Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

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Lil Kev
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Lil Kev » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:45 pm

keg411 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
keg411 wrote:OCI sucks.

Advice: DO MOCK INTERVIEWS. DO NOT GO INTO OCI IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE AT LEAST THREE AND AT LEAST ONE IS WITH A PRACTICING BIGLAW ATTORNEY. AND YES, I AM YELLING.


Really? I found them to be fairly worthless.


Yes. You don't want to realize you're a shitty interviewer halfway into OCI.


Mock interviews are really fucking important. I would ask the interviewer to be as frank as possible, too. Just make me cry if you have to.

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Lincoln
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Lincoln » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:01 pm

Things I wish I knew (that is contrary to most "common knowledge" on TLS):
(1) Your 1L summer gig can land you a SA with a firm everyone tells you you have no business even bidding on.
(2) Bidding very aggressively is a gamble that may well pay off.
(3) Being a good interviewer can be more valuable than grades.
(4) Once you have callbacks, it's a total crapshoot which firms actually give you offers.
(5) Being yourself is more important than being a boring, straight-A law student.
(6) Valuable pre-law school work experience is worth +.3 GPA ITE

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Lincoln
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Lincoln » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:08 pm

Lincoln wrote:Things I wish I knew (that is contrary to most "common knowledge" on TLS):
(1) Your 1L summer gig can land you a SA with a firm everyone tells you you have no business even bidding on.
(2) Bidding very aggressively is a gamble that may well pay off.
(3) Being a good interviewer can be more valuable than grades.
(4) Once you have callbacks, it's a total crapshoot which firms actually give you offers.
(5) Being yourself is more important than being a boring, straight-A law student.
(6) Valuable pre-law school work experience is worth +.3 GPA ITE

(7) Impressing people at recruiting "information" sessions firms hold at your school (this does NOT mean being a gunner) can get you CBs.

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traehekat
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby traehekat » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:01 pm

keg411 wrote:OCI sucks.

Advice: DO MOCK INTERVIEWS. DO NOT GO INTO OCI IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE AT LEAST THREE AND AT LEAST ONE IS WITH A PRACTICING BIGLAW ATTORNEY. AND YES, I AM YELLING.


Just want to emphasize how important this is.

Lets get a few things straight:

1) You suck at interviews.
2) You can get better at it, but you need to practice.
4) You also need to buy Guerrilla Tactics For Getting The Legal Job Of Your Dreams.
5) Doing one mock interview is not enough practice.
6) Practice until it is literally perfect, not until you think you have a "good idea" of how to do it - not good enough either.
7) It will never be perfect, so keep practicing at every reasonable chance you get.

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Veyron
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:38 am

Lil Kev wrote:
keg411 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
keg411 wrote:OCI sucks.

Advice: DO MOCK INTERVIEWS. DO NOT GO INTO OCI IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE AT LEAST THREE AND AT LEAST ONE IS WITH A PRACTICING BIGLAW ATTORNEY. AND YES, I AM YELLING.


Really? I found them to be fairly worthless.


Yes. You don't want to realize you're a shitty interviewer halfway into OCI.


Mock interviews are really fucking important. I would ask the interviewer to be as frank as possible, too. Just make me cry if you have to.


Thats why I found them worthless. Neither I nor the classmates I spoke to got any criticism at all (even though at least I specifically asked several times for some negatives). Now, maybe we were all perfect interviewers to begin with but ....

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romothesavior
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:46 am

Lincoln wrote:(7) Impressing people at recruiting "information" sessions firms hold at your school (this does NOT mean being a gunner) can get you CBs.

I'll second this. I walked into a screener in August for the firm I am going to work at this summer, and the recruiter and hiring partner both said "Good to see you again" and referenced a chat we had during an event like 9 months previous. At another screening interview, the hiring partner recalled a brief conversation we had two months before at a cocktail reception. Got offers from both.

Usually these people will forget you and you will just be another face in the crowd, but if you make a positive impression, they might circle your name or make a mental note, which makes them look forward to talking to you again at OCI (as opposed to uninterested and bored). Don't be pushy or awkward, but if you are a good networker and an easy-going, sociable person, these receptions and information sessions can be very beneficial. Won't get you the job on its own, but it is a small boost that can help build recognition.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:55 am

Veyron wrote:Thats why I found them worthless. Neither I nor the classmates I spoke to got any criticism at all (even though at least I specifically asked several times for some negatives). Now, maybe we were all perfect interviewers to begin with but ....


