Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

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pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:24 am

JazzOne wrote:
pasteurizedmilk wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
pasteurizedmilk wrote:I had a hiring partner at a V5 tell me the exact same thing. Only he left no room for exceptions.

Once you have the bare minimum GPA for that firm, the other stuff starts to matter. IME, barring extraordinary connections, diversity, or WE, firms won't stray below a certain GPA cutoff.


Having strict grade cut-offs =/= callbacks being determined entirely by grades. Yes, firms have cut-offs that are often very strict, but that doesn't mean that inside that band they select based on grades.


You basically just paraphrased my post.

Right, but what you said was not "the exact same thing" as the poster you quoted, who was claiming that callbacks are entirely determined by grades. The screening interview may be determined by grades, but they might call back the screeners on the lower end of the scale. The poster you quoted also said he knew this because one hiring partner told him so. I'm living proof that you can have a top GPA and then fail to secure call backs.

Oh I gotcha. I'm mostly talking about lotteries. For lottery OCIs, I firmly believe there is a hard (or close to it) GPA cutoff for who gets CBs. For people above that though, all sorts of variables come into play. But, IME, first you have to meet the bare minimum for GPA.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:18 am

For lottery OCIs, I firmly believe there is a hard (or close to it) GPA cutoff for who gets CBs. For people above that though, all sorts of variables come into play. But, IME, first you have to meet the bare minimum for GPA.



I think the missing puzzle piece that everyone is forgetting is that such "hard cutoffs" are surprisingly low, even for some of the most prestigious firms.

And there's no need to start busting out the TI-89 here. There's a bar that you have to meet. Grades, personality, work experience all help toward meeting that bar. The higher the grades, the more you may lack in other departments. The lower the grades, the more you need in other departments. Every firm sets the bar at different levels and gives these things varying weight. And yes, for some firms, grades are almost determinative.

Finally, firms are about as new to this concept as you are. Before the economic crisis, it was hilariously to get an offer. Firms handed them out like candy. This was (a) because there were more offers to give, (b) because yield was atrociously low for many firms, and (c) because they knew you would voluntarily leave in two years and they needed a warm body. None of these reasons exists in this economy. Yes, (c) might hold true because firms can fire people, but they'd rather avoid the black mark on their recruiting profile if they can.

Want to know what's even more scary? You might think that because you have a smaller summer class, you are safe in terms of a permanent offer. That's not true either. Many firms no offered many associates in their summer classes. I know some 3Ls who were completely blindsided. Latham can have 100% offer parties all they want, but that doesn't mean (some firms I can't out here) didn't fuck half of their summer associates.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:mich 3L here - talk to some 3Ls - I'd guess between 50 and 70% don't have a firm job or clerkship lined up.

No one responded to this? I have a hard time thinking that 50-70% of Michigan 3L's don't have a job lined up, bullshit? Or does someone else want to chime in.

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rayiner
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:34 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:mich 3L here - talk to some 3Ls - I'd guess between 50 and 70% don't have a firm job or clerkship lined up.

No one responded to this? I have a hard time thinking that 50-70% of Michigan 3L's don't have a job lined up, bullshit? Or does someone else want to chime in.


Not unbelievable. C/O 2011 was probably 40-50% getting something out of OCI at T7-14.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:36 am

rayiner wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:mich 3L here - talk to some 3Ls - I'd guess between 50 and 70% don't have a firm job or clerkship lined up.

No one responded to this? I have a hard time thinking that 50-70% of Michigan 3L's don't have a job lined up, bullshit? Or does someone else want to chime in.


Not unbelievable. C/O 2011 was probably 40-50% getting something out of OCI at T7-14.


But the post makes it believe that up to 70% of the class has absolutely NOTHING lined up. He doesn't seem he was limiting to v100.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:44 am

Mich student here - 70% sounds way too high. Not sure about 50%, since a fair number of people I know did apply outside of OCI and ended up with smaller firm jobs. If I had to guess, I'd say a 30% to 40%, but nobody really knows. (These people probably ended up working for the fed gov, which normally does not offer a post-graduate permanent position.)

