Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

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Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:21 am

3 years ago they offered all their SA back.
2 years ago they offered none of the SA back.
last year they offered 50%

Is this generally par for the course?

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Bosque
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Bosque » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:3 years ago they offered all their SA back.
2 years ago they offered none of the SA back.
last year they offered 50%

Is this generally par for the course?


Three years ago yes.
Two years ago yes.
Last year, NO.

A bunch of firms were back up to 100% last year, after cutting the size of their summer class and reworking some of the problems that caused the no hire year. I would be a bit worried that your firm seems to have not been as successful at that.

That said, if it is this or nothing, take this. Just work your ass off.

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nealric
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby nealric » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:50 am

If you are choosing between them an a 100% offer firm, take the 100% offer firm. Otherwise, just work your butt off at that firm.

Sounds like the firm is a smaller one in a secondary market. That offer rate is pretty par for the course at such firms.

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:54 am

Is there an easy way to find 2010 SA offer rates? The NALP forms have 2009, and ATL has 2010 rates for some firms but not others.

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rayiner
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby rayiner » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:3 years ago they offered all their SA back.
2 years ago they offered none of the SA back.
last year they offered 50%

Is this generally par for the course?


Define "last year". Summer 2009 or summer 2010?

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Blindmelon
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3 years ago they offered all their SA back.
2 years ago they offered none of the SA back.
last year they offered 50%

Is this generally par for the course?


Sounds like you're going to get Bingham'ed.

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Bosque
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Bosque » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is there an easy way to find 2010 SA offer rates? The NALP forms have 2009, and ATL has 2010 rates for some firms but not others.


Ask the firm. If it is good, they will be happy to tell you. If it is bad, they will usually still tell you. If they DON'T tell you, you have your answer (and you should run away as fast as you can).

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20160810
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:32 pm

50% is not terribly meaningful unlress I know 50% of what. If they offered 1 of 2 SAs, I wouldn't really draw any conclusions therefrom. You never know if the second guy was just a bozo that they wouldn't have hired even in a great economy. 2 out of 4 is a little more concerning, because a firm should have an idea as to whether they are financially able to expand by 2 or 4 attornies in a given year. Even still, that might not be a dealbreaker for me, especially if I didn't have another offer from a 100% firm on the table. Once you start getting to 3 out of 6 or worse, it pretty much becomes an only-if-you-have-no-other-options thing.

I think hiring far more summers than you'll offer is a really dick move. I interviewed with a 30-person firm that told me they plan to hire 9 summers. When I pressed the interviewer as to whether the firm really intended to expand by 30% next year, he confessed that "3 or 4" were likely to get offers (which means 2) and that one of them was the managing partner's daughter who attends a T3 school. :roll: is not :roll: enough for toilet firm behavior like that.

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Bosque
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Bosque » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:49 pm

SBL wrote:50% is not terribly meaningful unlress I know 50% of what. If they offered 1 of 2 SAs, I wouldn't really draw any conclusions therefrom. You never know if the second guy was just a bozo that they wouldn't have hired even in a great economy. 2 out of 4 is a little more concerning, because a firm should have an idea as to whether they are financially able to expand by 2 or 4 attornies in a given year. Even still, that might not be a dealbreaker for me, especially if I didn't have another offer from a 100% firm on the table. Once you start getting to 3 out of 6 or worse, it pretty much becomes an only-if-you-have-no-other-options thing.

I think hiring far more summers than you'll offer is a really dick move. I interviewed with a 30-person firm that told me they plan to hire 9 summers. When I pressed the interviewer as to whether the firm really intended to expand by 30% next year, he confessed that "3 or 4" were likely to get offers (which means 2) and that one of them was the managing partner's daughter who attends a T3 school. :roll: is not :roll: enough for toilet firm behavior like that.


True, I assumed that since the OP was talking in percentages, the firm he/she is talking about hires enough SAs for the statistics to mean something. If there were only two SAs, I wouldn't worry too much. Ten? I would be worried.