Sounds like you should be blaming your mock interviewer rather than mock interviews altogether. It's a very subtle distinction, so I get why people would miss that...

keg411
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby keg411 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:56 am

Veyron wrote:Thats why I found them worthless. Neither I nor the classmates I spoke to got any criticism at all (even though at least I specifically asked several times for some negatives). Now, maybe we were all perfect interviewers to begin with but ....


Did you do them with real, practicing attorneys or with Career Services?

Also, there is a reason why I emphasized to do more than one. Some people who do mocks are going to be pushovers, but if you keep doing them, you'll a) get better at it, and b) someone will be blunt enough to tell you "you suck and here's why".

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Veyron
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:05 am

keg411 wrote:
Veyron wrote:Thats why I found them worthless. Neither I nor the classmates I spoke to got any criticism at all (even though at least I specifically asked several times for some negatives). Now, maybe we were all perfect interviewers to begin with but ....


Did you do them with real, practicing attorneys or with Career Services?

Also, there is a reason why I emphasized to do more than one. Some people who do mocks are going to be pushovers, but if you keep doing them, you'll a) get better at it, and b) someone will be blunt enough to tell you "you suck and here's why".


Several real, practicing, attorneys.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:24 am

keg411 wrote:
Veyron wrote:Thats why I found them worthless. Neither I nor the classmates I spoke to got any criticism at all (even though at least I specifically asked several times for some negatives). Now, maybe we were all perfect interviewers to begin with but ....


Did you do them with real, practicing attorneys or with Career Services?

Also, there is a reason why I emphasized to do more than one. Some people who do mocks are going to be pushovers, but if you keep doing them, you'll a) get better at it, and b) someone will be blunt enough to tell you "you suck and here's why".


My career center has a guy they call in when students are struggling with mock interviews. He tears you apart and apparently has made some students cry in the past, but it worked so well.

Anonymous User
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:05 pm

(1) Dress confidently, but comfortably. Purchase and dry clean at least two quality-looking suits and about seven dress shirts. Sweat/wrinkle marks are generally frowned upon. New, crisp dress shoes are fun, too.

(2) Be yourself (unless yourself truly sucks; consult the consensus of your 1L class). Don't be smug, don't be a huge wuss, either. Shake hands confidently. Make eye contact. Smile, when appropriate. Don't sweat. Act as normal as possible.

(3) Have prepared answers that relate to some interesting story or to your resume. "Winging" interview questions is so, so dumb. Don't do it. Be able to answer: (1) Why this firm; (2) Why this location; (3) Why your law school.

(4) Have prepared questions. If there is a dead spot in the interview, or if the interviewer asks "So, what questions do you have for me", be ready to drop some legit stats, issues, or questions on the interviewer about the firm, her practice, etc. If all else fails, ask: "So, when a new associate asks you for advice about doing well at [XYZ firm], what do you tell them?" This question is gold.

(5) Learn from past mistakes.

(6) Have fun--you rarely get the opportunity to meet so many lawyers in this short amount of time.

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20130312
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Don't sweat.


I have a legit problem with this. My hands sweat profusely before interviews. Any tips for not being such a freak?

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Grizz
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Grizz » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:14 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Don't sweat.


I have a legit problem with this. My hands sweat profusely before interviews. Any tips for not being such a freak?

Gloves.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:16 pm

Grizz wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Don't sweat.


I have a legit problem with this. My hands sweat profusely before interviews. Any tips for not being such a freak?

Gloves.


Resin bags in your pockets or tissues. Don't pat your hands on the side of your pants, it looks stupid and could leave a mark.

keg411
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby keg411 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:28 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
Veyron wrote:Thats why I found them worthless. Neither I nor the classmates I spoke to got any criticism at all (even though at least I specifically asked several times for some negatives). Now, maybe we were all perfect interviewers to begin with but ....


Did you do them with real, practicing attorneys or with Career Services?

Also, there is a reason why I emphasized to do more than one. Some people who do mocks are going to be pushovers, but if you keep doing them, you'll a) get better at it, and b) someone will be blunt enough to tell you "you suck and here's why".


