

It's really that rough out there. I don't know why anyone would choose to go to law school in the current economic climate. It's not getting better out there. Show me why the economy is better and I'll show you 5 examples of why it's not.

As the OP you were responding to, thanks for backing me up. My only comment is I wasn't talking about Michigan, so at least two T10s are doing this. It doesn't surprise me since protecting their "employed 9 months after graduation" rate matters to rankings and prestige.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:(Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


Skadden isn't THAT selective.



Agreed. Very few firms won't consider a 3.3 at a place like Penn (and I assume UVA, Mich, but am not sure). I know plenty of below 3.5s heading to Cleary, Debevoise, and Weil.


Yeah, but it's not that surprising considering a 3.3 at Penn is below their median of a 3.35 1L year.

While v10 is probably out with a 3.3 at MVP, I know Mich 3.3s headed to v20s next summer.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:08 pm

Kohinoor wrote:The hiring charts were from last year dood.


Regardless, the kind of jump he's describing is basically going from moderately selective to borderline Williams and Conolly in one year. In addition, I know a girl who's going to Skadden NYC and she's definitely not law review grade on like the anonymous poster was alleviating to. Unemployed's assessment sounds a lot more accurate. And not to put out people's business but I know a person with an offer at Covington DC whose GPA isn't even that high--there's no way Skadden NYC is more selective than Covington DC.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby RVP11 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:(Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).


Skadden isn't THAT selective.



Agreed. Very few firms won't consider a 3.3 at a place like Penn (and I assume UVA, Mich, but am not sure). I know plenty of below 3.5s heading to Cleary, Debevoise, and Weil.


Yeah, but it's not that surprising considering a 3.3 at Penn is below their median of a 3.35 1L year.

While v10 is probably out with a 3.3 at MVP, I know Mich 3.3s headed to v20s next summer.


V20 is meaningless when it includes Jones Days NighTTTs and Weekends.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:28 pm

At my MVP, the less selective V10s (STB, Skadden, Weil, arguably DPW) basically all have a hard cutoff at median, and a softer cutoff at top quarter.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Lawl Shcool » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:42 pm

RVP11 wrote:
V20 is meaningless when it includes Jones Days NighTTTs and Weekends.


Explain this?

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby RVP11 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:51 pm

JPU wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
V20 is meaningless when it includes Jones Days NighTTTs and Weekends.


Explain this?


I believe Jones Day is currently V19. Jones Day is historically not a very selective law firm when it comes to grades, with the exception of the DC office (and that can be said for just about every firm with a DC office). Pre-ITE Jones Day was not a popular destination for T14ers above median and was generally never mentioned in the same breath as others who are currently around them in the rankings (like OMM, GDC, A&P, WilmerHale). Also, the myth that Jones Day was doing so much better than other firms and hadn't laid people off was just that: a myth.

None of this is to say that Jones Day isn't a great law firm. It's not in the top 20-25 BigLaw firms for prestige or selectivity, but you could do a lot worse.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby markymark » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:41 am

RVP11 wrote:
JPU wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
V20 is meaningless when it includes Jones Days NighTTTs and Weekends.


Explain this?


I believe Jones Day is currently V19. Jones Day is historically not a very selective law firm when it comes to grades, with the exception of the DC office (and that can be said for just about every firm with a DC office). Pre-ITE Jones Day was not a popular destination for T14ers above median and was generally never mentioned in the same breath as others who are currently around them in the rankings (like OMM, GDC, A&P, WilmerHale). Also, the myth that Jones Day was doing so much better than other firms and hadn't laid people off was just that: a myth.

None of this is to say that Jones Day isn't a great law firm. It's not in the top 20-25 BigLaw firms for prestige or selectivity, but you could do a lot worse.


This.

It's kind of like when someone says "I work at V5" and then you realize that V5 is Skadden. Jones Day /= V20 selectivity/prestige just like Skadden =/ V5 selectivity/prestige.