Fwiw, I think this year's OCI was a lot better. 21 out of 25 2Ls I've spoken to have firm jobs - 19 got biglaw through OCI, 2 smaller to mid-sized firm through mailings. (And one of these people didn't do OCI because he only wants to work in his hometown.) Only 1 is on law review. This might be an unrepresentative sample, but I think all signs point to c/o 2012 having it much easier.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:49 am

rayiner wrote: Not unbelievable. C/O 2011 was probably 40-50% getting something out of OCI at T7-14.


It was probably around 30% at Berkeley, given the small number of SAs in California and more limited East Coast options. Which offices recruit at your OCI and what markets you bid on are determinative.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:59 am

Anonymous User wrote: Also, UVA is only 80% pre-select. The remaining part is 20% lottery. A lot of students will say that the 20% lottery picks are worthless because law firms ignore you. While this is true for some firms (I've gone into screening interviews where they ask me, "What's your name again?"), it's not true for all firms. I know firsthand because I got a summer offer from one of my lottery picks.

(Btw, I'm under top 1/3 ... though I'm close to it)


Well, I believe every other t-14 utilizes a lottery system, so it should work. I go to a school with a 100% lottery system and landed 50% callbacks out of screenings. I got callbacks at "reach" firms, which I probably wouldn't have received if my school employed a pre-select system.

If you bid properly, meaning you use your school's GPA data for past OCIs, the lottery system should work.

Re: Preselect system sucking - I believe the median student at UVA got only 9 screening interviews. The preselect system simply awards those who do not need help in getting a job (those in the top of their class) while hurting those who need it most (those with worse grades but have good resumes/personalities/interviewing skills).

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Mich student here - 70% sounds way too high. Not sure about 50%, since a fair number of people I know did apply outside of OCI and ended up with smaller firm jobs. If I had to guess, I'd say a 30% to 40%, but nobody really knows. (These people probably ended up working for the fed gov, which normally does not offer a post-graduate permanent position.)

Fwiw, I think this year's OCI was a lot better. 21 out of 25 2Ls I've spoken to have firm jobs - 19 got biglaw through OCI, 2 smaller to mid-sized firm through mailings. (And one of these people didn't do OCI because he only wants to work in his hometown.) Only 1 is on law review. This might be an unrepresentative sample, but I think all signs point to c/o 2012 having it much easier.


Mich OCI strikeout here going completely crazy. Probably middle third grades (close to top third, I think). I believe city choice had a lot to do with it. I guess I should have targeted NYC, but not only do I hate the city, it seems it would undermine my main BigLaw goal: pay off loans and get savings so I can do PI/gov't. I know another student similarly situated who has also come up short after not targeting NY.

I guess it is easier this year than last, but it's still rough. I hate myself for handling OCI so poorly. (That said, I also hate OCI for being a completely absurd recruiting system that is doubly ridiculous in this economy.) I might be able to track something down yet, but it has consumed my semester and been generally miserable.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:54 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:mich 3L here - talk to some 3Ls - I'd guess between 50 and 70% don't have a firm job or clerkship lined up.

No one responded to this? I have a hard time thinking that 50-70% of Michigan 3L's don't have a job lined up, bullshit? Or does someone else want to chime in.

Not unbelievable. C/O 2011 was probably 40-50% getting something out of OCI at T7-14.

But the post makes it believe that up to 70% of the class has absolutely NOTHING lined up. He doesn't seem he was limiting to v100.

Keep in mind that most non-OCI hiring hasn't happened yet. Smaller firms are still hiring. The majority of public service employers do their offerings in the late fall or winter, either because they're not time-pressured like firms are, or because they can wait and determine how many 1Ls and 2Ls they'll have coming. Some don't even start offering internships until spring. So it's possible to say that 70% of Mich 3Ls have nothing lined up yet and for that number to drop at least some over the next few months.

Edit: Also, as rayiner points out, he's not saying 70% has nothing lined up, just that they don't have a firm job or clerkship lined up.

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rayiner
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:08 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:mich 3L here - talk to some 3Ls - I'd guess between 50 and 70% don't have a firm job or clerkship lined up.

No one responded to this? I have a hard time thinking that 50-70% of Michigan 3L's don't have a job lined up, bullshit? Or does someone else want to chime in.


