What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

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Tree
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What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Tree » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:33 pm

Each year, some people are fortunate enough to get 2L summer positions at large firms. At the same time, there are always some who will get "no-offered."

What do these unfortunate people do? Would they have any chance at 3L OCI? Would they have a shot at public interest? Would they be a whole summer behind those who initially did public interest, despite the fact that many public interest folks are "no-offered" as a matter of course? Would these unlucky 3Ls have more valuable work experience than their peers?

What is actually the fate of those who get no-offered?


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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:14 am

Use summer money to set off debt and look for PD work. Nobody at a firm with less than 100% offer rate should be spending their SA money freely.

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:51 am

This is so utterly bleak. Especially given that it seems at least half of "T14" students are not going to make it into BigLaw.

The fact that we can't even get the public interest jobs we ultimately want to do (and we assumed would be for the taking: I mean, come on, surely people aren't killing each other to toil for the common good ... we thought) just adds another level to the massive "fuck you" the world is giving us.

theantiscalia
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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby theantiscalia » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:This is so utterly bleak. Especially given that it seems at least half of "T14" students are not going to make it into BigLaw.

The fact that we can't even get the public interest jobs we ultimately want to do (and we assumed would be for the taking: I mean, come on, surely people aren't killing each other to toil for the common good ... we thought) just adds another level to the massive "fuck you" the world is giving us.


Agreed. I think most of these students will eventually find work if they're coming from a top school (read: tiers one and two) and not towards the very bottom of the class (read: probably bottom 20%). They'll end up in small law or mid-law or document review. They may end up working in public interest, although as you noted, even that can be tough. The world isn't that bleak from the top tiers; at least you'll get a law job. At worst, you may have to wait until after the bar to find employment, or you may have to rely on IBR, but that won't even last for most students; lawyers do, on average, still make close to six figures even if not in Big Law. You won't starve.

However, a lot of lower tier students will probably end up never working in any legal field. They won't starve, either (thank to IBR), but they may never get that law job of their dreams.

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:15 am

TBF: At this point, if you get no-offered, it's basically your own fault - don't blame it on the economy. For the C/O 2010, that was not the case - many of those poor folks got caught up in "ITE no-offers." However, firms have reduced summer classes and are back to the expectation that they will bring everyone on (look at all of the 100% offer rates for the C/O 2011 for evidence of that).

So, the options aren't terribly good - and, for the most part, it's because you have demonstrated that you have a lower ability to do the work (at a quality level)/put in the hours/be personable/etc. than your peers. Will there be expections to that? Yes, probably. But, for those of you entering summer programs next summer: treat it like the extended job interview that it is, not some wine-and-dine event.

The one person who got no-offered at my summer firm simply wasn't up to snuff. He/she didn't put in the same hours, didn't do the same quality of work, didn't put the same energy in to meeting people at the firm. He/she assumed that his/her grades and school would carry him/her - and paid the price.

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Unemployed » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:TBF: At this point, if you get no-offered, it's basically your own fault - don't blame it on the economy. For the C/O 2010, that was not the case - many of those poor folks got caught up in "ITE no-offers." However, firms have reduced summer classes and are back to the expectation that they will bring everyone on (look at all of the 100% offer rates for the C/O 2011 for evidence of that).

So, the options aren't terribly good - and, for the most part, it's because you have demonstrated that you have a lower ability to do the work (at a quality level)/put in the hours/be personable/etc. than your peers. Will there be expections to that? Yes, probably. But, for those of you entering summer programs next summer: treat it like the extended job interview that it is, not some wine-and-dine event.

The one person who got no-offered at my summer firm simply wasn't up to snuff. He/she didn't put in the same hours, didn't do the same quality of work, didn't put the same energy in to meeting people at the firm. He/she assumed that his/her grades and school would carry him/her - and paid the price.


Or, if you have the option, go to a firm/office with a perfect record (even for c/o 2010).

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:02 am

theantiscalia wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This is so utterly bleak. Especially given that it seems at least half of "T14" students are not going to make it into BigLaw.

The fact that we can't even get the public interest jobs we ultimately want to do (and we assumed would be for the taking: I mean, come on, surely people aren't killing each other to toil for the common good ... we thought) just adds another level to the massive "fuck you" the world is giving us.


Agreed. I think most of these students will eventually find work if they're coming from a top school (read: tiers one and two) and not towards the very bottom of the class (read: probably bottom 20%). They'll end up in small law or mid-law or document review. They may end up working in public interest, although as you noted, even that can be tough. The world isn't that bleak from the top tiers; at least you'll get a law job. At worst, you may have to wait until after the bar to find employment, or you may have to rely on IBR, but that won't even last for most students; lawyers do, on average, still make close to six figures even if not in Big Law. You won't starve.

However, a lot of lower tier students will probably end up never working in any legal field. They won't starve, either (thank to IBR), but they may never get that law job of their dreams.


I would like to believe you, but I heard that if you're not making BigLaw money, you're making something like 50K/year for BigLaw hours (if in private practice). I've basically given up on V100 firms, and now I'm just trying desperately to swing something that pays vaguely market-ish salary. Are you saying that even if we end up in Spring OCI, we can get six figures? That's surely not true.