My career center has a guy they call in when students are struggling with mock interviews. He tears you apart and apparently has made some students cry in the past, but it worked so well.


That is awesome :D. Every school should have someone like this.

Veyron, also I don't believe that you and "all of your friends" had "several interviews" with "real practicing attorneys" and did not find them helpful. Or maybe you guys are all just the best interviewers ever :roll:.

Seriously, though: it's better to go through the process and see if you're bad at it then discover you're bad at it later. Even if you don't find it initially helpful. This is singlehandedly by BIGGEST OCI REGRET and if I had gotten my interviewing under control sooner, I probably would have done significantly better and had more options than I ended up having.

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sundance95
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby sundance95 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:57 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Don't sweat.


I have a legit problem with this. My hands sweat profusely before interviews. Any tips for not being such a freak?

Use a small amount of anti-perspirant. Seriously. Just make sure that it's not SUPER AXE OLD SPICE SWAG IN YOUR FACE smelling.

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Veyron
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:02 pm

keg411 wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
Veyron wrote:Thats why I found them worthless. Neither I nor the classmates I spoke to got any criticism at all (even though at least I specifically asked several times for some negatives). Now, maybe we were all perfect interviewers to begin with but ....


Did you do them with real, practicing attorneys or with Career Services?

Also, there is a reason why I emphasized to do more than one. Some people who do mocks are going to be pushovers, but if you keep doing them, you'll a) get better at it, and b) someone will be blunt enough to tell you "you suck and here's why".


My career center has a guy they call in when students are struggling with mock interviews. He tears you apart and apparently has made some students cry in the past, but it worked so well.


That is awesome :D. Every school should have someone like this.

Veyron, also I don't believe that you and "all of your friends" had "several interviews" with "real practicing attorneys" and did not find them helpful. Or maybe you guys are all just the best interviewers ever :roll:.

Seriously, though: it's better to go through the process and see if you're bad at it then discover you're bad at it later. Even if you don't find it initially helpful. This is singlehandedly by BIGGEST OCI REGRET and if I had gotten my interviewing under control sooner, I probably would have done significantly better and had more options than I ended up having.


I don't see why that's difficult to believe unless you don't know anything about the main Penn mock interview program and are talking out your ass. To get back to my initial post, I'm not arguing that mock interviews are never useful but simply expressing surprise that people here think they are super useful for most people since that wad not my experience nor the experience of others I have spoken to. Now I will say they 1LOCI was actually pretty useful. Those interviews were much more similar to the ones I encountered during 2L recruiting than the mock interviews.

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philosoraptor
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby philosoraptor » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:58 pm

1. Contrary to popular belief, if you go to UT, this does not mean you have an automatic "Texas connection." You have to have a separate connection, or top grades, if you want to work in Texas. I had neither, I didn't have my heart set on staying in state, and the firms could tell.

My advice: If you're below top third or so, focus on firms in markets where you do have strong connections. I got CBs in only one East Coast market where I had the strongest connection (that is, where the firms thought I was likeliest to want to live long-term). I wasted a lot of time interviewing with Texas firms who might have been interested only if I had a solid reason for wanting to work in, say, Dallas. I couldn't be happier with the way it all turned out, but I wish I'd known this going in.

2. If you've never done a callback-style interview before, get Guerrilla Tactics and read it a bunch. It helped me immensely -- mostly with nerves, and knowing what to expect and how to approach it.

3. If you can, use a real writing sample from your 1L summer job. I found out from the hiring partner at my V50 firm, which should have been out of my GPA reach, that my writing sample sufficiently impressed one of the litigation partners that he went to bat for me to get an offer. During the CB, he dissected it and gave me the kind of feedback he would give an associate, presumably to see how I would handle it. It was a little weird at the time, but it turned out to be the most important part.

4. Get lots of practice, early and often. One of the smartest things I did was sign up for a bunch of school-sponsored pre-OCI interview fairs in NYC and Washington. I knew I had little or no chance at the firms I talked with, but I got the benefit of practicing my 20-minute spiel under a wide range of conditions. (For example, I got a couple of really terrible interviews out of the way, and I got exposure to 99% of the questions interviewers would ask me throughout the process.) This experience was extremely valuable during the higher-stakes interviews in Austin with firms I really wanted. My one mock interview with CSO was useful because I got honest feedback, but it was even better to start off with a bunch of low-pressure but real screeners.

keg411
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby keg411 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:50 pm

Veyron wrote:I don't see why that's difficult to believe unless you don't know anything about the main Penn mock interview program and are talking out your ass. To get back to my initial post, I'm not arguing that mock interviews are never useful but simply expressing surprise that people here think they are super useful for most people since that wad not my experience nor the experience of others I have spoken to. Now I will say they 1LOCI was actually pretty useful. Those interviews were much more similar to the ones I encountered during 2L recruiting than the mock interviews.