Not unbelievable. C/O 2011 was probably 40-50% getting something out of OCI at T7-14.


But the post makes it believe that up to 70% of the class has absolutely NOTHING lined up. He doesn't seem he was limiting to v100.


He said "firm job or clerkship." What sorts of firm jobs do you think people who strike out at OCI get? Mythical 100k/year midlaw?

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I believe the median student at UVA got only 9 screening interviews


Wrong.

The median number of preselect interviews was 9.

I know a guy with a 3.2 who had 20+ and several people with 3.3 who had 15+. I never ran across a single person with fewer than 10.

You basically only got screwed if you a) had less than a ~3.2 or b) had less than a ~3.4 and bid heavily on DC. In either case, you had to know what was coming and you were pretty much screwed before OGI started.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:58 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:But the post makes it believe that up to 70% of the class has absolutely NOTHING lined up. He doesn't seem he was limiting to v100.

Keep in mind that most non-OCI hiring hasn't happened yet. Smaller firms are still hiring. The majority of public service employers do their offerings in the late fall or winter, either because they're not time-pressured like firms are, or because they can wait and determine how many 1Ls and 2Ls they'll have coming. Some don't even start offering internships until spring. So it's possible to say that 70% of Mich 3Ls have nothing lined up yet and for that number to drop at least some over the next few months.

Edit: Also, as rayiner points out, he's not saying 70% has nothing lined up, just that they don't have a firm job or clerkship lined up.

Unless a very significant amount of the 3Ls got no-offered this summer (25%+), there's no way 70% of the class doesn't have something lined up.

We placed approximately 40-45% of the class into firm jobs last year - according to our OCS data, we had about ~315ish people reporting their employers, and using only those reported numbers and calculating the class size to 400 members, approximately 40% had firm jobs. Out of those 85 that didn't report, there are a couple options: (1) none of them got firm jobs and didn't report because they're bitter, or (2) some got firm jobs, some didn't, but all of them didn't report out of laziness/because they didn't know they were supposed to/because the form is seriously almost impossible to find on the OCS website. Some will believe that (1) is the case, but I'm going with (2) - I personally got a 1L job I really liked with a federal judge, but didn't know how to report the information, I was lazy, and therefore I wasn't included. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened to some people who got firm jobs. That said, I don't know - maybe the only people not reporting all struck out. But either way, I'm highly skeptical that the figure is 50-70% without anything lined up. 70% seems impossible, and 50% would seem possible only if people hadn't made any progress over November of last year.

Anonymous User wrote:Mich student here - 70% sounds way too high. Not sure about 50%, since a fair number of people I know did apply outside of OCI and ended up with smaller firm jobs. If I had to guess, I'd say a 30% to 40%, but nobody really knows. (These people probably ended up working for the fed gov, which normally does not offer a post-graduate permanent position.)

Fwiw, I think this year's OCI was a lot better. 21 out of 25 2Ls I've spoken to have firm jobs - 19 got biglaw through OCI, 2 smaller to mid-sized firm through mailings. (And one of these people didn't do OCI because he only wants to work in his hometown.) Only 1 is on law review. This might be an unrepresentative sample, but I think all signs point to c/o 2012 having it much easier.

I'm another 2L who has also avoided asking about people's jobs. That said, within my group of friends who are close enough to discuss OCI, I can count the number of people still searching on one hand. Actually, with a couple fingers - many of my sub-median friends have private sector firm jobs in primary/secondary markets, even if not Vault/NLJ. I know of many more V10/DC biglaw offers than those without anything. Of course, those without a job will naturally be much more quiet about their situation, and most people thankfully are being quiet in general about any offers they do/don't have. However, I also agree that this year seems to be markedly better than for c/o 2011.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm another 2L who has also avoided asking about people's jobs. That said, within my group of friends who are close enough to discuss OCI, I can count the number of people still searching on one hand. Actually, with a couple fingers - many of my sub-median friends have private sector firm jobs in primary/secondary markets, even if not Vault/NLJ. I know of many more V10/DC biglaw offers than those without anything. Of course, those without a job will naturally be much more quiet about their situation, and most people thankfully are being quiet in general about any offers they do/don't have. However, I also agree that this year seems to be markedly better than for c/o 2011.