... and this is a good time to insert another OCS gripe: even at this stage, we are so utterly unaware of how this bizarre legal market works. I don't know what kind of firms recruit when. I thought it was "fall OCI is the only time for market-esque salaries; after that, you get 50-60K with "s***law" at Spring OCI; if you fail that, you will repeat 1L summer your 2L year and graduate a leper whom no one will speak to". If it's really not that bad, I would love to hear confirmation. I'll keep trying, but it would be nice to know that it's not quite so bimodal as all that. (Although even if it is, at least elitism and irrational preference for my fancy-shmancy T14 degree and grades might help me go straight into some kind of PI I want to do.)

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby edcrane » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:TBF: At this point, if you get no-offered, it's basically your own fault - don't blame it on the economy. For the C/O 2010, that was not the case - many of those poor folks got caught up in "ITE no-offers." However, firms have reduced summer classes and are back to the expectation that they will bring everyone on (look at all of the 100% offer rates for the C/O 2011 for evidence of that).

So, the options aren't terribly good - and, for the most part, it's because you have demonstrated that you have a lower ability to do the work (at a quality level)/put in the hours/be personable/etc. than your peers. Will there be expections to that? Yes, probably. But, for those of you entering summer programs next summer: treat it like the extended job interview that it is, not some wine-and-dine event.

The one person who got no-offered at my summer firm simply wasn't up to snuff. He/she didn't put in the same hours, didn't do the same quality of work, didn't put the same energy in to meeting people at the firm. He/she assumed that his/her grades and school would carry him/her - and paid the price.


This is probably approximately correct for large NY firms in good financial condition. But it's definitely not true for some boutiques and regional firms who typically "over hire" summer associates with the expectation that offers will only be made to a fraction of them.

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:41 pm

I feel you OP- you bust your ass 1L year to finish top 5%, waste two weeks of your summer doing the write-on to get LR, and no one is willing to give you a chance to start your career. I feel like its all over before it even started.

Now I have no motivation to study which will probably tank my grades this semester, I'm spending all of my free time working on menial LR crap that I don't enjoy and dealing with LR psychos who have memorized the Bluebook.

OMG I wish I had never gone to law school

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Bosque » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:01 pm

edcrane wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:TBF: At this point, if you get no-offered, it's basically your own fault - don't blame it on the economy. For the C/O 2010, that was not the case - many of those poor folks got caught up in "ITE no-offers." However, firms have reduced summer classes and are back to the expectation that they will bring everyone on (look at all of the 100% offer rates for the C/O 2011 for evidence of that).

So, the options aren't terribly good - and, for the most part, it's because you have demonstrated that you have a lower ability to do the work (at a quality level)/put in the hours/be personable/etc. than your peers. Will there be expections to that? Yes, probably. But, for those of you entering summer programs next summer: treat it like the extended job interview that it is, not some wine-and-dine event.

The one person who got no-offered at my summer firm simply wasn't up to snuff. He/she didn't put in the same hours, didn't do the same quality of work, didn't put the same energy in to meeting people at the firm. He/she assumed that his/her grades and school would carry him/her - and paid the price.


This is probably approximately correct for large NY firms in good financial condition. But it's definitely not true for some boutiques and regional firms who typically "over hire" summer associates with the expectation that offers will only be made to a fraction of them.


I will agree about regional firms. But from my experience, the boutiques I know of try even harder to make sure they are at or as close as possible to 100% offers. They, even more so than the big firms, survive on their good reputation, since the work is so specialized.

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby edcrane » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:06 pm

Bosque wrote:
edcrane wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:TBF: At this point, if you get no-offered, it's basically your own fault - don't blame it on the economy. For the C/O 2010, that was not the case - many of those poor folks got caught up in "ITE no-offers." However, firms have reduced summer classes and are back to the expectation that they will bring everyone on (look at all of the 100% offer rates for the C/O 2011 for evidence of that).

So, the options aren't terribly good - and, for the most part, it's because you have demonstrated that you have a lower ability to do the work (at a quality level)/put in the hours/be personable/etc. than your peers. Will there be expections to that? Yes, probably. But, for those of you entering summer programs next summer: treat it like the extended job interview that it is, not some wine-and-dine event.

The one person who got no-offered at my summer firm simply wasn't up to snuff. He/she didn't put in the same hours, didn't do the same quality of work, didn't put the same energy in to meeting people at the firm. He/she assumed that his/her grades and school would carry him/her - and paid the price.


This is probably approximately correct for large NY firms in good financial condition. But it's definitely not true for some boutiques and regional firms who typically "over hire" summer associates with the expectation that offers will only be made to a fraction of them.


I will agree about regional firms. But from my experience, the boutiques I know of try even harder to make sure they are at or as close as possible to 100% offers. They, even more so than the big firms, survive on their good reputation, since the work is so specialized.


To be honest, the only boutiques I've looked into were focused on tax. It could very well be that IP and lit boutiques are different.

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Re: What are options for those who get "no-offered"??

Postby Bosque » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:51 pm

edcrane wrote:
Bosque wrote:I will agree about regional firms. But from my experience, the boutiques I know of try even harder to make sure they are at or as close as possible to 100% offers. They, even more so than the big firms, survive on their good reputation, since the work is so specialized.


To be honest, the only boutiques I've looked into were focused on tax. It could very well be that IP and lit boutiques are different.


Well, IP Boutiques are where I draw my experience from, so I guess I would agree with you.




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