Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

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RVP11
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:56 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The reality is that no on on here definitively knows the answer to this and a lot of it is just baseless speculation.


I'd say speculation based on dozens of 2L anecdotes is far from baseless.

Generally, at MVP (my MVP, at least):

Huge majority of top 1/3 got BigLaw in market of their choice

Middle 1/3 got BigLaw if they chose the right market, bid well and interviewed at least decently

Bottom 1/3 generally didn't get BigLaw, with a few exceptions (LR write-on, lots of WE, spectacular interviewer, attractive female, or IP)

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:01 pm

BruceWayne wrote:In the last few months I've seen a mass number of TLS posters say 100 different things about this topic, many of which are contradictory. Some of these posters have responded in this thread. I've heard everything from "Only HYS are safe" to "the only place with firm jobs is NYC" to " top 6 are safe" to only top 1/3 at MVP are getting firms jobs" to "Everyone without WE is out of luck". The truth is that you need to ask career services and use a bit of common sense. The reality is that no on on here definitively knows the answer to this and a lot of it is just baseless speculation.


Do not rely on anything career services says unless you've checked it out with people who have been through the process. Their position is that everyone will "be fine." The advice, at my T6, was absolutely useless. For some people it was downright counter-productive. They also seem to be hostile to people who are informed about the process, or people who go beyond the pre-ITE "bid on firms you think would be nice to work at," strategy.

The collective wisdom of TLS posters > CSO

Basically, I thought CSO was supposed to be one part expert on law firm hiring, one part statistician number-crunching last year's data, one part salesman trying to sell each student. They are none of these things. They seem to be event planners and psychologists for students who struck out.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:In the last few months I've seen a mass number of TLS posters say 100 different things about this topic, many of which are contradictory. Some of these posters have responded in this thread. I've heard everything from "Only HYS are safe" to "the only place with firm jobs is NYC" to " top 6 are safe" to only top 1/3 at MVP are getting firms jobs" to "Everyone without WE is out of luck". The truth is that you need to ask career services and use a bit of common sense. The reality is that no on on here definitively knows the answer to this and a lot of it is just baseless speculation.


Do not rely on anything career services says unless you've checked it out with people who have been through the process. Their position is that everyone will "be fine." The advice, at my T6, was absolutely useless. For some people it was downright counter-productive. They also seem to be hostile to people who are informed about the process, or people who go beyond the pre-ITE "bid on firms you think would be nice to work at," strategy.

The collective wisdom of TLS posters > CSO


Sorry about your tiny pink CSO, bro.

UVA's CSO is pretty damn good, and has generally been straight up with folks.

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rayiner
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby rayiner » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So then what are these other factors employers look at? I'm straight out of undergrad, no work experience. I would consider myself a very good interviewer and I have ties to the market, but that market is Chicago. So how important is stuff like this, and other stuff?


It's very important that your market not be Chicago.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:In the last few months I've seen a mass number of TLS posters say 100 different things about this topic, many of which are contradictory. Some of these posters have responded in this thread. I've heard everything from "Only HYS are safe" to "the only place with firm jobs is NYC" to " top 6 are safe" to only top 1/3 at MVP are getting firms jobs" to "Everyone without WE is out of luck". The truth is that you need to ask career services and use a bit of common sense. The reality is that no on on here definitively knows the answer to this and a lot of it is just baseless speculation.


Do not rely on anything career services says unless you've checked it out with people who have been through the process. Their position is that everyone will "be fine." The advice, at my T6, was absolutely useless. For some people it was downright counter-productive. They also seem to be hostile to people who are informed about the process, or people who go beyond the pre-ITE "bid on firms you think would be nice to work at," strategy.

The collective wisdom of TLS posters > CSO


Sorry about your tiny pink CSO, bro.

UVA's CSO is pretty damn good, and has generally been straight up with folks.


Can you describe what makes UVA's CSO so good?

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:10 pm

pasteurizedmilk wrote:I had a hiring partner at a V5 tell me the exact same thing. Only he left no room for exceptions.

Once you have the bare minimum GPA for that firm, the other stuff starts to matter. IME, barring extraordinary connections, diversity, or WE, firms won't stray below a certain GPA cutoff.


Having strict grade cut-offs =/= callbacks being determined entirely by grades. Yes, firms have cut-offs that are often very strict, but that doesn't mean that inside that band they select based on grades.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can you describe what makes UVA's CSO so good?


If you made the effort over summer (by calling them in July, or by having met with them earlier) then they would help you construct a realistic bid list. They were honest about which firms you had very little shot with, and which were worth a bid. They would give you the lowest GPA for a callback from the year before, the average GPA for a callback - really, any number you could want. (I'll note here that they do NOT publish the numbers to students.)