If you know someone at the firm, ask them about the 50% offer rate. It could be very easily explained. To give an example, my firm from my 1L summer only offered permanant jobs to 50% of the 2Ls last year. However, there were only 4 of them. One of the summers no offered was a real stand up guy, but he split with the other big firm in town, and he was there a lot longer than he was at my firm. So his no offer, while surprising, is explainable. The other summer associate who was no offered was no a surprise to anyone. He was a terrible writer, incredibly unprofessional, and had the tendency to act like, well, a dick. So when you analyze it, the 50% offer rate is actually not so bad.
Last edited by Bosque on Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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D-ROCCA
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby D-ROCCA » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:50 pm

@SBL--That really is super lame. The fact that they planned on no-offering >50% of the SAs is garbage. What region was this firm located in?

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:46 pm

so last year was 2010 class- 50%. 2009 SA class 0% 2008 SA class 100%

SA at this firm is in the single digits.....

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:10 pm

Seems like if you had a better option, you wouldn't be here asking this question. Should you be worried? Maybe, but if you don't have an alternative lined up you just have to bite the bullet.


On a side note, I'm consistently amazed at the sense of entitlement law students have. How dare a firm treat the summer program like an extended interview? How dare they make me prove myself beyond screeners and call backs? Who do they think they are to hire four of us knowing they only want to hire the best two or three of us?

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3 years ago they offered all their SA back.
2 years ago they offered none of the SA back.
last year they offered 50%

Is this generally par for the course?

Do you have an offer with a 100% offer rate firm?

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Kohinoor
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:19 pm

SBL wrote:50% is not terribly meaningful unlress I know 50% of what. If they offered 1 of 2 SAs, I wouldn't really draw any conclusions therefrom. You never know if the second guy was just a bozo that they wouldn't have hired even in a great economy. 2 out of 4 is a little more concerning, because a firm should have an idea as to whether they are financially able to expand by 2 or 4 attornies in a given year. Even still, that might not be a dealbreaker for me, especially if I didn't have another offer from a 100% firm on the table. Once you start getting to 3 out of 6 or worse, it pretty much becomes an only-if-you-have-no-other-options thing.

I think hiring far more summers than you'll offer is a really dick move. I interviewed with a 30-person firm that told me they plan to hire 9 summers. When I pressed the interviewer as to whether the firm really intended to expand by 30% next year, he confessed that "3 or 4" were likely to get offers (which means 2) and that one of them was the managing partner's daughter who attends a T3 school. :roll: is not :roll: enough for toilet firm behavior like that.

At some of my screening interviews, the interviewers baldly admitted that ITE has shifted the balance of power back to them and the result in some cases is, rather than a reduction in class size (which would create pressure to extend a higher percentage of offers), large sizes with the intent to extend an unimpressive number of offers. With things the way they are, firms can really use the summer to window shop.

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:56 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:Seems like if you had a better option, you wouldn't be here asking this question. Should you be worried? Maybe, but if you don't have an alternative lined up you just have to bite the bullet.


On a side note, I'm consistently amazed at the sense of entitlement law students have. How dare a firm treat the summer program like an extended interview? How dare they make me prove myself beyond screeners and call backs? Who do they think they are to hire four of us knowing they only want to hire the best two or three of us?

Uh, nobody is demanding a job. Im saying that if the firm I interviewed with planned from the outset to no offer half its summers, they should be forthright about it, since the percentage of summers getting offers is a crucial criterion upon which we base our decisions and we have the right to make an informed choice. Getting the summer to offer ratio out of the guy was like pulling teeth.

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:05 pm

SBL wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:Seems like if you had a better option, you wouldn't be here asking this question. Should you be worried? Maybe, but if you don't have an alternative lined up you just have to bite the bullet.


On a side note, I'm consistently amazed at the sense of entitlement law students have. How dare a firm treat the summer program like an extended interview? How dare they make me prove myself beyond screeners and call backs? Who do they think they are to hire four of us knowing they only want to hire the best two or three of us?

Uh, nobody is demanding a job. Im saying that if the firm I interviewed with planned from the outset to no offer half its summers, they should be forthright about it, since the percentage of summers getting offers is a crucial criterion upon which we base our decisions and we have the right to make an informed choice. Getting the summer to offer ratio out of the guy was like pulling teeth.


