Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

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ilovesf
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby ilovesf » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:19 am

JazzOne wrote:
ilovesf wrote:I have a weird question about writing samples. I am rereading mine and finishing up the edits, and I remember that my professor asked us to short cite the previous case at the top of the page for the first citation. So instead of putting id. at the top of the page, I put a short cite. Is this the kind of thing I should change for my writing sample for OCI, or is it ok to leave it? I am not sure if this is something totally professor specific, so it would look like a mistake to employers.

The Bluebook does not require the use of short cites or id. You can use full citations throughout the document, and it's also acceptable to use a short cite rather than id for the first citation of each page. However, short cites are only appropriate if they are within five footnotes below the full citation. You can't use short cites for the rest of the document just because you gave the full citation near the beginning.

Having said all that, it's your writing sample. Edit it however you think best. Your professor's requirement is a little idiosyncratic, but I don't see anything technically wrong with it.

Thanks for your input!

Anonymous User
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:11 pm

So speaking of journals, how do you indicate on an OCI resume that you just accepted an invitation for a secondary journal?

ETA: Nevermind, I think I got it. Just putting "Selected for X Journal"

ams212
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby ams212 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:20 pm

Tag

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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:24 pm

That you simply will not get a job at a firms in NYC or DC with bad grades--even from a top 14. Your bids should be focused on your home market if it's a secondary market.

clone22
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby clone22 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That you simply will not get a job at a firms in NYC or DC with bad grades--even from a top 14. Your bids should be focused on your home market if it's a secondary market.

define bad grades

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ilovesf
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby ilovesf » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So speaking of journals, how do you indicate on an OCI resume that you just accepted an invitation for a secondary journal?

ETA: Nevermind, I think I got it. Just putting "Selected for X Journal"

I just put the name of the journal and then put 2012-2013.

keg411
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby keg411 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:08 pm

Emma. wrote:
ilovesf wrote:I have a weird question about writing samples. I am rereading mine and finishing up the edits, and I remember that my professor asked us to short cite the previous case at the top of the page for the first citation. So instead of putting id. at the top of the page, I put a short cite. Is this the kind of thing I should change for my writing sample for OCI, or is it ok to leave it? I am not sure if this is something totally professor specific, so it would look like a mistake to employers.


FWIW, I was not once asked for a writing sample during OCI or callbacks.


No joke, I had an interviewer read part of my writing sample during an OCI interview. Got positive remarks and a CB despite otherwise bombing the interview. But no one else looked at it and he definitely didn't do a careful check of the citations, so I wouldn't worry even if they do read it.

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manofjustice
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby manofjustice » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:T14 in the top third or so, nothing from OCI, desperately trying to recover.

http://www.despair.com/mis24x30prin.html

Take heed, future TLS readers.

1. Markets.

2. Mass-mailing before OCI. (Including alumni-contacting.)

3. Bidding properly on OCI (e.g. not wasting high-level bids on "easy-to-get" firms ... in particular, blow your weakest bids on more selective firms that fewer people will be going for)

4. For all the pressure that exists to get great 1L grades, it's really not about grades, at least for some firms. At my T14, it seems like the top 20% or so could waltz right into offers based on grades, at least at certain firms, but otherwise it doesn't seem to have been determinative.

5. Be aware of the distinction between "interview-ish" and "conversational" interviewing. The former would be: the interviewer pitches a question like, "Tell me about your experience at X job." or "What are your strengths?", you give a response, they evaluate you on your responses. The latter: a normal conversation, albeit about your qualifications. There is very much a difference between these two modes of interaction. I went with the former. I think it's part of what fucked me. They wanted to just talk, I adopted a different style, they were annoyed. I do tend to talk too much, but I don't think I'm some sort of crazy "aspie": it is very easy to go into "interview answer mode" when you're enormously stressed and they open with a question that sounds like an "interview-ish" question. Concrete advice: short answers, and let them talk. It isn't oral arguments and you don't need to score points by making persuasive arguments about your qualifications; most likely, someone in an office somewhere is going to be evaluating your qualifications, while this person judges how fun you are to be around.

6. Reinforcing 5: OCI is not a formality whereby they can pick up the transcripts that career services conceals from them. I think they actually do care quite a bit about how you come across.

7. Put a lot of apps in the oven early on. It quickly gets much harder to strike up a dialogue with a firm.

8. In case it wasn't clear: within about a month of OCI, most of the market has gone cold, and you're almost certainly fucked. (Or at least, you're in kind of that "here's what to do if trapped in a cage with a hungry bear" sort of situation ... there are ways to improve your odds of survival, but it's truly "last-ditch" desperate maneuvers.)