Fuuuuuuuck my liiiiiiiiife.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:27 pm

rayiner wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:No one responded to this? I have a hard time thinking that 50-70% of Michigan 3L's don't have a job lined up, bullshit? Or does someone else want to chime in.


Not unbelievable. C/O 2011 was probably 40-50% getting something out of OCI at T7-14.


But the post makes it believe that up to 70% of the class has absolutely NOTHING lined up. He doesn't seem he was limiting to v100.


He said "firm job or clerkship." What sorts of firm jobs do you think people who strike out at OCI get? Mythical 100k/year midlaw?


I was including all firms jobs, including shitlaw.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:We placed approximately 40-45% of the class into firm jobs last year

This means 55-60% weren't, and even if offer rates were 100% across the board, that could mean 60% of Michigan 3Ls don't have firm work. It depends on how 3L OCI went, and I've heard very bad things about how that went for people that didn't have firm jobs already. So the 70% might have been excessive, but it still sounds like there's some large number of Michigan students who don't have a firm job. At worst it's 60%, at best it's ... somewhere less than 60%, which isn't entirely reassuring.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:59 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:We placed approximately 40-45% of the class into firm jobs last year

This means 55-60% weren't, and even if offer rates were 100% across the board, that could mean 60% of Michigan 3Ls don't have firm work. It depends on how 3L OCI went, and I've heard very bad things about how that went for people that didn't have firm jobs already. So the 70% might have been excessive, but it still sounds like there's some large number of Michigan students who don't have a firm job. At worst it's 60%, at best it's ... somewhere less than 60%, which isn't entirely reassuring.

NY to 190!

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:04 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Not unbelievable. C/O 2011 was probably 40-50% getting something out of OCI at T7-14.


But the post makes it believe that up to 70% of the class has absolutely NOTHING lined up. He doesn't seem he was limiting to v100.


He said "firm job or clerkship." What sorts of firm jobs do you think people who strike out at OCI get? Mythical 100k/year midlaw?


I was including all firms jobs, including shitlaw.


Lots of mid-sized and most small firms don't give offers to summer hires, if they even hire people for the summer at all. These places hire people after they graduate and pass the bar. As 3Ls, these people will not have something "lined up" even if they worked at a small firm over 2L summer.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:54 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
I was including all firms jobs, including shitlaw.


mr. 70% here - i wasn't limiting to v100, but i'd say i was limiting to biglaw, fed. clerkships, fed. government agencies (permanent hires), and mythical 100k/yr midlaw.

just because OCS got http://www.janiklaw.com to come interview and some poor fucking 3L may be working there, or that other firm nacht and whatever that advertises on the side of 23 and 94 with billboards may employ a 3L .... that does NOT count as 'employed' for my between 50-70% of mich 3Ls are fucked group. i know at least 10 people who were between 3.45 and 3.65 1L year who struck out at OCI and now have essentially nothing - most targeted Chicago and DC.

the people with no jobs are quiet now? it's the people WITH jobs who had to be quiet last year, because you'd have a circle of 10 kids talking in the hallway and they'd be like WELL AT LEAST NONE OF US HAVE JOBS and 1 or 2 people would look awkwardly to the side.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Noval » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
pasteurizedmilk wrote:Grades are still incredibly important though......let's not get carried away with the recent "grades aren't determinative" statements.

You still need to work as hard as you can and try to get the best grades possible. Sub-median grades might not prohibit you from finding a job, but good grade definitely help you find one.

And, to be realistic, poor grads make it very very hard to get into a certain tier of firms.


Yep, you have to put in the work somewhere. You might as well work hard, get good grades, and waltz to a 160K job (barring MAJOR social skills fail that would have kept you out pre-ITE) then be in a situation where one seemingly minor procedural mistake, such as bidding on the wrong market or the wrong firms in that market, means you are shut out.

As someone with mediocre grades and no offer, even if I had made the right bidding and mailing decisions, there is still a very good chance I would be in the same position. A top 20% GPA OTOH is pretty much a guarantee unless you bid exclusively DC or CA.