Perhaps I should have been more clear. I agree that firms should make information like this available to us; that's only fair. My comment was directed at the people I see on this site who call a firm a TTT because they don't have a 100% offer rate.

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Bosque
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Bosque » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:07 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:On a side note, I'm consistently amazed at the sense of entitlement law students have. How dare a firm treat the summer program like an extended interview? How dare they make me prove myself beyond screeners and call backs? Who do they think they are to hire four of us knowing they only want to hire the best two or three of us?


It is not a sense of entitlement. It is a sense of fair play. This is NOT like an interview, where both parties are free to explore any and all options that are available. This is more of a trial period. The firms SHOULD feel free to no offer a candidate if they feel they are not a good fit/their work product sucks. However, they shouldn't go into the summer knowing they only plan on hiring 3 people out of a ten person class. Or at the very least, they should be upfront about their intentions to do this.

Easiest way I can illustrate the problem is through analogy. Imagine that you work in retail and a customer comes in, buys ten suits, and wears the heck out of them for the summer. Then, right before the 90 day guarantee (assume there is one at this store) is up, he comes back and returns seven of them just because he was only ever planning on keeping three. You would be pissed off, and rightly so. Sure, if one or two suits just didn't work out, you grumble, take them back and try and sell them on sale. You aren't happy, sure, but you were probably never going to be able to sell those suits at a premium anyway-there is something inherently defective about them.

But in this case, five of the suits this fiend is returning are extremely high quality-he just only wants three suits. Now you have to sell these extremely nice suits for a fraction of what they were worth. Sure, they might still be great quality, but no one is going to pay you original retail price for them. They are used! Someone else tried them out and returned them, so there just MUST be something wrong with them. Yes, they will still get sold-most likely someone will recognize what a good deal they are. But they won't be sold for what they are worth. And that is a waste of resources. It is inefficient. Yes, it might be clever of the original buyer, and it is certainly within his rights to do so. But that doesn't make him any less a jerk.

EDIT: Of course, if the guy told you at the start he only wanted three suits and you still pushed ten on him, you have only yourself to blame. Which might be the scenario you are actually talking about.
Last edited by Bosque on Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:09 pm

Bosque wrote:Easiest way I can illustrate the problem is through analogy. Imagine that you work in retail and a customer comes in, buys ten suits, and wears the heck out of them for the summer. Then, right before the 90 day guarantee (assume there is one at this store) is up, he comes back and returns seven of them just because he was only ever planning on keeping three. You would be pissed off, and rightly so. Sure, if one or two suits just didn't work out, you grumble, take them back and try and sell them on sale. You aren't happy, sure, but you were probably never going to be able to sell those suits at a premium anyway-there is something inherently defective about them.

But in this case, five of the suits this fiend is returning are extremely high quality-he just only wants three suits. Now you have to sell these extremely nice suits for a fraction of what they were worth. Sure, they might still be great quality, but no one is going to pay you original retail price for them. They are used! Someone else tried them out and returned them, so there just MUST be something wrong with them. Yes, they will still get sold-most likely someone will recognize what a good deal they are. But they won't be sold for what they are worth. And that is a waste of resources. It is inefficient. Yes, it might be clever of the original buyer, and it is certainly within his rights to do so. But that doesn't make him any less a jerk.

I like this analogy, except you're not the retail employee... you're the suit.

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Bosque
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Bosque » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:11 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Bosque wrote:Easiest way I can illustrate the problem is through analogy. Imagine that you work in retail and a customer comes in, buys ten suits, and wears the heck out of them for the summer. Then, right before the 90 day guarantee (assume there is one at this store) is up, he comes back and returns seven of them just because he was only ever planning on keeping three. You would be pissed off, and rightly so. Sure, if one or two suits just didn't work out, you grumble, take them back and try and sell them on sale. You aren't happy, sure, but you were probably never going to be able to sell those suits at a premium anyway-there is something inherently defective about them.

But in this case, five of the suits this fiend is returning are extremely high quality-he just only wants three suits. Now you have to sell these extremely nice suits for a fraction of what they were worth. Sure, they might still be great quality, but no one is going to pay you original retail price for them. They are used! Someone else tried them out and returned them, so there just MUST be something wrong with them. Yes, they will still get sold-most likely someone will recognize what a good deal they are. But they won't be sold for what they are worth. And that is a waste of resources. It is inefficient. Yes, it might be clever of the original buyer, and it is certainly within his rights to do so. But that doesn't make him any less a jerk.