9. Counterpoint to 8: let's say you're someone who only finds this post in mid-September. 8 is true. However, do not underestimate the advantage of "now" relative to "in two weeks". Things are bad, but they will continue to get worse for quite some time before totally flatlining, which means that even if your odds suck now you will be longing for that modest measure of hope in the near future. Take advantage of it now.


Which school?

clint4law
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby clint4law » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:39 pm

tag

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BuckinghamB
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby BuckinghamB » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:53 pm

clint4law wrote:tag

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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:23 pm

manofjustice wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:T14 in the top third or so, nothing from OCI, desperately trying to recover.

http://www.despair.com/mis24x30prin.html

Take heed, future TLS readers.

1. Markets.

2. Mass-mailing before OCI. (Including alumni-contacting.)

3. Bidding properly on OCI (e.g. not wasting high-level bids on "easy-to-get" firms ... in particular, blow your weakest bids on more selective firms that fewer people will be going for)

4. For all the pressure that exists to get great 1L grades, it's really not about grades, at least for some firms. At my T14, it seems like the top 20% or so could waltz right into offers based on grades, at least at certain firms, but otherwise it doesn't seem to have been determinative.

5. Be aware of the distinction between "interview-ish" and "conversational" interviewing. The former would be: the interviewer pitches a question like, "Tell me about your experience at X job." or "What are your strengths?", you give a response, they evaluate you on your responses. The latter: a normal conversation, albeit about your qualifications. There is very much a difference between these two modes of interaction. I went with the former. I think it's part of what fucked me. They wanted to just talk, I adopted a different style, they were annoyed. I do tend to talk too much, but I don't think I'm some sort of crazy "aspie": it is very easy to go into "interview answer mode" when you're enormously stressed and they open with a question that sounds like an "interview-ish" question. Concrete advice: short answers, and let them talk. It isn't oral arguments and you don't need to score points by making persuasive arguments about your qualifications; most likely, someone in an office somewhere is going to be evaluating your qualifications, while this person judges how fun you are to be around.

6. Reinforcing 5: OCI is not a formality whereby they can pick up the transcripts that career services conceals from them. I think they actually do care quite a bit about how you come across.

7. Put a lot of apps in the oven early on. It quickly gets much harder to strike up a dialogue with a firm.

8. In case it wasn't clear: within about a month of OCI, most of the market has gone cold, and you're almost certainly fucked. (Or at least, you're in kind of that "here's what to do if trapped in a cage with a hungry bear" sort of situation ... there are ways to improve your odds of survival, but it's truly "last-ditch" desperate maneuvers.)

9. Counterpoint to 8: let's say you're someone who only finds this post in mid-September. 8 is true. However, do not underestimate the advantage of "now" relative to "in two weeks". Things are bad, but they will continue to get worse for quite some time before totally flatlining, which means that even if your odds suck now you will be longing for that modest measure of hope in the near future. Take advantage of it now.


Which school?


+1 please tell us.

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bender18
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby bender18 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:13 pm

tagging this

anon168
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby anon168 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:04 am

Never pick a firm based on prestige alone; pick a firm because you like the people at the firm.

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PennBull
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby PennBull » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:31 am

What is the common opinion on what a "big summer class size" is? Anything over 15-20? 30? 50?

2014utLaw
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby 2014utLaw » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:34 am

.
Last edited by 2014utLaw on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ilovesf
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby ilovesf » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:38 am

PennBull wrote:What is the common opinion on what a "big summer class size" is? Anything over 15-20? 30? 50?

Depends on the city

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PennBull
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby PennBull » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:40 am

ilovesf wrote:
PennBull wrote:What is the common opinion on what a "big summer class size" is? Anything over 15-20? 30? 50?

Depends on the city


NYC?

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Ratchet Jackson
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:42 am

PennBull wrote:
ilovesf wrote:
PennBull wrote:What is the common opinion on what a "big summer class size" is? Anything over 15-20? 30? 50?

Depends on the city


NYC?


NYC has such variation in class size, but I'd guess 20+ would probably consititute. And that's based on the NALP research I did prior to bidding.

Anonymous User
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That you simply will not get a job at a firms in NYC or DC with bad grades--even from a top 14. Your bids should be focused on your home market if it's a secondary market.