They put out a 30 page handbook in May explaining the complicated OGI system. The handbook also contained several "success stories" from now-3Ls and what they think made them successful (reaching out to secondary markets outside of OGI early, interview strategies, etc.).

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can you describe what makes UVA's CSO so good?


If you made the effort over summer (by calling them in July, or by having met with them earlier) then they would help you construct a realistic bid list. They were honest about which firms you had very little shot with, and which were worth a bid. They would give you the lowest GPA for a callback from the year before, the average GPA for a callback - really, any number you could want. (I'll note here that they do NOT publish the numbers to students.)

They put out a 30 page handbook in May explaining the complicated OGI system. The handbook also contained several "success stories" from now-3Ls and what they think made them successful (reaching out to secondary markets outside of OGI early, interview strategies, etc.).


Too bad the pre-select system fucks over sub-top 1/3 UVA students.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Corsair » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:42 am

..

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:47 am

This is slightly better than anecdotes, although not that much better:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=133027

Those are figures for top half but not top quarter T14 students (any T14). People who marked down "0 offers" for a market spent at least a third of their OCI bids on that market. So it's by no means a sure thing, especially outside New York. Why do so many jobs have to be in such a lousy city?

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:54 am

Corsair wrote:Had an interesting conversation with a hiring partner at a small lit boutique recently (the kind that pays slightly below "market"). I mentioned that I suspected about a third of my class (2010) was unemployed, and he immediately shot down that number, hypothesizing that it could actually be significantly worse than that, depending on how you count some deferrals.

Just anecdotal evidence from someone else's point of view.

Know some recent grads from one of MVPB, and I was surprised to learn their current jobs are actually fellowships with stipends paid by the school. Those stipends are temporary, and I don't know what they'll do when that money runs out, but it's enough to make sure the grads were "employed nine months after graduation" even if only on a temporary basis.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby sundance95 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:Too bad the pre-select system fucks over sub-top 1/3 UVA students.


I've heard this several times and don't understand the sentiment. Why would a system that doesn't give out interviews in which one has 0% chance of actually being hired be termed 'fucking over the bottom 2/3rds of the class?'

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby sundance95 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Corsair wrote:Had an interesting conversation with a hiring partner at a small lit boutique recently (the kind that pays slightly below "market"). I mentioned that I suspected about a third of my class (2010) was unemployed, and he immediately shot down that number, hypothesizing that it could actually be significantly worse than that, depending on how you count some deferrals.

Just anecdotal evidence from someone else's point of view.

Know some recent grads from one of MVPB, and I was surprised to learn their current jobs are actually fellowships with stipends paid by the school. Those stipends are temporary, and I don't know what they'll do when that money runs out, but it's enough to make sure the grads were "employed nine months after graduation" even if only on a temporary basis.


Sounds like your friend actually went to Duke.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:58 am

sundance95 wrote:Sounds like your friend actually went to Duke.

Same poster, I mean a school ranked higher than Duke.

And friends, plural.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby sundance95 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Sounds like your friend actually went to Duke.

Same poster, I mean a school ranked higher than Duke.

And friends, plural.


And why are you afraid of outing said school? Not buying.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can you describe what makes UVA's CSO so good?


If you made the effort over summer (by calling them in July, or by having met with them earlier) then they would help you construct a realistic bid list. They were honest about which firms you had very little shot with, and which were worth a bid. They would give you the lowest GPA for a callback from the year before, the average GPA for a callback - really, any number you could want. (I'll note here that they do NOT publish the numbers to students.)

They put out a 30 page handbook in May explaining the complicated OGI system. The handbook also contained several "success stories" from now-3Ls and what they think made them successful (reaching out to secondary markets outside of OGI early, interview strategies, etc.).


Too bad the pre-select system fucks over sub-top 1/3 UVA students.


Not ones who didn't bid DC.

Most people I knew in that range who bid NY and/or secondary markets had 15-20 interviews. That's not "fucked over" by any means - it's more interviews than a lot of people get in lottery systems.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:15 am

sundance95 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Sounds like your friend actually went to Duke.

Same poster, I mean a school ranked higher than Duke.

And friends, plural.

And why are you afraid of outing said school? Not buying.

I have reasons. Ignore at your own peril.

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UnTouChablE
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby UnTouChablE » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Sounds like your friend actually went to Duke.

Same poster, I mean a school ranked higher than Duke.

And friends, plural.

And why are you afraid of outing said school? Not buying.

I have reasons. Ignore at your own peril.

Bullshit, one more person not buying.

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sundance95
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby sundance95 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Sounds like your friend actually went to Duke.

Same poster, I mean a school ranked higher than Duke.

And friends, plural.