I like this analogy, except you're not the retail employee... you're the suit.


Very true. I guess I should have said that explicitly, but I think most everyone will figure that out.

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D-ROCCA
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby D-ROCCA » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:12 pm

This particular argument by metaphor is credited.

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:19 pm

Again, I agree that firms should be up front about how many they plan to permanently hire. My issue is with those who I have seen elsewhere on this site call a firm a TTT because they only hire 3 of 10.

If a firm gives you the info up front, what is worn with a trial period?

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby nealric » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:26 pm

My comment was directed at the people I see on this site who call a firm a TTT because they don't have a 100% offer rate.


Well, other firms that are generally considered top tier give offers to all or substantially all of their summers. It's not a sense of entitlement, but a sense of rational self interest that one would consider the 100% offer firm before that firm. I wouldn't call it a TTT, but a firm that doesn't give 100% offers isn't going to be the first choice for most.

I don't think attitude is "how dare they!", but "why would you take that deal given other options?"

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:28 pm

nealric wrote:
My comment was directed at the people I see on this site who call a firm a TTT because they don't have a 100% offer rate.


Well, other firms that are generally considered top tier give offers to all or substantially all of their summers. It's not a sense of entitlement, but a sense of rational self interest that one would consider the 100% offer firm before that firm. I wouldn't call it a TTT, but a firm that doesn't give 100% offers isn't going to be the first choice for most.

I don't think attitude is "how dare they!", but "why would you take that deal given other options?"


And it shouldn't be if you have other options. I just don't think it makes the firm as a whole "bad."

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Bosque
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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby Bosque » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:44 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
nealric wrote:
My comment was directed at the people I see on this site who call a firm a TTT because they don't have a 100% offer rate.


Well, other firms that are generally considered top tier give offers to all or substantially all of their summers. It's not a sense of entitlement, but a sense of rational self interest that one would consider the 100% offer firm before that firm. I wouldn't call it a TTT, but a firm that doesn't give 100% offers isn't going to be the first choice for most.

I don't think attitude is "how dare they!", but "why would you take that deal given other options?"


And it shouldn't be if you have other options. I just don't think it makes the firm as a whole "bad."


No, but it DOES make them "bad for an incoming first year associate", which is the metric of bad we really care about at this point-and what people really mean when they say the firm is bad. This firm very well might do excellent work. Clients of this firm might love them. If you make it through the gauntlet of hiring, it might be a fantastic place to work. But from the perspective of a law student looking for a job, they are still bad.

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Re: Should I be worried accepting an offer at this firm?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:44 pm

nealric wrote:
My comment was directed at the people I see on this site who call a firm a TTT because they don't have a 100% offer rate.


Well, other firms that are generally considered top tier give offers to all or substantially all of their summers. It's not a sense of entitlement, but a sense of rational self interest that one would consider the 100% offer firm before that firm. I wouldn't call it a TTT, but a firm that doesn't give 100% offers isn't going to be the first choice for most.

I don't think attitude is "how dare they!", but "why would you take that deal given other options?"

This is precisely correct.

Firms which offer 3 of their 10 summers and aren't honest about it up front (such as the one with which I interviewed) are irredemable toilets; we all agree on this. However, even if the firm is very open about their plan to offer 3 out of 10, they're still probably pretty crappy, if nothing else but because everyone with any talent who has another option will take the other option. Why would top students from top schools go to a firm with a 30% offer rate when they could go to a market-paying firm with a 100% offer rate? It is virtually guaranteed that such a firm will not be able to recruit top talent, which by definition makes it a worse firm.

Also, let's not neglect to consider the actual summer experience. If I think that all of the other summers are going to become my coworkers, I'm going to have a great time socializing with them and getting to know them. If I know that by summer's end 7 of them are going to be toast and only 3 of us will be left standing, everyone is going to act like a cut-throat prick. Which one sounds to you like the more pleasant way to spend a summer?




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