I think this is a bit fatalistic. I'm not going to make blanket statements based on anecdotal evidence, but I was in the bottom 10-15% at a T14 and I had multiple offers from vault ranked firms coming out of OCI. I didn't have any special factor going for me (IP/urm/prior work experience, etc). Of course it is A LOT harder than if you had above median grades, and looking into other markets is never a bad idea. But nyc has the most summer positions of any market. I think if you are in this position (i.e. bad grades) then you need to bid very conservatively and try to get as many interviews as possible, and then work on really marketing yourself. Just like law school applications, you want a cohesive narrative about your experiences and how they have translated into skills you can apply as a summer associate. Know which firms will laugh you out the door and which will give you a chance. Practice interviewing. Learn how to make small talk about literally anything. Its not going to be easy to get a biglaw nyc job with poor grades, but its not impossible.

That being said, don't waste your time on DC unless you have some serious connections.

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Ratchet Jackson
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That you simply will not get a job at a firms in NYC or DC with bad grades--even from a top 14. Your bids should be focused on your home market if it's a secondary market.


I think this is a bit fatalistic. I'm not going to make blanket statements based on anecdotal evidence, but I was in the bottom 10-15% at a T14 and I had multiple offers from vault ranked firms coming out of OCI. I didn't have any special factor going for me (IP/urm/prior work experience, etc). Of course it is A LOT harder than if you had above median grades, and looking into other markets is never a bad idea. But nyc has the most summer positions of any market. I think if you are in this position (i.e. bad grades) then you need to bid very conservatively and try to get as many interviews as possible, and then work on really marketing yourself. Just like law school applications, you want a cohesive narrative about your experiences and how they have translated into skills you can apply as a summer associate. Know which firms will laugh you out the door and which will give you a chance. Practice interviewing. Learn how to make small talk about literally anything. Its not going to be easy to get a biglaw nyc job with poor grades, but its not impossible.

That being said, don't waste your time on DC unless you have some serious connections.


What year were you applying?

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deebs
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby deebs » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:44 pm

RJ127 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So, about the suit.

I know you're supposed to have a nice suit, but I don't know what a nice suit is supposed to be like. How much should it cost? What stores? Is one from Macy's ok?


It's less about the cost and more about the fit. Macy's will be fine but obviously if you can spring for a nicer suit, you should. I'd keep it around $600-800 for economic sake.

And get the damn thing tailored. Off the rack suits that don't fit properly look cheap and horrible no matter who the maker is.


JCrew started making suits and selling them at their factory stores. They can be had for about 250 and get great reviews. If you want to spend more than that, I'd recommend suitsupply, especially if you're in ny/dc/chi where they have a store. I think you can get one there for 450 or so

Anonymous User
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:45 pm

RJ127 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That you simply will not get a job at a firms in NYC or DC with bad grades--even from a top 14. Your bids should be focused on your home market if it's a secondary market.


I think this is a bit fatalistic. I'm not going to make blanket statements based on anecdotal evidence, but I was in the bottom 10-15% at a T14 and I had multiple offers from vault ranked firms coming out of OCI. I didn't have any special factor going for me (IP/urm/prior work experience, etc). Of course it is A LOT harder than if you had above median grades, and looking into other markets is never a bad idea. But nyc has the most summer positions of any market. I think if you are in this position (i.e. bad grades) then you need to bid very conservatively and try to get as many interviews as possible, and then work on really marketing yourself. Just like law school applications, you want a cohesive narrative about your experiences and how they have translated into skills you can apply as a summer associate. Know which firms will laugh you out the door and which will give you a chance. Practice interviewing. Learn how to make small talk about literally anything. Its not going to be easy to get a biglaw nyc job with poor grades, but its not impossible.

That being said, don't waste your time on DC unless you have some serious connections.


What year were you applying?


I'm currently a summer associate, so last year (2011)

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PennBull
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby PennBull » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:46 pm

RJ127 wrote:
PennBull wrote:
ilovesf wrote:
PennBull wrote:What is the common opinion on what a "big summer class size" is? Anything over 15-20? 30? 50?

Depends on the city


NYC?


NYC has such variation in class size, but I'd guess 20+ would probably consititute. And that's based on the NALP research I did prior to bidding.


Can I get somebody to cosign this or refute it?

r6_philly
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:19 pm

PennBull wrote:
Can I get somebody to cosign this or refute it?


I think 20 is on the smaller side.

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Lincoln
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Lincoln » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:28 pm

r6_philly wrote:
PennBull wrote:
Can I get somebody to cosign this or refute it?


I think 20 is on the smaller side.


This. Firms based elsewhere with small-ish NYC offices will take in 10-20 summers. The largest NYC firms took up to 125 this summer.




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