It is important to remember that Vault Ranking /= Prestige and that different offices of the same firm have different levels of prestige within their respective markets.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Lawl Shcool » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:56 pm

markymark wrote: Vault Ranking /= Prestige


Isn't that the only thing firms are ranked on in Vault?

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:30 pm

Lawl Shcool wrote:
markymark wrote: Vault Ranking /= Prestige


Isn't that the only thing firms are ranked on in Vault?


I think where markymark is coming from is that Vault rankings are a good indicator of NYC prestige, but are far less accurate for outside of NYC.

Examples - the V10 provide a fair representation of prestige within NYC. But, there is no reason that Munger and Irell should be ranked below Jones Day in prestige.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:40 pm

But, there is no reason that Munger and Irell should be ranked below Jones Day in prestige.


It depends on how you define prestige. Among those who care most about grades and schools and stuff, Munger and Irell are more prestigious. Among attorneys in general, you'll probably find a sizable amount who think Jones Day is more prestigious simply because it's a more well known brand name. In the same way, Skadden is considered by many in NYC to be the most prestigious, even though most in the NYC legal world know many firms in the city that are considerably better.

This talk about "prestige" and firms really just strikes me as weird self-promoting navel gazing that has nothing to do with the original purpose of this thread.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Alice+Olivia » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:46 pm

I believe Jones Day is currently V19. Jones Day is historically not a very selective law firm when it comes to grades, with the exception of the DC office (and that can be said for just about every firm with a DC office). Pre-ITE Jones Day was not a popular destination for T14ers above median and was generally never mentioned in the same breath as others who are currently around them in the rankings (like OMM, GDC, A&P, WilmerHale). Also, the myth that Jones Day was doing so much better than other firms and hadn't laid people off was just that: a myth.


I'm new here, but I've been reading your posts for a while. You sound like you know what you're talking about, but none of these seems right. For example:

Pre-ITE Jones Day was not a popular destination for T14ers above median and was generally never mentioned in the same breath as others who are currently around them in the rankings (like OMM, GDC, A&P, WilmerHale).


Aren't you just a 2L? What do you know about the general trends of what "above-median T14" students took before the economic crisis?

"Same breath?" Aren't you just a 2L? How do you know how lawyers regard these firms? This also smacks of weird advocacy for OMM, which is not doing super well these days... or at least is not doing better than JD.

Also, the myth that Jones Day was doing so much better than other firms and hadn't laid people off was just that: a myth.


I think the former is true. The latter is certainly a myth.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby RVP11 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:04 pm

You begin your post on TLS by saying my conclusions are wrong, and your only support seems to be that I can't possibly be right because I'm a 2L (or so you think).

Do you disagree what I said? If so, tell me why you think I'm wrong. Don't tell me my conclusions are shit in one big ad hominem. I'll gladly call out 0L/1Ls in the Legal Employment forum when they're wrong, but it's silly to attack someone's knowledge base when they're right. If your 10 year old nephew accurately relates to you Einstein's theory of relativity, do you respond with "STFU, what do you know, you're only 10?"

And can current law students not know how firms were regarded several years ago? "Pre-ITE" was only 2.5 years ago. I started lurking on TLS and xoxo in 2005 when I decided to go to law school. And because I took time off between college and law school, I had friends who were in law school back when times were good.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby RVP11 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
But, there is no reason that Munger and Irell should be ranked below Jones Day in prestige.


It depends on how you define prestige. Among those who care most about grades and schools and stuff, Munger and Irell are more prestigious. Among attorneys in general, you'll probably find a sizable amount who think Jones Day is more prestigious simply because it's a more well known brand name. In the same way, Skadden is considered by many in NYC to be the most prestigious, even though most in the NYC legal world know many firms in the city that are considerably better.

This talk about "prestige" and firms really just strikes me as weird self-promoting navel gazing that has nothing to do with the original purpose of this thread.


The Vault rankings seem like a combination of "NYC transactional prestige" and "name brand recognition."

Munger/Irell used to be below DLA Piper, and PBWT still is - that can always make me chuckle.




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