And why are you afraid of outing said school? Not buying.

I have reasons. Ignore at your own peril.


--ImageRemoved--

Indeed, this has JDU stank all over it.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:00 am

mich 3L here - talk to some 3Ls - I'd guess between 50 and 70% don't have a firm job or clerkship lined up.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Sounds like your friend actually went to Duke.

Same poster, I mean a school ranked higher than Duke.

And friends, plural.

And why are you afraid of outing said school? Not buying.

I have reasons. Ignore at your own peril.


Well gee-wizz DrOctagonapusBAAAHHHHHH,

Thanks for the warning.

I'll give back a bit of that wisdom, in the same fashion for guarantee equality among us:

Stab your eyes out, before it's too late.

I have reasons. Ignore at your own peril.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hey so I wanted to figure out is how many law students have the opportunity to make BigLaw out of Michigan (where I started law school in September). I looked at NLJ 250 placement data for 2009 and those who got Federal Clerkships in 2009. I also assumed that someone who got a Federal Clerkship also could have gotten Big Law. So...

NLJ 250: 51% (See http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843)
Federal Clerkship: 14% (See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513)
Total Percentage: 65%

So, if you take that 65%, and you assume that the placement is not exactly the top 65%, so add in some leeway for those who don't want to do Big Law or clerkships, for example those who have good enough grades but do public interest, small firm, etc., and it seems to me like you could easily make the case, based on this data, that those in the top 70-75% of the class have a legitimate shot at Big Law. Which isn't exactly a horrible scenario.

My question is, what am I missing?


You're looking at data from class of 2009… This is a class that did OCI in 2007 (during the boom), so it’s not completely surprising that they did well. Shit didn’t really nosedive until the other year (i.e. for my class, c/o of 2011), although, there was a ton of deferrals/no offers in c/o 2010 (a class that did OCI in 2008).

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:51 am

I definitely agree that UVA's CSO has been pretty good overall. I also called during the summer and they took the time to tell me my chances given my GPA, background, etc.

Also, UVA is only 80% pre-select. The remaining part is 20% lottery. A lot of students will say that the 20% lottery picks are worthless because law firms ignore you. While this is true for some firms (I've gone into screening interviews where they ask me, "What's your name again?"), it's not true for all firms. I know firsthand because I got a summer offer from one of my lottery picks.

(Btw, I'm under top 1/3 ... though I'm close to it)

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can you describe what makes UVA's CSO so good?


If you made the effort over summer (by calling them in July, or by having met with them earlier) then they would help you construct a realistic bid list. They were honest about which firms you had very little shot with, and which were worth a bid. They would give you the lowest GPA for a callback from the year before, the average GPA for a callback - really, any number you could want. (I'll note here that they do NOT publish the numbers to students.)

They put out a 30 page handbook in May explaining the complicated OGI system. The handbook also contained several "success stories" from now-3Ls and what they think made them successful (reaching out to secondary markets outside of OGI early, interview strategies, etc.).


Too bad the pre-select system fucks over sub-top 1/3 UVA students.


Not ones who didn't bid DC.

Most people I knew in that range who bid NY and/or secondary markets had 15-20 interviews. That's not "fucked over" by any means - it's more interviews than a lot of people get in lottery systems.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:
pasteurizedmilk wrote:I had a hiring partner at a V5 tell me the exact same thing. Only he left no room for exceptions.

Once you have the bare minimum GPA for that firm, the other stuff starts to matter. IME, barring extraordinary connections, diversity, or WE, firms won't stray below a certain GPA cutoff.


Having strict grade cut-offs =/= callbacks being determined entirely by grades. Yes, firms have cut-offs that are often very strict, but that doesn't mean that inside that band they select based on grades.


You basically just paraphrased my post.

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Re: Are Prospects Really That Bad in T10? Please Cut Me Down.

Postby JazzOne » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:18 am

pasteurizedmilk wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
pasteurizedmilk wrote:I had a hiring partner at a V5 tell me the exact same thing. Only he left no room for exceptions.

Once you have the bare minimum GPA for that firm, the other stuff starts to matter. IME, barring extraordinary connections, diversity, or WE, firms won't stray below a certain GPA cutoff.


Having strict grade cut-offs =/= callbacks being determined entirely by grades. Yes, firms have cut-offs that are often very strict, but that doesn't mean that inside that band they select based on grades.


You basically just paraphrased my post.

Right, but what you said was not "the exact same thing" as the poster you quoted, who was claiming that callbacks are entirely determined by grades. The screening interview may be determined by grades, but they might call back the screeners on the lower end of the scale. The poster you quoted also said he knew this because one hiring partner told him so. I'm living proof that you can have a top GPA and then fail to secure call backs.




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