Yes, some people say that social skills add value to your record, it's bull.
Firms want to see if their Associates can do the job, they don't give a fuck if you have 5000 friends on Facebook and aren't shy to talk.
Grades will make or break you.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:12 pm

Noval wrote:Yes, some people say that social skills add value to your record, it's bull.
Firms want to see if their Associates can do the job, they don't give a fuck if you have 5000 friends on Facebook and aren't shy to talk.
Grades will make or break you.

I think it depends on the firm. Grades may be necessary but not sufficient in a lot of places, especially ITE where there's so much more supply of students than demand.

That is, they won't take you if you don't have good enough grades, but even if you do have good grades you'd better pass the OCI interview "personality test". It's not one or the other, you need both. And people who have a strong personality and good enough grades can certainly do well, even over someone with higher grades, in a lot of places.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:18 pm

Noval wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
pasteurizedmilk wrote:Grades are still incredibly important though......let's not get carried away with the recent "grades aren't determinative" statements.

You still need to work as hard as you can and try to get the best grades possible. Sub-median grades might not prohibit you from finding a job, but good grade definitely help you find one.

And, to be realistic, poor grads make it very very hard to get into a certain tier of firms.


Yep, you have to put in the work somewhere. You might as well work hard, get good grades, and waltz to a 160K job (barring MAJOR social skills fail that would have kept you out pre-ITE) then be in a situation where one seemingly minor procedural mistake, such as bidding on the wrong market or the wrong firms in that market, means you are shut out.

As someone with mediocre grades and no offer, even if I had made the right bidding and mailing decisions, there is still a very good chance I would be in the same position. A top 20% GPA OTOH is pretty much a guarantee unless you bid exclusively DC or CA.


Yes, some people say that social skills add value to your record, it's bull.
Firms want to see if their Associates can do the job, they don't give a fuck if you have 5000 friends on Facebook and aren't shy to talk.
Grades will make or break you.


In my experience, "social skills" or "personality" is a HUGE factor in BigLaw hiring. It was pretty easy to predict which of my friends would overperform or underperform their grades.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby JazzOne » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Noval wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
pasteurizedmilk wrote:Grades are still incredibly important though......let's not get carried away with the recent "grades aren't determinative" statements.

You still need to work as hard as you can and try to get the best grades possible. Sub-median grades might not prohibit you from finding a job, but good grade definitely help you find one.

And, to be realistic, poor grads make it very very hard to get into a certain tier of firms.


Yep, you have to put in the work somewhere. You might as well work hard, get good grades, and waltz to a 160K job (barring MAJOR social skills fail that would have kept you out pre-ITE) then be in a situation where one seemingly minor procedural mistake, such as bidding on the wrong market or the wrong firms in that market, means you are shut out.

As someone with mediocre grades and no offer, even if I had made the right bidding and mailing decisions, there is still a very good chance I would be in the same position. A top 20% GPA OTOH is pretty much a guarantee unless you bid exclusively DC or CA.


Yes, some people say that social skills add value to your record, it's bull.
Firms want to see if their Associates can do the job, they don't give a fuck if you have 5000 friends on Facebook and aren't shy to talk.
Grades will make or break you.


In my experience, "social skills" or "personality" is a HUGE factor in BigLaw hiring. It was pretty easy to predict which of my friends would overperform or underperform their grades.

+1

I don't attend a T10, but the most personable people at my school outperformed their grades when it came to hiring.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby hellojd » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:13 pm

How much does WE help one's shots at OCI in the T10? Does a median student at a T10 with some good WE tend to be able to place into Biglaw (especially curious about MVP here)

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:57 pm

hellojd wrote:How much does WE help one's shots at OCI in the T10? Does a median student at a T10 with some good WE tend to be able to place into Biglaw (especially curious about MVP here)

Based on what I've seen and heard this year, it can help you outperform your peers (that is, get some jobs similarly-ranked classmates with no WE didn't get) but only to an extent (don't expect to jump ahead of everyone who's top-quarter who interviews well) and only if your GPA doesn't already exclude you (Skadden won't give a 3.3 student the time of day even if you were the governor of Alaska).




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