I don't go to Penn. How the fuck would I know what the Penn mock interview program is or that there even was one?

(And 1LOLCI is basically the same thing as doing a mock interview with a practicing attorney since no one gets hired through it anyway)

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Veyron
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:18 pm

keg411 wrote:
Veyron wrote:I don't see why that's difficult to believe unless you don't know anything about the main Penn mock interview program and are talking out your ass. To get back to my initial post, I'm not arguing that mock interviews are never useful but simply expressing surprise that people here think they are super useful for most people since that wad not my experience nor the experience of others I have spoken to. Now I will say they 1LOCI was actually pretty useful. Those interviews were much more similar to the ones I encountered during 2L recruiting than the mock interviews.


I don't go to Penn. How the fuck would I know what the Penn mock interview program is or that there even was one?

(And 1LOLCI is basically the same thing as doing a mock interview with a practicing attorney since no one gets hired through it anyway)


Since you claimed that I was mistaken as to the format of our mock interview program and its effectiveness, I figured you must know something about how it works at Penn. Guess not.

Also, at Penn, people get hired through 1LOCI. Perhaps because of this, the interviews are much more intensive and detailed then the mock interviews.

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ilovesf
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby ilovesf » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:55 am

Veyron wrote:Since you claimed that I was mistaken as to the format of our mock interview program and its effectiveness, I figured you must know something about how it works at Penn. Guess not.

Also, at Penn, people get hired through 1LOCI. Perhaps because of this, the interviews are much more intensive and detailed then the mock interviews.

Since you seem like a tool, I'm just going to point out how intelligent you are.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:52 am

ilovesf wrote:
Veyron wrote:Since you claimed that I was mistaken as to the format of our mock interview program and its effectiveness, I figured you must know something about how it works at Penn. Guess not.

Also, at Penn, people get hired through 1LOCI. Perhaps because of this, the interviews are much more intensive and detailed then the mock interviews.

Since you seem like a tool, I'm just going to point out how intelligent you are.


Shut up, bro. He's going to be second-chairing trials as a summer associate. Will you?



Don't think so.

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Guchster
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Guchster » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:56 am

ilovesf wrote:
Veyron wrote:Since you claimed that I was mistaken as to the format of our mock interview program and its effectiveness, I figured you must know something about how it works at Penn. Guess not.

Also, at Penn, people get hired through 1LOCI. Perhaps because of this, the interviews are much more intensive and detailed then the mock interviews.

Since you seem like a tool, I'm just going to point out how intelligent you are.

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Cupidity
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby Cupidity » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:47 pm

Get onto a journal. Even a secondary journal. It seems to me that the importance of having it has gone up recently, I was top 10% at BU/BC and had a ton of interviews and got no offers. I called a few of my callback interviewers to ask for feedback, and they all said they loved me, but they only took journal candidates.

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:43 pm

keg411 wrote:
Veyron wrote:I don't see why that's difficult to believe unless you don't know anything about the main Penn mock interview program and are talking out your ass. To get back to my initial post, I'm not arguing that mock interviews are never useful but simply expressing surprise that people here think they are super useful for most people since that wad not my experience nor the experience of others I have spoken to. Now I will say they 1LOCI was actually pretty useful. Those interviews were much more similar to the ones I encountered during 2L recruiting than the mock interviews.


I don't go to Penn. How the fuck would I know what the Penn mock interview program is or that there even was one?

(And 1LOLCI is basically the same thing as doing a mock interview with a practicing attorney since no one gets hired through it anyway)



I'm going to have to agree with Veyron on this one. I had a mock interview with hiring partners from a big firm in Texas. They were super nice and conducted a very pleasant interview. They said they were "extremely impressed" with me and had no criticisms. I had a real interview the next day; they asked real questions and it was nowhere near as successful.




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